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During the TT are there other cars on the track


Chuckster

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I have done TT's with PCA. The TT is separate from the HPDE. You have only one car on the track at a time or so far seperated that the 2 cars never pass one another.

 

From the description I've seen the TT is run with other cars on the track. How would this be different than wheel to wheel racing

 

Thanks for the clarification,

 

The Chuckster

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yes...lots of cars on the track.... passing on the straights only...no signals needed... I would guess your car insurance does NOT cover this event since it is timed.... there were about 15-20 cars at the time trial at Summit Point... no problems.

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  • 1 month later...

TT also depends on the region. In Socal, TT runs with HPDE4 which means unlimited passing. There really is not much difference between this and racing expect that the cars are usually less modified.

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And there is no "start" nor are you racing another car for position. Driving side by side with someone will just slow you down (since you are going for best time only) and doing so should only be to complete a safe pass.

 

This group is for the most experienced drivers pretty much ready to race but dont want to make the jump or spend the time or money

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  • 6 months later...

Or for those that have jumped to racing, but couldn't afford to keep it up so have resorted back to the lesser go fast crack addiction of HPDE TT.

 

I can assure you, HPDE TT is NOTHING like racing.

 

Traffic management is something that needs to be learned in HPDE or Race groups so either way it is good experience. I doubt there is enough time in a day to do limited cars on track to ensure a "clear" lap. I ran with TCRA who used to do that and the Time Trails took up most of the day. So basically one day I got 3 laps -- just not a good use of my time or money. I prefer NASA's approach to TT.

 

Rob.

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  • 3 weeks later...

 

I can assure you, HPDE TT is NOTHING like racing.

Comparing an HPDE time trial to actual wheel to wheel racing where the passes involve positions being changed therefore dictating the scoring is like comparing apples to oranges.
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  • 1 year later...
I have done TT's with PCA. The TT is separate from the HPDE. You have only one car on the track at a time or so far seperated that the 2 cars never pass one another.

 

From the description I've seen the TT is run with other cars on the track. How would this be different than wheel to wheel racing

 

Thanks for the clarification,

 

The Chuckster

 

I agree with Chuckster. This format, though not NEARLY wheel to wheel racing, is far closer to that, than it is to AutoX. If the goal of TT is to, in a sense, provide a bridge between AutoX and RR, it's important that there's not a whole lot of traffic to deal with.

 

In the stricktest sense, time trials is a measure of how fast a given car and given driver can get around a given track with no obstructions or traffic. That's the logical step between AutoX and RR. That's my take.

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I agree with Chuckster. This format, though not NEARLY wheel to wheel racing, is far closer to that, than it is to AutoX. If the goal of TT is to, in a sense, provide a bridge between AutoX and RR, it's important that there's not a whole lot of traffic to deal with.

 

In the stricktest sense, time trials is a measure of how fast a given car and given driver can get around a given track with no obstructions or traffic. That's the logical step between AutoX and RR. That's my take.

 

Is it supposed to be the bridge between AX and RR? I thought it was the bridge between HPDE and RR. In HPDE you learn about how to handle traffic, in TT you perfect that, in RR you damn sure better know how to handle traffic.

 

So maybe the logical step is AX => HPDE => TT => RR

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So maybe the logical step is AX => HPDE => TT => RR

 

I can see how that makes sense, but where in the path is the step where drivers get to see how fast they and their car can hustle around a road course WITHOUT traffic? It's not present in that model, and I think it's an important step. The best way to learn racing lines and your and your car's limits is to explore a road course with little traffic.

 

Not only this, but even if you are capable and higly skilled at working in a setting with traffic, some don't want the additional risk and cost that comes with the potential for body to body contact...especially in their personal cars.

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So maybe the logical step is AX => HPDE => TT => RR

 

I can see how that makes sense, but where in the path is the step where drivers get to see how fast they and their car can hustle around a road course WITHOUT traffic? It's not present in that model, and I think it's an important step. The best way to learn racing lines and your and your car's limits is to explore a road course with little traffic.

 

Not only this, but even if you are capable and higly skilled at working in a setting with traffic, some don't want the additional risk and cost that comes with the potential for body to body contact...especially in their personal cars.

 

yeah being on track all alone would be great .... expensive too. Maybe you and a few friends can pitch in on renting a track for a day. Good luck with that

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I can see how that makes sense, but where in the path is the step where drivers get to see how fast they and their car can hustle around a road course WITHOUT traffic? It's not present in that model, and I think it's an important step. The best way to learn racing lines and your and your car's limits is to explore a road course with little traffic.

