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Group D and H conflict


Winefool

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Just looking at the schedule for Thurs/Fri qualifying races in consideration of Supersizing into a second run group in addition to my primary GTS entry. It seems like the big supersize opportunity for practically every other race group is Group D (PT / ST). Almost any car can cross over into one or both of these classes. In the original schedule, the Group D race was followed by a 5 minute course check break, providing the possibility that maybe you could finish the race and get back to grid if your other group happened to be next. Unfortunately (for me anyway) they changed the most recent version and now the GTS race (group H) immediately follows the Group D race. Worse yet, the schedule is exactly the same for both Thursday and Friday, so GTS takes the hit both days.

 

As far as I can tell, there is simply no way to finish the Group D race and still make your qualifying position for the Group H race. If anyone has managed this, please chime in. I guess some race group had to draw the short straw and in this case it was GTS - it is what it is.

 

So the question is this... Is it still feasible to just not run the qualifying races (or run the first half just for fun/practice but then beg off and grid for the next race) and run in the Championship race on Saturday. Basically, will they grid by time within class (whole class starts together with you in the back) or would you have to start from the back of the entire ~65 car field?? Anyone happen to know before I sign up?

 

Any thoughts would be appreciated!

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Chris, you'd have to start from the back.

 

The qualifying races determine your starting position for the championship race based on finishing position, not laptimes.

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the back of your class or the back of the entire pack?

 

Yes, this. I understand that the qualifying race finishing positions determine the starting order for the championship race and that you would have to start from the back. Question, back of what? Class or Run Group? Makes a potentially huge difference depending in what class you are running...

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the back of your class or the back of the entire pack?

 

Yes, this. I understand that the qualifying race finishing positions determine the starting order for the championship race and that you would have to start from the back. Question, back of what? Class or Run Group? Makes a potentially huge difference depending in what class you are running...

 

I hope class as I plan to do the same. That being said, I think PTA will start in the back of D anyway!

 

There's a lot of conflicts, I and D are the same (lots of TTS/TTU/TTA cars that want to run in D). In the end the schedule guys were good to work with, and I wouldn't want their job. No matter what you do somebody is gonna get the short end, just a lot of stuff packed in 3 or 4 days.

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I hope class as I plan to do the same. That being said, I think PTA will start in the back of D anyway!

 

There's a lot of conflicts, I and D are the same (lots of TTS/TTU/TTA cars that want to run in D). In the end the schedule guys were good to work with, and I wouldn't want their job. No matter what you do somebody is gonna get the short end, just a lot of stuff packed in 3 or 4 days.

 

Yep, I get it - probably impossible to schedule it with no conflicts. Disappointing but understandable.

 

Good point about PTA in back, but you'll still have to get through the TTB guys, and the question is how many ST2 guys will be slower than the front running PTA guys (probably some, possibly many). Big difference between getting through 7-8 cars versus 17-18 cars, especially given these are all relatively fast cars. It's not working through SM traffic...

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I had to do this one year because I forgot to torque down a wheel and finished dead last in one of the qual races. I started in a mix of GTS1 cars. So my assumption would be that you start in the very back of the entire GTS field.

 

and yes, there will be a bunch of slow ST2 guys holding up PTA guys.

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depends on the group leader / group I guess - in 2009 even though the top few PTF cars were consistently faster and consistently finishing ahead of the PTE backmarkers our class started about 8th in the 2nd start wave behind all of PTE, including behind a PTE guy I didn't recall seeing the entire event.

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I feel your pain. I am not supersizing, but running two seperate classes, HC and SM. The original schedule had those two perfectly spaced out, but now the revised schedule has them, of course, back to back.

 

My crew cheifs and I will do our best to get me out of one car and into another, perhaps coming in a lap early for qualifying and practice. The problem, however is the qualifying races, where clearly, you cannot come in a lap early during a race.

 

Not to hijack the thread, but if anyone has additional comments/opinions i'm all ears.

