gtb75 Posted August 25, 2011 Share Posted August 25, 2011 I also posted this in the TT section, but figured I should post it here as well since you guys know more about 944's than anybody! I realize the car would put me in 944 Cup / GTS and not 944 Spec, but I'm guessing you all would have some very beneficial feedback on the 951's regardless. I've got an opportunity to pick up a very nice 1986 Porsche 944 Turbo (951) with around 80k miles for a stupid good price (you wouldn't believe it if I told you)... All of the normal major 944 maintenance issues have already been sorted on the car, he's just looking to free up space in the garage. That being said, I wanted to try and get some feedback from you guys as to if it would make a good HPDE/TT car? I've always been reluctant to run forced induction on a track car, but I'm willing to consider it at this price. I currently run in HPDE 3 in a 2006 Corvette Z06, but am unwilling to make the move to HPDE 4/TT because of the financial aspect of writing off that car. With that all in mind, what are your thoughts on the 944T as a dedicated track car? I know from the Spec 944 guys that the NA cars are reasonably affordable and durable to run, but there's not much out there on the Turbos - hence my inquiry. I like the way the car drives and handles and the fundamental layout is very similar to my C6Z (front engine/rear trans)... On the surface it seems like a great option, but I figured you all would probably know more about them than me Thanks for the feedback! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbuzz Posted August 25, 2011 Share Posted August 25, 2011 Jon Milledge has been tracking and driving on the street his 88 951 since new. Up until last year he was still running the stock engine, gear box and shocks. I think his car has over 135,000 miles on it. He rebuilt the engine last year when it finally blew up at a PCA event at California Speedway. He just puts on some sticky tires and goes for it. The 944 series of cars are extrodinarly good track cars. Well balanced, easy to drive and durable. Even the stock suspension bushings are quite good for track use. You will most likely want to upgrade sway bars, shocks and springs right away but other than that you are in for a ton of fun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
944-Spec#94 Posted August 25, 2011 Share Posted August 25, 2011 With that all in mind, what are your thoughts on the 944T as a dedicated track car? I know from the Spec 944 guys that the NA cars are reasonably affordable and durable to run, but there's not much out there on the Turbos - hence my inquiry. The turbo is a great track car. I started my track life in an 88 944 Turbo S back 1998. I moved to the 944 NA due to lower operating costs. The nice thing about the non-turbo cars is that given the low hp they are generally understressed. Lack of cheap power adders keeps the cars stock and cheaper. The 944 Turbo on the other can be made into a very very fast car. 50hp is just a chip away and the cars wil lfit 275 width rubber under the stock body work. Want more power..... Easy just a little turbo change and 350 whp is at your finger tips. 400 hp just a little bit more boost away. Of course that is where the problems crop up. It is easy to make hp and put go fast parts on the car. The issue is a running 350-400 whp and super sticky 275's (or 295/315's with wide body flares) tires. 1200-1500lbs-in spring rates, etc. This sort of prep is very easy to do, but put alot of stress on components. Unlike the 911 which has factory race parts on the shelf for every generation there are few if any factor race parts for the 944 family. As such when push the turbo to high power/high grip levels the stock parts start to become problematic. The 944's we race are something liek 130-138 whp and runn on little 225's. We do however have the same controll arms, bushings, bearigns, engine block and tub as a 450hp 295 stick tired monster. There you can see the potenial issues. So what does than mean? If you keep the power level reasonable on a 944 turbo it can be very nice car. Avoid the temptation to add tons of power. Realize that a 944 turbo is harder to service than non trubo due to the extra plumbing of a turbo. I figure most DIY jobs will take 50 to 100% longer on my Turbo S street car than my NA race car. They really packeged things in tight in the turbo S. Plust there are many upgraded parts which cost more on a turbo than a non turbo. Also the reason our class uses the non turbo 944 is due to cost. When we started in 2002 some of the first racers were 944 Turbo guys. The non turbo was dirt cheap to buy and most were very stock. That make it easier to create a limited prep spec class. We all gave up speed to have people to race. However these days a non turbo 944 is a bit slow even in DE. There is just not enough hp in the car. Turbo stock have 220 hp to 250 hp for the turbo S and enough to stay with most DE traffic. Even so this past weekend I saw a 944 spec pass a 944 Turbo in a HPDE4 session. My own experince shows a 944 spec is faster than a stock street tired 944 Turbo with the same driver. It come down to weight and cornring speed. Of course similar prep and 951 is nearly always faster. