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n80

Same old brake questions... different noob.

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Cooper93
Thanks guys. I'm nervous about getting this HPDE all set up and paid for and then getting there and have my weekend ruined by bad brakes.

 

So, I think I'm going to have a mechanic inspect the fronts for run out, etc. If there is plenty enough rotor for a cut, I'll have him use an on-car lathe to cut them and install the EBC Yellowstuff pads. If the disks are too worn or damaged to cut them, then I'll get new rotors and do the whole thing myself.

 

I'll do the rears at home myself.

 

Doing it that way I can get it all done for about $300 including the pads. If I have to buy new rotors, I might as well get decent ones and that's going to get closer to $450.

 

I'll do the bleed and new fluid myself.

 

This would be a lot easier if I wasn't such a tightwad and I'd just get a Brembo system all around.

 

I'm sure some would disagree with me, but I think you are better off driving the car stock. Work up to the limits of the car. Once you can routinely get to the limits of the car, identifying what those limits are and making improvements that expand those limits becomes easier. Save the money on that Brembo kit and just buy more track days.

 

As for the rotors...I've bought the "good" rotors, and I've bought the "cheap" rotors. In my opinion the differences between them were not worth the extra money, go with the cheap. I know some will disagree, and for some cars this opinion is probably not true, but for this car I believe it is.

 

Joe

 

I'd agree with you, Joe, with the exception of brake pads and fluid. DEFINITELY get some high performance pads. I used NAPA Adaptive One pads with mucho success until I started going through them in one day, and that was after I added 100whp to the car in my sig (300whp). I now have Carbotech XP10s up front, and XP8s in the rear. I wrecked the WRX and put my brake pads on the 2.5 RS I have now, and those brakes are WAY too much for the car (about 130whp). I could probably go back to the NAPA pads with the same amount of success.

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beerkat

Do not get more brake pad than your tires can hold.

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n80
Do not get more brake pad than your tires can hold.

 

I'm in the dark there. I'm assuming on a heavy car the EBC Yellowstuff will be about right for a complete novice.....but that's a complete guess.

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MR_E

What I think Kim is getting at is that you don't want to have incredible braking power on tires that can't handle it. A good example of that was my MR2 when I first bought it. I put some EBC reds on it, but hadn't had time to change out the Wal-mart special tires that the previous owner had put on it. Because the car had good brakes but no grip from the tires, every time I got on the brakes I would lock up the front tires. The tires just didn't hold the road well enough to keep up with the braking force being applied.

 

Since your G has ABS, I would assume that if you have too much brake and not enough tire, you would wind up engaging ABS a lot sooner than is normal for the car. When you engage ABS, you are losing braking force, so you don't slow down/stop as quickly.

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n80

I understand, thanks. The tires probably aren't the best for the track, Hankook Ventus V12 Evos. But they are almost brand new.

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kbrew8991

So long as they're not too far towards "race" in EBC's range they should be fine. The extra heat capacity over normal street pads will be nice too. Brake fade is miles less fun & safe than "too much pad".

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beerkat
What I think Kim is getting at is that you don't want to have incredible braking power on tires that can't handle it. A good example of that was my MR2 when I first bought it. I put some EBC reds on it, but hadn't had time to change out the Wal-mart special tires that the previous owner had put on it. Because the car had good brakes but no grip from the tires, every time I got on the brakes I would lock up the front tires. The tires just didn't hold the road well enough to keep up with the braking force being applied.

 

Since your G has ABS, I would assume that if you have too much brake and not enough tire, you would wind up engaging ABS a lot sooner than is normal for the car. When you engage ABS, you are losing braking force, so you don't slow down/stop as quickly.

 

Thanks Elliott. that is what I meant, I was just to lazy to write it all out.

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beerkat
I understand, thanks. The tires probably aren't the best for the track, Hankook Ventus V12 Evos. But they are almost brand new.

 

You will become a better driver in the long run learning to drive on street tires vs. DOT competition tire like NT01s, tread wear of 100 or less.

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n80
So long as they're not too far towards "race" in EBC's range they should be fine. The extra heat capacity over normal street pads will be nice too. Brake fade is miles less fun & safe than "too much pad".

