AI RM is unofficially dead!

[mustcone347]

ah...so, you are saying bring a nice car and give it away?

 

question: if i pay somebody to install my engine because i dont have those skills or equipment while another guy can do it himself, does the guy doing his own work have to claim the street value of the work?

 

if i sell a sponsorship for my car that brings me parts and labor at no cash charge, do i have to claim the retail value of that?

 

are we back to requiring that you build your own car to be a real AI participant?

 

 

There was nothing serious about the "claimer" statement thats what we call sarcasm in our neck of the woods. It was more of a point to make everyone think/diccuss what the average price of an AI car is nation wide, and maybe adjust our thinking of making the rules follow the middle of the road not the extremes. That way the '79 Mustang/Camaro can run aong with the 2011 Mustang/Camaro with neither being at a huge advantage or disadvantage.

 

We all know that the "Street Value" of a race car is pennies on the dollar, so therefore my initial statement regarding "Claimer" was in jest.

 

and yes there is some faction of AI drivers who probably feel that you should build what you race, at least thats what real die hard amateur racers do.

 

(IMHO if you didnt have some major part in building your own car besides writing a check you are a................. on second thought I will keep my opinion to myself you know would want to offend anyone)

[svttim]

ah...so, you are saying bring a nice car and give it away?

 

question: if i pay somebody to install my engine because i dont have those skills or equipment while another guy can do it himself, does the guy doing his own work have to claim the street value of the work?

 

if i sell a sponsorship for my car that brings me parts and labor at no cash charge, do i have to claim the retail value of that?

 

are we back to requiring that you build your own car to be a real AI participant?

 

 

There was nothing serious about the "claimer" statement thats what we call sarcasm in our neck of the woods. It was more of a point to make everyone think/diccuss what the average price of an AI car is nation wide, and maybe adjust our thinking of making the rules follow the middle of the road not the extremes. That way the '79 Mustang/Camaro can run aong with the 2011 Mustang/Camaro with neither being at a huge advantage or disadvantage.

 

We all know that the "Street Value" of a race car is pennies on the dollar, so therefore my initial statement regarding "Claimer" was in jest.

 

and yes there is some faction of AI drivers who probably feel that you should build what you race, at least thats what real die hard amateur racers do.

 

(IMHO if you didnt have some major part in building your own car besides writing a check you are a................. on second thought I will keep my opinion to myself you know would want to offend anyone)

 

Spoken like a true poster boy of the "old AI

[robbodleimages]

yes there is some faction of AI drivers who probably feel that you should build what you race, at least thats what real die hard amateur racers do.

 

(IMHO if you didnt have some major part in building your own car besides writing a check you are a................. on second thought I will keep my opinion to myself you know would want to offend anyone)

 

edit: thats a really bad attitude.

[marshallmosty]

Guys,

Some folks have the time and talent to engineer/build/maintain their own car from scratch. Others don't (for whatever reasons). We don't need to be pointing the shoo didley didley finger at those who choose to open their checkbook to race.

 

At the end of the day it's about car count and having fun. If I can take my "built from scratch" '89 hatch and wax a S197 (or any other platform for that matter) all over the track... That's what it's all about, right?

 

The whole point of several of the last posts is you don't "need" a 50K car to win.

 

Those who have the means to show up with a brand new 302R, good for your financial situation. You are going to have to fight just as hard as the guy with 20K in his car...

 

 

Wasn't this discussion about ABS anyway?

[sundialracing]

[ Heres a challenge, take a comprehensive pole on how much every AI guy has in his or her car(approximate of course), divide by the total number of drivers poled and start a "claimer class" based on the average value...................that combined with Power to Weight would create true parity in the AI field.

 

And we can call it USSR...

 

United Socialist Sports Racing......

[sundialracing]

[ (IMHO if you didnt have some major part in building your own car besides writing a check you are a................. on second thought I will keep my opinion to myself you know would want to offend anyone)

 

Wow,

 

I guess that's my official greeting into AI.

 

So because my talents are business related instead of mechanical I am not welcome.... Interesting..

 

Can you tell me what page of the AI rules that one is on??

