13/13

[mikew968]

Should there be a 13/13? Under what circumstances should it be used?

[cstreit911]

I'm a firm believer in the 13/13 personally.

 

When should it be used? I think as the rules suggest, whenever contact could be reasonably avoided but was not. "At fault" contact as it is... Should not be used for racing incidents. (ex two cars spin and contact). It's a grey area and the officials have to be trusted to "do the right thing". Believe me, as a SD, we are not served by allowing avoidable contact as our charter is to grow the series, and letting GTS get a reputation as a smash-fest will not accomplish that objective.

[mikew968]

Maybe a small group of experienced racers should act as an advisory board or maybe several regional directors should review the incident after the weekend and make a ruling.

[JSG1901]

Personally, I think the 13/13 rule is too harsh for most real-world situations. I'm not saying there's no place for it but thirteen months is a long time, whether it's on probation or suspension. In my case, at least, one of the handful of reasons I moved to NASA in the first place was my dislike of the harshness of PCA's 13/13 rule and the way they handled contact situations.

 

At NASA we have, and use, Probationary status as a tool for effectively telling drivers it's time to settle down and drive within their own limits. The length and extent of that probation can be adjusted as is appropriate to the situation rather than a one-size-fits-all 13-month period.

 

While I am certainly not looking for more contact, I think contact is an inevitable result of what we do, particularly at the front of the pack. If you're driving around at 85% then, sure, it's easy to avoid contact and keep your car clean and nice. However, when you are pushing very close to your--and/or the car's--limits, while driving, at times, within inches of other cars doing the same thing, it is inevitable that from time to time those cars will touch.

 

If the 13/13 rule were applied to intentional contact, where one driver is purposefully trying to hit another, I'm all for it. In fact, in that situation I'd be all for a suspension or outright ban of the offending driver. Outside of that, to me, there are few cases where a 13 makes more sense than a properly-applied probation (and, really, there may be no difference other than the duration of the penalty).

 

For what it's worth.

[streak]

Make a low percentage move, over drive you or your car, ruin someone else's day because you lost control = 13.

 

There are racing incidents and those are obvious. I've even seen potential 13's at PCA become racing incidents once the drivers and stewards hashed it out.

 

After three years of one particular racer bouncing off every car in the GTS field he's finally gone. Should have been banned 3 years ago IMO. I mean this guy couldn't put two whole weekends together without car to car contact. This is for whom the 13 bell tolls.

[911.racer]

PCA and the way the rule is enforced makes drivers drive a certain way. Not good, just different. They know you can not touch them so they are a lot more agressive when they know the penalty will be on you.

 

I am not a fan.

 

Ed

[jfawsitt]

Ed is right on the money with this. PCA's 13/13 is used as a defensive weapon by some.

 

JF

[mikew968]

The Nationals broadcast talked quite a bit about the 13/13...lol

[911.racer]

OK, but why do we have a 13/13. Chris, as a series director, what is the 13/13 doing for you. You, with the race director, can hand out penalties, you can hand out probation, you can hand out suspensions, and you can hand out fines.

 

Is that not enough of a arsenal. Right now, there is a lot of chatter becuase we have a 13/13 rule that is used very little. Why have it at all. PCA has a strict (or a more strict) 13/13 rule and they use that, in general, instead of other penalties. I feel that the other tools in the tool bag are more effective and more versatile. Especially since the 13/13 rule is not an option when there is contact between a GTS and non-GTS car like we can typically be racing with throughout the year.

 

I think that NASA and GTS is getting bad press because we have a tool that we are not using, and in my opinion, with the other tools, we do not need. Do we really have racers that race with us because they feed comfortable with the series because we have the 13/13 rule?

 

It is my understanding that this is the reason PCA has it. PCA has it also to create consistency between events. PCA is not like NASA. NASA is more like SCCA in that we have multiple events put on by the same people. PCA has one event per year per track put on by that region. Yes, they have plenty of national people come to oversee the event, but many times, those people are only seeing those racers a couple of times per year. We are more like a family. We see each other many times per year and really know the other racers we are racing with.

 

 

I feel that we should propose a rule change this year to remove the 13/13 rule from our rules and let the race director and series directors hand out the penalties that they should and do with our series and all of the other series.

 

 

To have a better understanding of me. I have raced with NASA since they came to Ohio. I have raced PCA and SCCA since 2001. I have never had car to car contact with SCCA. I have never had an at fault contact with NASA (now I jixed myself). I am very familiar with the PCA 13/13 rule (mostly the old rule where you would get a 13 by hitting a gaurdrail in the paddock)

 

Thanks

 

Ed

[gpeluso]

Ed,

I currently do not run GTS. This year I ran a BMW in PT. I had this same thinking years ago when I ran GTS and was in favor of getting rid of the 13/13 rule because I felt it was not real. I found myself racing with extra caution and others racing with no caustion and taking chances because a few like myself would avoid any contact(I felt taken advantage of). I too race SCCA and see how other organizations are run. Years ago when I brought this up I was told this rule attracts other PCA and BMWCCA drivers. I have seen contact between GTS drivers in races have contact and nothing was done. I think GTS is just to damn competitve with such tight racing that the contact should simply be left to the event organizers. I laughed when I saw a PT driver think that PT racing is tighter racing..... The TOP GTS drivers are TOPNOCH. Let NASA scold the drivers.....take the weight off series directors. Maybe I'll let you guys beat me up next year.

 

Greg Peluso

[jcrist]

If the 13/13 rule were applied to intentional contact, where one driver is purposefully trying to hit another, I'm all for it. In fact, in that situation I'd be all for a suspension or outright ban of the offending driver. Outside of that, to me, there are few cases where a 13 makes more sense than a properly-applied probation (and, really, there may be no difference other than the duration of the penalty).

 

For what it's worth.

 

Interesting quote as we are all reviewing the threads about the rule changes. Intentional and out of control are not one in the same. My example of the guy in MA that I posted in the other thread would not be applicable to "intentional" because he didn't "mean" to do it, he just wasn't giving his driving skills enough buffer between cars.