 

EBC sells them as track and street pads and that they brake just fine from cold. I've been told that there is no such thing as a true track AND street pad and maybe these won't do either one very well, but my guess is that they're probably just fairly agressive street pads which will probably be fine for my first time out. I hope so anyway.

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jimbow
Do not get more brake pad than your tires can hold.

 

I'm in the dark there. I'm assuming on a heavy car the EBC Yellowstuff will be about right for a complete novice.....but that's a complete guess.

 

Heavy car, street tires, HPDE 1 - you'll be OK with the yellows.

 

I personally did not like them for time trials. I probably still have them sitting in the shed. They reminded me of PFC Zrated pads without the fade. In other words they did not work on my Corvette in time trials. Carbotechs comming into turn 10A at 125ish I can hit the brakes just after the 200 marker and over brake on R6 Hoosiers. With the yellows I had to brake and pray at the 400 marker.

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n80

I've checked out the Carbotechs but their compound description is confusing:

 

AX6™ is an excellent choice for Autocross & AX6™ has gained tremendous popularity with SCCA Prosolo/Solo2 competitors for its fantastic bite, release & modulation. Many drivers use the AX6™ for street driving as well, even though Carbotech doesn’t recommend street driving with AX6™ due to possible elevated levels of dust and noise. AX6™ is NOT a race compound, and should not be used as such. AX6™ shouldn’t be used by any intermediate or advanced track day drivers, and should not be used with “R” compound tires (racing tires).

 

Reading between the lines you might could say that they are good for Solo, fine for novice track day driver with street tires and okay for street use if you don't mind dust and noise (which I don't). But, they are a bit more expensive than the Yellowstuff pads and the other Carbotech compounds are not for street use at all.

 

So I think I'll give the Yellowstuff a try. Live and learn, I guess.

 

Anyway, I've changed my game plan, again, and this is what I'm going to do (as of today):

 

New EBC sport rotors on front. EBC Yellowstuff pads on all four corners (unless I get some more info on Carbotechs). New high temp brake fluid. Do it all myself. I've got all the tools and I've done brakes before, I just don't have the place. But my parents have a big new garage that I can borrow so I'll just do it there.

 

Thanks again.

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kbrew8991
With the yellows I had to brake and pray at the 400 marker.

Were these the old yellows or new (as in made in about the past year or so)? It seems like EBC has revamped their compounds, the old stuff was JUNK but the newer stuff seems to be ok from what I've read.

 

That said I like my Carbotechs. I street-drove on XP8s just fine... they're just being a little bit conservative in their descriptions (underpromise & overdeliver). Another plus is they're based in NC so UPS Ground shipping was ~1day if you order direct from them, or I could pick them up at the factory on the way to the track if I needed a set.

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jimbow
With the yellows I had to brake and pray at the 400 marker.

Were these the old yellows or new (as in made in about the past year or so)? It seems like EBC has revamped their compounds, the old stuff was JUNK but the newer stuff seems to be ok from what I've read.

 

That said I like my Carbotechs. I street-drove on XP8s just fine... they're just being a little bit conservative in their descriptions (underpromise & overdeliver). Another plus is they're based in NC so UPS Ground shipping was ~1day if you order direct from them, or I could pick them up at the factory on the way to the track if I needed a set.

 

I forget when EBC posted on corvetteforum that they were looking for folks to use and report on their "new" yellow compound. I responded and these were "free". I gave them my $0.02

For HPDE they will be fine, by the time you wear them out you'll be ready for A/R6, trailer, cage, etc

 

The XP8 is streetable and if you can stand a little cold squeal the xp10 and 12 will work I have also enjoyed the NC connection cause I needed a set of XP12 fronts for an event at CMP once. Was able to order on thursday and they were ready for pick up when I got to the track on Friday.

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beerkat
I've checked out the Carbotechs but their compound description is confusing.

 

 

You may already know this if so please excuse my rambling:

 

As you note one of the reason Carbotec does not recommend their pads for the streets is the dust and noise. The other reason is that most of their pads or other companies race type pads do not work well at lower temperature/street use Street pads and pads for AX have great grip at lower temperature but tend to fade out when used repeatedly and get hot. That is why it is hard to have a good street/AX pad and one that will work well on a road course. Your right that Carbotec pads are expensive but are priced competitively against similar race pads.

 

You will be find with the pad you choose but as you speed increases and you shorten you braking zone you will want to go to a Carbotec or other race pad.