 

Dude you just made it personal.

[robbodleimages]

Wasn't this discussion about ABS anyway?

 

Best I can tell part of the ABS argument is a cover for this stuff. If you go back thru these threads this attitude has come up with regularity.

[marshallmosty]

Wasn't this discussion about ABS anyway?

 

Best I can tell part of the ABS argument is a cover for this stuff. If you go back thru these threads this attitude has come up with regularity.

Rob, I know... I was just trying to put this thrad back on some semblance of the original track it was on before people started attacking each other for their fab skills vs car cost vs whatever.

 

Geez guys, we need to get along!

[svttim]

[ (IMHO if you didnt have some major part in building your own car besides writing a check you are a................. on second thought I will keep my opinion to myself you know would want to offend anyone)

 

Wow,

 

I guess that's my official greeting into AI.

 

So because my talents are business related instead of mechanical I am not welcome.... Interesting..

 

Can you tell me what page of the AI rules that one is on??

 

Dude you just made it personal.

 

 

I wouldnt call it Official

 

The reception at the track was much more possitive than here on the forum. But, I expect forums to be a bit rougher. I find myself behind with my 197. Im not at or near the HP/weight ratio. I bought my car for HPDE, I dont have the talent or equipment to build my own and I really dont have the money either. I work hard to scrape together enough to be able to pull this off and I need a bit more for a powerplant. But, Im not going to complain. Im having a great time and I dont need the sanctioning body to legislate me into competitiveness. Ill hold my own, thank you

 

The apeal to the powers for changes in ABS rules has nothing to do with car count. Its a perception that some have and, while I understand some truly believe it is a big advantage, its a perception without data and fact.

 

Here's an idea(trying to be positive here). Have a couple shops (GM and Ford) put together packages for AI, Anything from a BIW to a fully built car and everything in between. If you have the talent to start from scratch, you would not have to deal with the shops. If you can hang suspension, start there, build you own motor, start there. If you have your own shop, use them. If its about car count, make it easier and less expensive to get in. AI needs to be marketed.

 

But, lets not fool ourselves, anyway you go at this, it costs.

[supermac]

 

 

The apeal to the powers for changes in ABS rules has nothing to do with car count. Its a perception that some have and, while I understand some truly believe it is a big advantage, its a perception without data and fact.

 

 

Sorry I just couldn't let this one go. The RM region of nasa lost 5 AI cars this year for one reason and one reason only ABS! That is a fact with data to back it up. This was not because of the economy, as everyone of these guys spent money to backpedal thier cars to CMC, Tommy built a whole new car. It would have been far cheaper for us to stay in AI.

 

Is your other point that ABS is not an advantage? Great then pull the fuse and lets go racing! F1 doesn't have it, why do you need it?

 

I would like to challenge anybody, to give me three rules changes that were instituted to accomodate a GM platform?

 

I can give you 3 Ford related ones. My favorite is the "my car is to fat, I need 14" brakes to slow it down" Raybob and Tommys first years in AI thier cars wieghed over #3400 pounds.Can you imagine if they would have asked for bigger brakes? Last year they had to add ballast to get them up to 3200.

 

Or how bout the I need 18" wheel to cover my big ass brakes and now 18" tires are so expensive. We need a new tire sponsor. Since your obvious business ability has allowed you to buy a really nice car, use some of that dough to go buy some tires and if you have to run 888's, bummer, you should have followed the rules that were in place. Robin Burnett got it done and last time I checked he was pretty fast.

 

Or how bout the "raise the tranny price right before nationals"

 

Or the let me chop the entire front of my car off and weld on a far superior front suspension on my car? What ever happened to run what you brung and deal with the shortcomings of your platform?

 

Sundial you brought up the USSR quote, funny you should say that, you know that AI is a based on a somewhat socialist model right? I mean if it were a free for all, it would be called Super Unlimited and then you could gripe about how the other cars were better.

 

You wanna keep your ABS? Fine, then give us something that is easy for us, raise the horsepower. It is very easy for an LSx to get 500rwhp, is it easy for you? No? Well now you know how we feel.

