robbodleimages Posted August 24, 2011 Share Posted August 24, 2011 I dont know that this has any significance to our situation, but its worth noting as a possible indicator. SCCA Spec Miata is moving from Toyo to Hoosier as its spec tire for 2012. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nape Posted August 25, 2011 Share Posted August 25, 2011 I sure hope not. If it does happen, the battles at the front are going to be a lot more fun to watch. The contingency money will go from a nicety to a necessity to run a full season. My prediction, AI car counts will be half of what they are in two seasons if we go to tires that don't last a couple weekends. CMC car counts will go up, just because people can afford to race. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marshallmosty Posted August 25, 2011 Share Posted August 25, 2011 All, I discussed this with Todd recently and it was conveyed to me that the majority of these types of decisions will most likely be made during the week of the Nationals event. Hopefully Todd can chime in and give any additional information, if there is any more at this time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Watson Posted August 26, 2011 Share Posted August 26, 2011 As a racer I prefer the existing toyo program and tires period. Going to hoosier or similar will triple a mid pack racers tire budget, yes TRIPLE unless said tire company doubles its contingency and pays out to 5th I am against it. AL. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robbodleimages Posted August 26, 2011 Author Share Posted August 26, 2011 i disagree on a number of accounts. particularly if you are talking contigency for mid pack racers. based on the most recent toyo payouts, a driver on 18's would have to win 5 or more races to win enough toyo bucks to pay for a single set of four tires. a midpack driver that earns the occasional podium would would not get even a single set of tires out of that contigency program. maybe i dont remember the toyo program correctly. what i do remember was chris desalvo commenting that he would need to win the majority of his nasa races to get one set of 4 tires from toyo. as a mid pack racer, i calculated that if i ran a full season, i would very likely not earn enough toyo bucks to get a single 275/35-18 RA1. that and that a shaved toyo just doesnt last that much longer that a properly heat cycled and care for BFG or Goodyear tire. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nape Posted August 27, 2011 Share Posted August 27, 2011 particularly if you are talking contigency for mid pack racers. based on the most recent toyo payouts, a driver on 18's would have to win 5 or more races to win enough toyo bucks to pay for a single set of four tires. a midpack driver that earns the occasional podium would would not get even a single set of tires out of that contigency program. Most mid-packers are on 17s because they can't afford/justify the 14" brakes to need the 18" wheels for the 18" tires, so that's a moot point for most. Not that you need 14" brakes to win, unless you drive a tank. And your math is wrong, you'd have to sweep 5 weekends ($150/win) to get enough Toyo Bucks to pay for a set of 18s. But, if you keep the practice/qualifying laps down, don't drive the car sideways, and shave them to 5/32nds, you can make a set last 5-6 weekends. Another tip, if the contingency isn't going to pay out at full rate, throw on some old junk because it doesn't matter at that point. Corded, square, etc. If it holds air, run it. Why burn up $250/350 tires to win $40? Throw some old junk on some $100/set wheels, store the car on them in the winter, run them when the money sucks. Another thing to think about, is that if we are considering another manufacturer, make sure they're on board for a Regional Championship payout. I won $2250 in Toyo Bucks in '09/'10 just from RC payouts running two regions, which about matched my per race contingency for the two years. Just the thoughts of a guy who can't afford to buy new tires and has to win them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SNAKBITN Posted August 27, 2011 Share Posted August 27, 2011 I have never gotten 5 or 6 weekends out of any tire not even running TT and your only putting 3 or 4 hot laps per sesson at most on the tires then.On the 3rd weekend your not going to turn any fast laps except maybe with toyo's and the new toyo's doesn't seem to last as long anyway's.The BFG is cheaper than the hoosier almost as quick,last longer and doesn't have to be shaved like the toyo which brings the cost within afew dollars of the BFG and has the best contingency program. I vote for the BFG if it matters. Robert AI rookie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Watson Posted August 27, 2011 Share Posted August 27, 2011 Heres how I see it toyo vs hoosier... Assumptions: generalize $300 a tire 