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nape

3rd link question

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nape

Any chance of putting together a point system for cars with 3rd link rear suspensions that penetrate the floor pan?

 

Now that AI is possibly open tire for the year, I'd like the chance to run ST2 if the AI car count isn't there and maybe supersize at Nationals.

 

I know it's hard to ask for a mid-season change, but I didn't realize it wasn't legal until a month or so ago. At least we could get the ball rolling for next year if it's a possibility.

 

Thanks.

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gbrown8439

I have been wondering about this also TJ. I assume you are referencing this part of the ST rules:

 

Relocation of suspension mounting points, modification and/or

relocation of the firewall with engine relocation ten (10) inches or less, and modified

K(cross)-members are all permitted. Floorpan modifications to include items such as

subframe connectors, roll cage bracing, and fuel cell placement may be approved on a

case-by-case basis by the National ST Director. Such modifications will be subject to

approval and possible modification factor assessments.

 

I would like to think something like this could be approved without a modification factor considering we are trying to make early 80's suspension compete with new Corvettes and Vipers.

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Greg G.

This was requested in mid February by another driver, and the NASA Executives decided that these modifications were not going to be permitted in ST. They are legal in STR. So, as far as Supersizing goes, STR2 is the choice for AI cars with these mods of the floor pan.

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nape

Not the answer I was hoping for, but I can understand NASA's position.

 

If I was able to re-work the 3rd link so that it didn't penetrate the floor pan and the boxed opening left from the 3rd link coming forward was closed off, would that be legal for ST2?

 

A solution would be to make a mount off the fuel cell bracing and flip the link over. Would that fit the intent of the rules?

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Greg G.

TJ,

 

I believe that if you repaired the floor back to OEM equivalent that it would be legal.

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nape

Well, I'd want to leave that opening for when I run AI. I'm just trying to figure out how to play in the ST2 sandbox when the AI car counts are down so I still have someone to race against.

 

I have no desire to completely re-build the car and run ST2 only, just trying to figure out how to have fun regionally.

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John Graber

TJ,

The MW Region has a bunch of STR2 cars you can run against.....

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Greg G.

STR2

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kbrew8991

why couldn't you tack weld, rivet, or screw in a panel as the "repair" and then remove it later to convert back to AI specs?

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nape
why couldn't you tack weld, rivet, or screw in a panel as the "repair" and then remove it later to convert back to AI specs?

 

I had to build a box to seal the floor pan and provide clearance at full bump travel and it's obviously not OEM. Just trying to think ahead so that if I do want to supersize at Nats, I won't have to worry about weenie protests for not having an OEM part of the floor pan.

 

STR2 would be a good solution regionally. I never really thought about it since they usually run with the Lightning race group, but the times aren't too far off.

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Greg G.

TJ, a lot of the ST2 cars Supersize to STR2 at the Championships anyway. So, unless AI and STR2 are in the same race, you have that option.

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Vettedoctor

TJ,

Bryan probably won't let you run STR2 in our region, we wanted to run STR2 a few times last year because the car counts in ST2 were low but he didn't want Geff running in Lightning.

Ken Smith tried it at Autobahn and everyone jumped out of class. Just thought I'd give you a heads up in case you try it. So far this year the car counts for ST2 have been good so if you can I would try to make that work.

No offense to anyone but, the STR2 class in our region isn't putting down lap times anywhere near what the ST2 cars are - they're typically about 3 seconds off.

Joel

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Greg G.

Joel,

 

John Graber is the ST Director in the GL and MW regions, and he just said that TJ could run in STR2. My understanding is that the class is getting faster and better.

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John Graber

GL/MW STR2 is coming around. The issue we have is that the STR2 cars running are very low torque cars, often with lousy tires, and struggle at the starts of the thunder races. There were also a group of young up and comers who were learning the ropes. STR has been running in the Lightning group and doing ok. At Mid Ohio two weeks ago we only had one STR car, new driver, and he ran in the Lightning group. Ultimately it is the Race Directors choice to run STR in the Thunder or Lightning. Perhaps the solution if others jump to STR would be to run them in Thunder. We will see at the up coming events. Races with slow cars and fast cars happen all the time and you learn your craft to work through it. When we have T&T days or single race group days it is not uncommon for my 140HP GTS1 car to be out there against a 1000HP AIX/SU car.

 

This summers events, July & August at Mid Ohio, should have three race groups so that would more evenly spread out the cars.