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryW Posted August 25, 2011 Share Posted August 25, 2011 In NorCal there is a 951 in TT that consistently is at the pointy end and wins tires under contingency, so I'd say they can certainly be a competetive TT car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gtb75 Posted August 26, 2011 Author Share Posted August 26, 2011 Thanks for the great feedback guys! I guess my main concern is the durability of a turbo car - they're usually the ones (not necessarily Porsche) I see "blow up" at the track. My "home" track is Road America, so you're at WOT a lot there. As for mods, the car does have quite a few (not all of which are power related)... Here's the list: Fabspeed 3” exhaust and straight cat pipe Lindsey wastegate (club wastegate to keep within spec regulations) Aluminum diverter valve Koni Yellow adjustable shocks on rear Lindsey boost enhancer (adjustable, but kept at the stock setting to keep things smooth) Lindsey Performance chips (300HP kit) Braided stainless fuel lines from Lindsey and a new Fuel damper hose 3.0 bar fuel regulator Bosch 044 performance fuel pump (put on this spring, along with the gas tank being cleaned of any debris) New fuel filter New coil was put on this spring, has Magnacor plug wires as well (high heat/interference resistance) Weltmeister short shift kit Turbo twist wheels 17” Zimmerman cross drilled rotors all around Pagid Blue pads Stainless steel brake lines Any feedback you guys have on the power mods would be helpful... I'd hate to sink money in to this car just to have it blow up in the near term. It's a stupid good deal and has a clean history but, honestly, I was figuring I'd just get an older/higher mileage C5 when I did get a dedicated track car. I don't have anything against the Porsche, it's just that I'm already familiar with the Corvette platform, know its bulletproof, and relatively cheap to fix/mod. Thanks for the help everybody Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
944-Spec#94 Posted August 26, 2011 Share Posted August 26, 2011 Thanks for the great feedback guys! I guess my main concern is the durability of a turbo car - they're usually the ones (not necessarily Porsche) I see "blow up" at the track. My "home" track is Road America, so you're at WOT a lot there. The reason 944 Turbo seem to blow-up is that far too many guys add power cheaply. The add power, but don't do it right and that causes issues. Mis matched turbos or less the idea A/F ratios, wrong injector are great way to blow up the motor. You can make 320 whp on 18 psi forcing alot air through a smallish turbo or make 320 whp on 15 psi with turbo working in it efficent range. Guess which will last and which will blow up. My Turbo S uses a stock K26/8 and probably could get 300-310 whp (stock I dynoed at 230whp) from it, but I wil be forcing so much air though it that air will be really hot. That will put me close to detonation. On the street I will be fine since where can you run full boost for more than a few seconds. However at the track it will probably die like that. So that is core issue with why Turbo seem to be unreliable. You can make big power numbers easy, but if you don't do it right it won't last on track. In general the cars are pretty strong at 15 psi boost with 320 whp. If you want 350 whp you need to really plan it out carefully. There are tuners who know how to do it, but it will cost alot more to do than it for track duty as compared to some kid who makes that power for the street. Now the car listed seems to be mildly modded set-up. Probably a stock k26/6. If boost is stockish at 10 psi then you are looking at 220-250 whp or so. The Lindsey "300hp" chip is a little odd as you can't really get to 300 whp on k26/6 turbo. You can on a k26/8, but certainly not a stock .8 bar boost (10 psi). At 15 psi you can get closer, but if you want 300 whp in a track car I am not sure I would stay with stock turbo. Anyway if the car is 220-270whp it is pretty mild and the A/F ratios are not all fouled up should prove a nice solid car. Now I see no spring rate mods so the car will be soft and for track duty your plan should be to up the spring rates. Stock rates are in the 150-160lbs-in front and rear . This is soft and turbo can be very street able at double that and some guys are even out at 3x or 4x spring rates. So if