8 race weekend per season Ra1 last 4 weekends, 24 heat cylces (seems some only get 2 weekends while budgeters get 6 plus) = $2400 yr R6 last 1 weekend, 6 heat cylces (before lap times drop off north of a second) = $9600 Costs n Contingency: 3 STARTERS: toyo pays out $40/30/20 = $90 x 16 races = $1440 yr. Hoosier pays out 1 tire = $300 x 16 = $4800 yr. Net hoosier costs 4X and only pays back 3X costing more money not to mention toyo pays the little guy 2nd and 3rd where hoosier only pays top guys. 1st place guys - Toyo $2400 yr - $640 = $1760 yr tire costs. Hoosier $9600 yr - 4800 = $4800 yr. 3rd place - Toyo $2400 yr - $320 = $2080 yr tire costs. Hoosier $9600 yr - 0 = $9600 yr. 7 STARTERS - toyo pays out $150/100/75/50/25 = $400 x 16 races = $6400 yr. Hoosier pays out 2 tires/1/1 = 4 tires or $1200 x 16 races = $19200 yr. Net hoosier costs 4X and only pays back 3X costing more money and again only pays top guys leaving the little guys behind. 1st place guys - toyo $2400 yr - $2400 = $0. Hoosier $9600 yr - 9600 = $0. 3rd place guys - toyo $2400 yr - 1200 = $1200 yr. Hoosier $9600 yr - 4800 = $4800 yr 5th place guys - toyo $2400 yr - 400 = $2000 yr. Hoosier $9600 yr - 0 = $9600 yr 7th place guys - toyo $2400 yr - 0 = $2400 yr. Hooseir $9600 yr - 0 = $9600 yr In the end toyo is 3x cheaper. Now if Hooseir where to up the payouts and spread it out to 5th place like toyo I'd have no problem with straping them on. Adding $7k to a racers budget will only hurt the series. And this does not include the toyo year end regional champ money... AL. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robbodleimages Posted August 28, 2011 Author Share Posted August 28, 2011 Why is hoosier the only option? Btw...at 338 for 1 18 inch toyo your numbers dlook a lot different. Two wins don't buy one tire. For a guy like me...I would get nothing. I can also race nearly as long on the goodyear and bfg as the toyo and at 50 bucks less per tire Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Tornado Posted August 28, 2011 Share Posted August 28, 2011 Ok first folks need to stop w myth's a bit. I ran 14 heat cycle hoosiers at Mid-ohio past wknd and did just fine. Hoosiers last 3 -5 weekends and toyo's last 4-7. And for those of us with 18's they cost massively less. Personally forget these two and g with BFG for perfect match and get a good sponsorship would be my push Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wstukas Posted August 28, 2011 Share Posted August 28, 2011 I have never gotten 5 or 6 weekends out of any tire not even running TT and your only putting 3 or 4 hot laps per sesson at most on the tires then.On the 3rd weekend your not going to turn any fast laps except maybe with toyo's and the new toyo's doesn't seem to last as long anyway's.The BFG is cheaper than the hoosier almost as quick,last longer and doesn't have to be shaved like the toyo which brings the cost within afew dollars of the BFG and has the best contingency program.I vote for the BFG if it matters. Robert AI rookie Robert, I hear ya. I want to try the BFG's. I've read really great review's. FWIW, the (unshaved) Toyo's I ran at Road Atlanta last race were over a year old with 8 weekends on them; And still fast. I'll be running them at Roebling next weekend. My sticker Hoosier's on the other hand, were corded after 2 weekends... I'm not opposed to an open tire rule in 2012; but I imagine I won't be running Hoosier's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
svttim Posted August 28, 2011 Share Posted August 28, 2011 Whatever is decided, I hope its decided soon! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sundialracing Posted August 28, 2011 Share Posted August 28, 2011 ANYTHING BUT TOYO!!!!!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Watson Posted August 28, 2011 Share Posted August 28, 2011 Hoosier is not the only option, there are lots of options, I just used them to show the huge cost difference. Hoosier, kumho, yokos, bfgs etc all fall in the same category which is they dont retain similar lap times after 6 plus heat cylces as they get slower where as the toyo has similar lap times 20 plus heat cylces out, so my cost comparison should have been labeled 'all but toyo' vs 'toyo'. As a racer, I do agree the 2012 tire needs to be decided asap and needs to be firm and I hope Nasa and its class directors actually discuss it and decide with us racers in mind vs the all mighty corporate dollar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robbodleimages Posted August 28, 2011 Author Share Posted August 28, 2011 I am pretty sure that its toyo unless they want out. I am pretty sure that the scca spec miazta change is a sing that they want out. I am pretty sure that we get whoever is willing to pay for the rights. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