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Unless the schedule changes you'll have to pick one to focus on I'd imagine. If it were me, wanting to win both, then I'd run both of the qual races for the largest of the two classes (since with a larger field it'll be harder to come from the back) and just cross my fingers for the other one and do my best - I don't think that doing one qual race for each would put you very high up in either field - might as well max out one and just deal with being in the back for the smaller one. YMMV. Of course if there is one that you've got a better shot to win then that'd be the one to focus on. etc, etc.

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Every time I've asked if the grid will be set by time/class or just time, I've been told:

 

It depends, it's up to each race director, and won't be decided until we get there.

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It depends, it's up to each race director, and won't be decided until we get there.

 

If that's the case, they should take a vote from all the regional directors since it's a national event.

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I vote for gridding by class!

At least for the first session on Thursday (for time trials). Then it should be by overall fastest time.

There's no reason I should be gridded ahead of and holding up a TTD car if he is faster than me.

 

The race groups should be gridded by class then by time since you're only racing against others in your class.

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The race groups should be gridded by class then by time since you're only racing against others in your class.

 

I disagree with this. If youre a GTS5 car turning GTS1 times, you have no business being up front. Race groups should always be gridded by time. But that is just my opinion.

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If youre a GTS5 car turning GTS1 times, you have no business being up front.

 

Sure you do. The GTS5 car paid an entry fee to race against like cars. There are always going to be slow drivers and underdeveloped cars in any class. You grid him way in the back behind lower classed cars and his incentive to show up every weekend is all but gone.

 

On the other hand, I could argue the other point too since those slower cars could affect your race, but that's just racing in my opinion.

 

I do think however that there should be some type of minimum speed per class. Let's be honest, if someone is 20 seconds off the pace of the class leader at any given track, it's probably a good bet that they shouldn't be on the race track under racing conditions.

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It's a double edged sword.

 

Based on the q-race format gridding by overall time makes them big out of class races. The higher you finish, regardless of class, the more you are rewarded in Championship grid. Defend young man.

 

Gridding by class/time helps the slow guys and hurts the fast guys by removing the slower or faster out of class cars. It also allows thopse that break or get DQ'd a chance to be close to the leaders instead of back of the entire pack.

 

Which is better?

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Well, I think that about sums up the debate - gridding by class within group benefits the slower guys and gridding by time within group benefits the faster guys.

 

It seems to me if you're going to give a break one way or the other, in the interest of fairness and better racing you should give it to the slower guys. More importantly, it just seems to me that you should grid with and race against the guys in your class. If the fast guys have to work through some traffic early, so be it. We grid by time within group in MW/GL and the faster GTS guys usually catch the slower AI/CMC guys in the group in front in about a lap anyway - there will always be traffic. Give a mid pack guy a chance to get a good start and get in front of another guy in his class and have some actual racing. I've been on the losing end of this proposition this season, but I wouldn't change it.

 

By the way, the only pro series I can think of where this is an issue grids by class. In ALMS the faster GT cars are often faster than the slower LMPC cars, but they still grid the LMPC guys together in front of GT...

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If you outqualify the cars in the next class, you should be rewarded for that fast time. If I am racing and I outqualify some GTS4 cars, I can use those 4 cars as part of my strategy to maintain my lead. Gridding by class rewards those drivers who cant even turn a laptime that is competitive in their class. We're talking about Nationals here, not some regional event.

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Grid by class. Gridding solely by time jumbles the classes and reduces in-class competition and racing excitement. We are all only competing in our own classes. Out-of-class racing is sometimes a hindrance to our own race and can prevent in-class drivers getting the chance to engage each other for passing opportunities.

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I think for GTS there should be two waves. GTS3-U and GTS1-2

 

And within those, group by time.

 

Best of both worlds

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Gridding by class is the only fair way to do it.

If there are slower cars ahead everyone in your class has to deal with the slower car. If you are that much faster it should be that much easier to make the pass.

 

If you grid only by time then a faster cars are rewarded and the slower cars are penalized, when you grid by class no one is penalized - if anything you should be more motivated to make the pass and put cars between you and your competition.

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