I were to buy this car my first order of business would be to check the timming belt and give the a very close look over. I would be looking for deferred maintence items. Work bushings, leaks, ball joints. Etc. I would then probalbly put the car on a dyno to make sure A/F ratios are good. That Lindsey chip concerns me. Not that Lindsey is a bad company, but why install a "300 hp" chip and then dial back the boost to stock levels? I worry they may not be matched up right. So trip to the dyno to confirm boost levels and A/F ratios. If you want to go back stock it should be pretty easy removing the boost controller and chip. Then I would consider the suspension. Depending on budget and % street I might keep the existing shocks or go with proper race shock based upgrade. Then consider tires. Also.... There are some very knowledgeable people here on Rennlist. http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforums/944-turbo-and-turbo-s-forum-72/ Like any forum you need to week out idiots, but stick with guys that run track days and you learn alot. Since I don't track my Turbo any more and keep it stock I am not up to speed on the latest turbo upgrades. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Graber Posted August 26, 2011 Share Posted August 26, 2011 It is a great car and will make a great track ride. Lots of good advice here too. My only comment is that if you think you will progress to racing at some point it may not be the car (or more specifically the motor) you want. There are tons of 944 NA's in both 2.5 and 3.0 configurations racing successfully, but a lot fewer turbos. If it is really that good of a deal you should grab it without question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gtb75 Posted August 26, 2011 Author Share Posted August 26, 2011 A little clarification... Turns out it has the 300RWHP kit - not just a chip. Here's a link for what's included in the kit: http://www.lindseyracing.com/LR/Parts/951PACK300.html Looks like the kit develops closer to 280RWHP with the K26/6 and runs at 16psi. Do you guys think 16psi is a safe number for track use/abuse? Also, it has a "boost enhancer" - not a boost controller. Here's a link for it: http://www.lindseyracing.com/LR/Parts/951BOOSTENHANCER.html As for maintenance, everything is in order... The timing belt was replaced with a Kevlar one about 30k ago - water pump and tensioners were done at the same time. The stock turbo was also rebuilt around the same time. The new fuel pump and rear axles (now Lindsey units) were both done within the last year. The car isn't beautiful, but it is rust free. The only known issues are it has the typical cracked dash, the AC doesn't work, and it has "a tiny oil leak" he can't seem to track down. As for the deal, it really is that good... It's a friend and he's looking to sell it to me for $2k - and it has a clean title That all being said, it can be the best deal in the world, but I still wouldn't want it if it's not going to be up to track duty. Thanks for the feedback everybody! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
944-Spec#94 Posted August 26, 2011 Share Posted August 26, 2011 If al the go-fast parts are the lindsey kit then you are probably fine. 280 whp is probably a bit optimistic however. As for 16psi.. Not a problem if the A/F ratio are good. Since eveything was designed to work together you should be fine. However to be sure a little dyno time would be good ensure you are not going lean. Still you may want to pose the 16psi on a stock K26/6 to Turbo/Turbo S rennlist group. I am sure some there have tracked that exact set-up. At 2k is worth the parts value alone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbuzz Posted August 26, 2011 Share Posted August 26, 2011 Be sure to let us know if you dont buy it. I could come up with that money for that car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gtb75 Posted August 27, 2011 Author Share Posted August 27, 2011 The only thing that isn't Lindsey in the chain is the exhaust (which is Fabspeed), but I don't think that should change anything. I'd definitely put it on a dyno to ensure everything is running smoothly as well as get a gauge pack to monitor oil temp, AFR, and boost. I assume you guys recommend spending the extra to upgrade to a wide band (instead of narrow band) AFR gauge? Based on everything here and a bunch of threads I've read on Rennlist, I think I'm going to pull the trigger... While this wasn't the dedicated track car I originally had in mind, I could drive it for a few years and then probably turn around and sell it for what I bought it for - if not more depending on what I put in to it Again, thanks for the feedback! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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