svttim Posted August 28, 2011 Share Posted August 28, 2011 I am pretty sure that its toyo unless they want out. I am pretty sure that the scca spec miazta change is a sing that they want out. I am pretty sure that we get whoever is willing to pay for the rights. I dont mind running the Toyos if they can supply the tires and they reduce the price of the 18's Listening Toyo? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D Algozine Posted August 29, 2011 Share Posted August 29, 2011 If this is going to be discussed and decided at Nationals, then hears my input, as I won't be at Mid O. If a tire is going to cost between $250 and $300 each, then it better last for several weekends. Getting 1-3 weekends per set is going to kill my budget, and likely send me down the road. I don't have any experience with anything other then Toyo, so I can't offer much. I assume there are ohter brands that will work. Personally, I've got a pretty good stock pile of Toyos, so a switch to anything other then Toyos is going cost me a pretty good some to get back to racing full time. However, I'm interested, as long as the dollar per use is equal to Toyo's. Knowing how these things typically are handled, I assume it's going to be a dollars and sense deal between NASA corporate and the tire manufacturers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robbodleimages Posted August 29, 2011 Author Share Posted August 29, 2011 you do realize that toyo tires in 18 cost $335 to $350 unshaven. one more important point. it sounds to me like toyo is pulling back. lets not hold any change against nasa. scca seems to be spinning their spec miata move to hoosier as their choice, but from what i am hearing its toyo that pulled out and left the door open to then choose hoosier. if toyo tells nasa national that they are not interested in participating as a spec tire any longer, lets not take it out on nasa. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D Algozine Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 Some General thoughts: Because it is a spec tire, it doesn't need to be the crippiest and certainly not the most expensive, and longenity should be a major factor. Since everyone will be using the same tire why not go with the most economical and available vs. the very best. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robbodleimages Posted September 7, 2011 Author Share Posted September 7, 2011 i agree dave. lets go with the most economical. btw...the toyo 18" is by far the most expensive dot track tires on the market. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D Algozine Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 i agree dave. lets go with the most economical. btw...the toyo 18" is by far the most expensive dot track tires on the market. The two different sizes of a "spec tire" is always going to be an issue. Not sure how they are going to resolve that. It is always going to be difficult to find one tire in two sizes that is readily available and fits the criteria of performance and cost. I would guess that what ever tire is spec'd for next year, there is a chance of one size not avialable in quantities or the cost being off. Then to meet the two size specification, they may not last very long, which then costs more $$. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philstireservice Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 you do realize that toyo tires in 18 cost $335 to $350 unshaven. one more important point. it sounds to me like toyo is pulling back. lets not hold any change against nasa. scca seems to be spinning their spec miata move to hoosier as their choice, but from what i am hearing its toyo that pulled out and left the door open to then choose hoosier. if toyo tells nasa national that they are not interested in participating as a spec tire any longer, lets not take it out on nasa. Rob - I'm not sure where you got your info from but it's really not that way at all. Oh by the way the 18" at $335-$350 was last years price..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robbodleimages Posted September 8, 2011 Author Share Posted September 8, 2011 it was the price when i went to buy and found there was no stock. has it changed? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philstireservice Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 it was the price when i went to buy and found there was no stock. has it changed? First off I was talking about the stock. Toyo is not pulling back, as far as we have been told. They want to stick around. Secondly the 275/35R18 is due back in Oct, so we have been told. It most likely will cost even more... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robbodleimages Posted September 10, 2011 Author Share Posted September 10, 2011 more? are you kidding? $400 for a shave RA1 18? sweet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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