 

Cody Powell

[robbodleimages]

i think you fail to understand something about robin or are not willing to acknowledge it. there are ways to get an advantage on your competition. one is to have skills to fabricate and build stuff that other people can't. another is to have the bank account to buy it. a third is to be connected to get things many competitors can't get for nothing or for enough less that you can make it work on a small budget.

 

robin is both skilled and connected. he gets things some cant get at all. he knows people that most of us dont have access to. he has a sponsor. he has the skills and knowledge to take full advantage of all that stuff.

 

for the umteenth time. robin's wheels, last i saw, were custom drilled corvette wheels. he was the only guy that had them and had access to them. were he to do that with an ABS system, there would be a line of people here trying to pull it out of his car. but because those wheels backup someone's idea of what is right about something, they are held up as an example to ridicule others.

 

i am a fan of robin and steeda. his race car is a steeda poster child for a reason.

[supermac]

a third is to be connected to get things many competitors can't get for nothing or for enough less that you can make it work on a small budget.

 

 

 

 

The EXACT reason the non s-197 camp is so pissed about ABS. You can't have it both ways.

 

for the umteenth time. robin's wheels, last i saw, were custom drilled corvette wheels. he was the only guy that had them and had access to them. were he to do that with an ABS system, there would be a line of people here trying to pull it out of his car. but because those wheels backup someone's idea of what is right about something, they are held up as an example to ridicule others.

 

 

So you can afford a $90k car but you can't afford a set of $2500 CCW's ?

[robbodleimages]

1. I never complained about Robin's equipment and his connections. I admire Robin and regularly pick his brain for anything that I can learn. I dont complain that his stuff should be illegal. I was just pointing out to you that using him and his stuff as an example of what you want is also and example of what you dont want.

 

2. A $90K car? Where? I rescued a team built FR500C that a team stripped what they wanted off of it and left it for deralict. I got it in a trade as a little more than a throw in. I put it back together on a shoe string budget. To answer your question, no I can't afford a $2500 set of CCW's and we all know you need more than 4 anyway.

 

Don't be so quick to judge. What you see on the surface is often far from the full story.

 

You see, I am a little connected. The only way I get to the race track at all is beg borrow and...ok, i dont steal. I trade and swap and hunt for bargains. Thats the hard work that I put in so that I can race. Its of no more value, but certainly no less value than your mechanical skills.

[svttim]

 

 

The apeal to the powers for changes in ABS rules has nothing to do with car count. Its a perception that some have and, while I understand some truly believe it is a big advantage, its a perception without data and fact.

 

Sorry I just couldn't let this one go. The RM region of nasa lost 5 AI cars this year for one reason and one reason only ABS! That is a fact with data to back it up. This was not because of the economy, as everyone of these guys spent money to backpedal thier cars to CMC, Tommy built a whole new car. It would have been far cheaper for us to stay in AI.

 

I didnt say naything about why cars left in this post, just said it was not as big an advantage as you want everyone to think

Is your other point that ABS is not an advantage? Great then pull the fuse and lets go racing! F1 doesn't have it, why do you need it?

So, I can just pulll my fuse and it wont affect anything else?? Wow, your knowledge of the for system is outstanding

I would like to challenge anybody, to give me three rules changes that were instituted to accomodate a GM platform?

 

I can give you 3 Ford related ones. My favorite is the "my car is to fat, I need 14" brakes to slow it down" Raybob and Tommys first years in AI thier cars wieghed over #3400 pounds.Can you imagine if they would have asked for bigger brakes? Last year they had to add ballast to get them up to 3200.

 

Or how bout the I need 18" wheel to cover my big ass brakes and now 18" tires are so expensive. We need a new tire sponsor. Since your obvious business ability has allowed you to buy a really nice car, use some of that dough to go buy some tires and if you have to run 888's, bummer, you should have followed the rules that were in place. Robin Burnett got it done and last time I checked he was pretty fast.