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n80

Thanks Kim, and I agree. I had forgotten how easy it is to change pads and I think that in the future I will probably do what most people do who track their daily driver which is street brakes for street and track pads for track. In which case I will certainly be looking at the Carbotechs. The EBC BlueStuff did not do very well in the Grassroots Motorsports brake pad comparisons. Dead last I think.

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Cooper93
Thanks Kim, and I agree. I had forgotten how easy it is to change pads and I think that in the future I will probably do what most people do who track their daily driver which is street brakes for street and track pads for track. In which case I will certainly be looking at the Carbotechs. The EBC BlueStuff did not do very well in the Grassroots Motorsports brake pad comparisons. Dead last I think.

 

Love my Carbotechs! XP10s up front, XP8s in the back, street driven!

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Light on Fuel

I'm also a noob (I joined NASA about 10 minutes ago) and have yet to do an HPDE. Not to jack the thread but I have a question. If this was already covered, forgive me, but my lunch is limited and I couldn't read through all the replies.

 

I drive an '01, VW, GTI, VR6. I've done quite a few engine and suspension mods and installed vented/slotted rotors. Should I use these rotors for the track or should I have a seperate set for track and street?

 

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

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n80

I'm not the expert but I'd think the slotted rotors would be the ones you'd want to use at the track. In fact, for those of us just learning to drive on the track the rotors probably don't make a lot of difference as long as they are in good shape. It's the pads that will matter most.

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kbrew8991

Slotted rotors are snake oil - modern pads don't create the problem slotted rotors are intended to fix. Save your money to buy more track time with

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n80

I think he already has the slotted rotors. No sense in repalcing them for the track. EBC says that the slots definitely help keep pad wear even but that they probably do not help that much with cooling.

 

Funny thing is, you sure do see them on a lot of serious race cars.

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08Bullitt0572

You guys with imports seem to tear up your rotors quicker than I do, so I don't keep separate sets yet. I hear that when you do, it is recommended to use rotors and pads as sets since you so not want to use the same rotor with pads of different material.

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n80

I put EBC Yellowstuff pads and EBC rotors (the rotors needed replacing anyway) on mine and at the end of each session there would be little wisps of smoke coming off the pads. However, I never had any brake fade or mushiness. Unlike the VW above, my car is a bit of a load at 3500#, so I'm not sure what kind of pads he'll need but I'd think whatever rotors he has would be fine.

 

If he uses the same rotors but new pads he'll want to bed the new pads in before he gets on the track. Most pad manufacturers have bed-in procedures. If he really wants to be picky he could have his rotors cut on an on-car lathe then bed in the new pads for perfect contact. But that's overkill for initial track experience.

 

After two days at the track my rotors looked fine and there is still plenty of pad left so I was pleased and will probably stick with the Yellowstuff pads for track and street. If I get into this more I'll probably get a set of dedicated track pads.

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Light on Fuel

I think I'll try those also. Do they squeak during regular driving though?

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n80
I think I'll try those also. Do they squeak during regular driving though?

 

Mine have been surprisingly civilized. No more noise than the stock pads. And they seem to work fine even when cold. They make noticeably more dust though and it is black and nasty. That part doesn't bother me.

 

They are not a real dedicated track pad though and I suspect a true track pad would give better track performance. But I have to admit I'm surprised how well these do as an all around pad. If I get to be a better driver I might step up to a dedicated track pad.....but that's a big if.

 

The slotted rotors do make what they call 'wind noise'. It is a fluttering hissing sort of noise that I could only hear with the windows down. It is not intrusive. After a weekend at the track the wind noise is now barely detectable.

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ejabour

Don't buy anything right now. As you progress you will want full blown track pads. I started with Hawk HP+ and they would probably make a great autocross pad but after a couple of laps they really started to over heat. Jay Andrew from Andrew Racing was at Sebring recently shooting rotor temps and as I recall I was at about 900-1000F in my mkIV 1.8t GTI.. The GTI is underbraked as it is so flush your brakes with a good quality fluid then when you're ready go with Carbotech XP10 fronts and XP8 rears. We are limited with the pad selection for these cars. Oh yeah, and just stick with blank rotors. Germanautoparts.com and ECS tuning have good prices.

 

I think I'll try those also. Do they squeak during regular driving though?

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