 

Not only this, but even if you are capable and higly skilled at working in a setting with traffic, some don't want the additional risk and cost that comes with the potential for body to body contact...especially in their personal cars.

 

Part of the fun and learning experience is dealing with traffic. I would say that more than half of the Time Trialers are or are planning on racing competitively with NASA. The learning curve can get pretty steep if you jump into a race car with little or no spacial awareness of what's around your car. That's why NASA has such a great HPDE program that allows beginners to ramp up their abilities through the HPDE ranks to a level just under racing. I feel very comfortable on the track with the drivers in time trial. At Willow yesterday, there was a brief moment when some of us got stuck in traffic and Greg was taking a peak just a foot or two off my bumper... it's great that we can have such a good group that knows how to play hard and at the end of the day there are ZERO incidents.

 

If you're still worried about learning the correct line in your car to achieve the fastest lap, I think you better check out the HPDE forum and chat with the guys in 1 and 2. Or maybe attend a driving school like Skip Barber where there are few cars and lots of instruction... that's what I did.

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Another thing to point out, while TT is run in HPDE, remember, alot of the tracks are run over 1:30. You can have plenty of free space on the track without being bunched up. If you are worried about being in a pack, take a breath, pull into pit lane, signal the pit boss to give you gapping space, then go out when its clear. Not a big deal. I feel more comfortable running in HPDE4/TT where we are passing people in every corner, than I do in group 1-2 giving instruction to other drivers, with passing in very limited areas. By going trough the levels of HPDE, you build confindence in your driving and the skills of yourself and others, and how to read other drivers actions. To run a true fast lap, you better have those skills anyway.

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Thanks for all the responses. I'm in the industry, have been to driving schools, and have driven a dozen tracks in the U.S. Still, I haven't heard anyone speak of where true Time Trials fits into the model? All the talk about spacial awareness and passing skills, that's great. I agree, very beneficial. Still, somewhere in the model, I think there's got to be an option for driver, car, and track...trying to manage the best times possible with nothing ahead.

 

I guess in SoCal there are just a lot of time trialers. Dealing with traffic of 20 cars is quite a bit different than 40. And there's a tremendous gap between Unlimited and TTF. Is there any sort of qualifying session in NASA's TT program?

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Dan,

We typically have 4 (or 5) 20-25 minute sessions a day. During that time, you will get multiple open laps without needing to pass. Even our fastest TTU drivers manage to find open track laps. As far as the slower cars are concerned, they are asked to stay on-line, and rarely need to breathe the throttle because they are being passed, so that being passed doesn't slow them down. Many of us have been in TT competitions where you spend 2-4 hours of the day allowing every driver to get TWO open laps (plus a partial warmup and partial cooldown lap) without any traffic at all. And, I as well as many others have found it to be a waste of precious track time. I'd much rather get 40 minutes of track time than 7-8 minutes. As well, our TT methodology actually allows you time to heat up your tires. If you check into this, you will find that the organizations that use the two hot lap plan will also cost a lot more for an event than NASA (even though there may be less track time).

 

There are no "qualifying sessions" for TT. Every session (except the first of the weekend in SoCal) counts toward the competition. At times, we will do variations of "pre-grid" by either laying out an actual grid order for one of the afternoon sessions, or having the fastest cars line up in one line, and the slower ones in another line (and let the faster cars out first).

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We typically have 4 (or 5) 20-25 minute sessions a day. During that time, you will get multiple open laps without needing to pass. Even our fastest TTU drivers manage to find open track laps.

 

Here's another thought as well. Those ramping up for a road race future can find excellent value in learning the quirks of cranking off a fast qualifying lap when you're forced to deal with others on the track.

 

There is a definite skill in finding open track, keeping your tire temps in the sweet spot and then hittin that fast lap for the pole.

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We typically have 4 (or 5) 20-25 minute sessions a day. During that time, you will get multiple open laps without needing to pass. Even our fastest TTU drivers manage to find open track laps.

 

Here's another thought as well. Those ramping up for a road race future can find excellent value in learning the quirks of cranking off a fast qualifying lap when you're forced to deal with others on the track.

 

There is a definite skill in finding open track, keeping your tire temps in the sweet spot and then hittin that fast lap for the pole.

 

No doubt about that. This is not a contentious point. The point is that somewhere in the system, there is value in a more strict-to-definition time trials. And again, some don't want the risk that comes with potential body to body contact...no matter how good of a driver they are.