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Vettedoctor

I was just informing TJ what has happened in the past, John may be the ST director but at most MW region events Bryan has made the decisions such as what run group STR runs in - and in some cases who can run in the class. I just wanted to give TJ a heads up that if he wants to run STR that there may be a chance that other cars will jump out of class or he may even be told that he can't run STR - even if he is perfrectly legal for STR. I'm just sharing what has happened in the past, if things will be different in the future great!

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IGZOSTD

I guess this would be a question for Greg. If the car in Nationally legal for STR, how is it that a Regional director keeps it out of STR2 or STR1 for that matter.

Asking because there are plenty of stick axel cars that have the long 3 links that have been banned from ST. Mine included.

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Greg G.

2.12 Officials / Rules Hierarchy

This section is intended to clarify hierarchy among some officials and rules. Where there is a conflict, the following order should be used. Each item on this list supersedes the prior listed item whenever there is a conflict:

Club Codes and Regulations

Class Rules

Local or Event Supplemental Rules

Drivers' Meeting Information

Orders From Officials

Race Director

Executive Director

Medical Staff (with regards to patient care and their duties).

 

The Race Directors obviously have a fair amount of autonomy as you can see above. Any decision by a Race Director can be appealed to the National level per 17.5.4 of the CCR. So, the Race Director may be able to exclude any driver from any class if there is an appropriate reason. But, that decision could be appealed to Jerry Kunzman through the proper procedures. In fact, the Regional Director can exclude any driver from participating in that region at all. So, without getting into details, there may be a specific situation where such a decision may be appropriate. Furthermore, any driver that is not paying for racing registration fees due to instructing, officiating, or some other arrangements made by the Regional Director would be subject to the decision of that Regional Director (or his proxy Race Director) as to where and when that gratuity is provided. I do not see why there would be any type of "blanket" decision to exclude certain vehicles from competing in a class that they are legal for under the class rules.

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Bryancohnracing

I guess I best chime in here!

 

As Race Director, I have not excluded anyone from a class or not allowed a driver to run a class. What I did do was explain to an out of region driver that cherry picking contingency dollars AND points in the midst of a heated STR2 championship series wasn't "right". Our regular STR2 MW drivers in the class decided to switch to a Fun Run so that no one in the class gained or lost points or contingency. The driver in question ran in STR2 alone and did not score any contingency. The collective regular drivers asked me if they could do what they were proposing, which they could as long as they met the CCR rules and the NASA MW Supp Regs, which they did. I did sign off on their change to Fun Run from STR2.

 

The same driver at Putnam Park the previous October entered a class (not his normal class) in order to cherry pick contingency. I explained that his choice of class could mess up a possible championship points battle. After having to apply heavy pressure, in the end, he changed out of the class to an uncontested points class, won and got the contingency he desired.

 

STR2 has been one of the strongest classes in MW at some events, only surpassed by SM on several occasion. As noted, at one point 4 of the drivers in the class were under the age of 18 and new to road racing (all had lots of oval experience).

At this time we will take things on a race by race basis as far as where the class races. If we lean toward more large cars than the Legend and Thunder Roadsters, then the Thunder group it is.

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IGZOSTD

Thanks Greg.

Bryan that make perfect sense. Sorry if it sounded like I was throwing stones. I can only hope my regions ST and STR classes had that kind of competition. Looks like you did what was right for the region.

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nape

Just bringing this back to the top in hopes the rule makers will understand some of us mullet drivers would like to run against the 'Vettes.

 

Oh, and AI and STR2 did run together at Nats, so no chance to supersize.

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IGZOSTD

Because my car was among those banned, I just upped the HP to play in SU. To much work to back track changing the suspension back to stock type.

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wstukas

What exactly is not allowed in a 3 link? Protruding through the floor? Or mounting to the floor? I just built a 3 link for my American Iron car with the hopes that it will be ST2 legal should I choose to ever go that route. The link itself, nor the mount protrudes through the floor. The backing plate on the inside of the car is tied into the cage. The only modification to the factory floorpan was (4) 3/8" diameter holes drilled for bolting the 3 link chassis mount to the interior backing plate.

 

This should be legal in ST2...right?

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Greg G.

Will,

 

Floorpan mods are not permitted unless they are the ones that are specifically listed in the ST Rules. Floorpan mods are wide open in STR. I think we will be seeing more cars in STR in the future as well. So, your mods do not sound legal in ST, but if you want to send some detailed photos by e-mail, we can take a look.

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wstukas

Greg,

 

Email sent regarding this. I hope I will be allowed to come play in ST2 next year.

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