 

Funny, thats the way the car comes from tht factory. Seems like you have an issue with GM management,not NASA

Or how bout the "raise the tranny price right before nationals"

 

Or the let me chop the entire front of my car off and weld on a far superior front suspension on my car? What ever happened to run what you brung and deal with the shortcomings of your platform?

 

Sundial you brought up the USSR quote, funny you should say that, you know that AI is a based on a somewhat socialist model right? I mean if it were a free for all, it would be called Super Unlimited and then you could gripe about how the other cars were better.

 

You wanna keep your ABS? Fine, then give us something that is easy for us, raise the horsepower. It is very easy for an LSx to get 500rwhp, is it easy for you? No? Well now you know how we feel.

Actually, it isnt that hard with the Boss 302, but Im sure youll want to ban that too

Cody Powell

[Tommy55]

This has gotten way to personal. This is about the future of AI and where we all percieve it going. We in the RM Region had some really good racing in AI. The point is we are all here to race. Whether you can buy your race car or build your race car it doesn't matter. We all just want to race in a competitive class thats fairly equal for all platforms. We realize the rules have to change with technology and I think we can all agree to that. All we ( us guys in the RM region) want to do is keep it as fair as we can for all platforms and build up the class so everyone can have a race. Let's get back to the point of getting the data we need to keep it fair for all platforms. If a platform contiuously wins in a racing series don't they get weight added or restricted to make it more fair. How many F_bodies have won nationals???? I was just wondering, because I know we have pretty much exhausted ALL our resources to get them on the podium from all different regions.

[DuckTapeRacing]

Piss and Moan

Makes me wanna gag. ABS is not the issue, really, truth be known. Nobody's twisting one's arm on their choice of car to race.

The advantage is money saved by not flat spotting tires in the heat of battle. The systems are cheaper then the the tires you waste in the course of a season A competitive car with a good driver is gonna win races ABS or no ABS.

If one took half the energy spent complaining and put it into prepping the car properly or maybe some driving lessons they could be running in the front of the pack...

Theres whiners and theres do-ers and it's an individuals choice.

If ya wanna run with the dogs ya better learn to do your business in the tall grass

Stick a fork in me I'm done.

[svttim]

This has gotten way to personal. This is about the future of AI and where we all percieve it going. We in the RM Region had some really good racing in AI. The point is we are all here to race. Whether you can buy your race car or build your race car it doesn't matter. We all just want to race in a competitive class thats fairly equal for all platforms. We realize the rules have to change with technology and I think we can all agree to that. All we ( us guys in the RM region) want to do is keep it as fair as we can for all platforms and build up the class so everyone can have a race. Let's get back to the point of getting the data we need to keep it fair for all platforms. If a platform contiuously wins in a racing series don't they get weight added or restricted to make it more fair. How many F_bodies have won nationals???? I was just wondering, because I know we have pretty much exhausted ALL our resources to get them on the podium from all different regions.

 

I think you have to consider, GM abandoned the platform for how many years? Thats a huge gap where there was no platform and no advancements in the platform. Surely, the new Camaro platform is much more advanced than any of the F bodies out there at this point, not unlike the 197. How long do you hold the series back because a manufacturer discontinues a model?

[tacovini]

Guys....let's keep it civil. I check out for a few days and it seems everyone gets at each other's throat. While ABS is a factor, it isn't THE reason "RM AI is unofficially dead".

 

Lots of good stuff is going on behind the scenes on tires and contingencies. We're hoping the GM suppliers can step up to the plate soon, but we continue to evaluate things.

 

Speaking of evaluating things, the Hallett Summer Shootout is coming up next month and we expect to have 30+ AI-CMC fields once again. Texas AI Series Director Marshall Mosty is leading the charge to try and get some relevant ABS data and I will work with him to continue to evaluate different platforms.

 

I think this thread has lived it's useful life and I'm going to lock it. Regarding the comments about "censorship", I can assure you guys that neither JWL or myself have deleted any posts in this thread. We were both confused by the comments, so check with your internet provider. Not to say that if your comments are damaging to the series or to the sanctioning body we won't delete them, however, we typically have some communications about it. Hasn't happened in a while though.

 

Time for me to catch up on some of the other threads....

 

-=- Todd