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Greg,

 

You're great at responding on these boards promptly. Keep up the good work.

 

He does a great job trying to fit them in between patients. CODE BLUE!!!

 

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No doubt about that. This is not a contentious point. The point is that somewhere in the system, there is value in a more strict-to-definition time trials. And again, some don't want the risk that comes with potential body to body contact...no matter how good of a driver they are.

 

Come on Dan, we all know that there is risk of body to body contact everytime one goes on the track with other cars, regardless of whether it is a timed competition or not. In fact, I would put our SoCal TT contact record up against other organizations that run HPDE-like events any day. I believe that most of our drivers feel safer with our TT run group than with a typical HPDE run group because of the experience and skill level of our drivers. There are organizations that run TT with the format that you are discussing. In fact, I still run with one of them on occasion (for racing though). However, it's not what we are interested in doing in NASA. I found it to be of almost no benefit to myself when I did run under that format, and as Dave stated, real-life race qualifying sessions at all except the elite pro level will have multiple cars on the track.

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No doubt about that. This is not a contentious point. The point is that somewhere in the system, there is value in a more strict-to-definition time trials. And again, some don't want the risk that comes with potential body to body contact...no matter how good of a driver they are.

 

Come on Dan, we all know that there is risk of body to body contact everytime one goes on the track with other cars, regardless of whether it is a timed competition or not. In fact, I would put our SoCal TT contact record up against other organizations that run HPDE-like events any day. I believe that most of our drivers feel safer with our TT run group than with a typical HPDE run group because of the experience and skill level of our drivers. There are organizations that run TT with the format that you are discussing. In fact, I still run with one of them on occasion (for racing though). However, it's not what we are interested in doing in NASA. I found it to be of almost no benefit to myself when I did run under that format, and as Dave stated, real-life race qualifying sessions at all except the elite pro level will have multiple cars on the track.

 

Greg,

 

I understand the value of the program the way it is currently run, and it interests me. I may, in fact, give it a shot. That said, I can tell you of many talented drivers in my end of the biz (editorial/PR) that wouldn't even consider it unless it was a true time attack or trials series. Honestly, there's almost zero risk of body to body contact if cars are spaced well, so I don't think that's being unrealistic. Besides this issue, I do have some more questions if you get a chance to get in touch. Thanks.

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No doubt about that. This is not a contentious point. The point is that somewhere in the system, there is value in a more strict-to-definition time trials. And again, some don't want the risk that comes with potential body to body contact...no matter how good of a driver they are.

 

Come on Dan, we all know that there is risk of body to body contact everytime one goes on the track with other cars, regardless of whether it is a timed competition or not. In fact, I would put our SoCal TT contact record up against other organizations that run HPDE-like events any day. I believe that most of our drivers feel safer with our TT run group than with a typical HPDE run group because of the experience and skill level of our drivers. There are organizations that run TT with the format that you are discussing. In fact, I still run with one of them on occasion (for racing though). However, it's not what we are interested in doing in NASA. I found it to be of almost no benefit to myself when I did run under that format, and as Dave stated, real-life race qualifying sessions at all except the elite pro level will have multiple cars on the track.

 

Greg, I agree with you about this. In the OH/IN region, the TT group which began in 2003 has not had one contact incident. We've had HPDE and racing group incidents, but none in TT.

 

Unless you count the C5 corvette that had some body damage when he hit the snowbank in April's Mid-Ohio

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Unless you count the C5 corvette that had some body damage when he hit the snowbank in April's Mid-Ohio

 

 

 

What kind of a car is a "Snowbank"??

 

Hmm, odd terms these easterners use, EH?!

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A "Snowbank" can be purchased in several models, most of which we have seen at Mid Ohio. In 2003 a "Snowbank" showed up in a mostly aqua color. This particular model was in the economy sized class and only came out to play for about one day. In 2004 a large model "Snowbank" showed up. This one was colored ice gray and left it's mark about 1 inch high all over the track (very messy Snowbank). This year the "Snowbank" showed up with plenty of bling which it shared with every inch of central ohio. This one was color code "Holy Cow That's A Lot Of White!" There was so much bling in fact that we had to shut down the track to avoid going into "OS" (over-snowbank). Unfortunately the "Snowbank" stuck around for Sunday making a mess and dropping fluids all over the track even hitting the erant C5 or Porsche driver.

 

Dang those "Snowbanks". A total nuisance on track...

 

LM

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