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TurboShortBus

Sebring Time Trial entry list for October 1-2, 2011

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Mrsideways

Volvo, who said volvo.. it might be a Saab. Or a Konigsegg (sp).

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BlkGt3
TTD won't be safe for long at sebring. I'm actively looking for a swedish boost buggy that my math says will current C times in D trim.... Problem is I think they made like 2 of em and both the owners want triple what they are actually worth so I won't likely happen.

OK then, so what you're saying is that TTD actually will be safe from your turbo Volvo because it is unobtainium. Got it! lol

 

Mark

 

 

When Ian has a slow day at work he tends to spend $$$ he doesn't have

 

Peter

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Mrsideways
TTD won't be safe for long at sebring. I'm actively looking for a swedish boost buggy that my math says will current C times in D trim.... Problem is I think they made like 2 of em and both the owners want triple what they are actually worth so I won't likely happen.

OK then, so what you're saying is that TTD actually will be safe from your turbo Volvo because it is unobtainium. Got it! lol

 

Mark

 

 

When Ian has a slow day at work he tends to spend $$$ he doesn't have

 

Peter

 

I know KBB says they should cost between $13k and $15k but darnit I just bought the automatic version of it for Megan in great condition for $8k so I'm holding out!

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SpeedWorksRacing

Again this is me being the late guy and not signing up till the last min.

 

Looks as if Angelica the Celica will be ready to race so I will be signing up today. Still waiting on Greg to send me my class forms for it so I can see how far into TTG it will be

 

Anyone else gunna join me to play in TTF?

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dew-e

There may not even be any TTE cars. Probably doesn't make sense to run TTE with only two cars, so I have no problem being TTD tire fodder.

 

Of course, seems like some of the SM guys decide to doubledown and don't always make it on the entry list.

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Joshua

The Sebring TTF track record is 4 years old and ripe for the picking!

 

@Dew-e - thanks for thinking of us, just make sure about those SM guys showing up or not.

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TurboShortBus

Most "pro motor" Spec Miata guys really should be in TTD, anyway (unless they have been re-classed based on dyno and weight).

 

I have filled out TT classification forms for all 3 generations of Miatas that are eligible for SM, and if they maximize their cars per the 2011 SM rules, then they all end up in TTD based on modification points. However, dyno re-classing of SMs would likely put them in TTE, but nobody has made that effort to date.

 

I don't buy the nonsensical, "Oh, I don't have anything fancy or a 3-angle valve job or anything like that" from the SM "pro motor" drivers, especially the very fast ones (you know who you are). Don't bull5hit a bull5hitter...

 

There is a big difference between a Spec Miata in TT and a Miata that has been built for TTE.

 

Mark

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TurboShortBus

If Greg assigns a base class to it anytime soon, Josh's Celica could be contingency fodder for TTE as well.

 

Mark

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dew-e
Most "pro motor" Spec Miata guys really should be in TTD, anyway (unless they have been re-classed based on dyno and weight).

 

I have filled out TT classification forms for all 3 generations of Miatas that are eligible for SM, and if they maximize their cars per the 2011 SM rules, then they all end up in TTD based on modification points. However, dyno re-classing of SMs would likely put them in TTE, but nobody has made that effort to date.

 

I don't buy the nonsensical, "Oh, I don't have anything fancy or a 3-angle valve job or anything like that" from the SM "pro motor" drivers, especially the very fast ones (you know who you are). Don't bull5hit a bull5hitter...

 

There is a big difference between a Spec Miata in TT and a Miata that has been built for TTE.

 

Mark

 

Were you guys checking the suspension parts like the end links and bumpsteer correction kits in nationals? Did you find anybody in TTE/PTE that was running those kinds of mods and not taking points for it?

 

I'd love to see what a 99 built motor with no restrictor plate is making horespower wise in comparison to a non-99 1.8l.

 

The Sebring TTF track record is 4 years old and ripe for the picking!

 

I'd have to go and find some interior parts and some stock suspension bits here and there to get mine back to TTF. Even with 250 pounds of ballast, I'd be way to light to stay in TTF. I think my car would do something like a 2:48 to 2:50 with the extra weight and loss of tires. Not sure how much the suspension would impact the times.

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TurboShortBus
Were you guys checking the suspension parts like the end links and bumpsteer correction kits in nationals? Did you find anybody in TTE/PTE that was running those kinds of mods and not taking points for it?

We did our best to check everything on the cars, although only a few of them actually had their cars compared to their forms. For the most part, the top 2 or 3 in each category reported to the scales, and the fastest in each category was inspected.

 

I don't believe that bump steer kits are allowed in SM, but 1990-1997 models are allowed to shim the steering rack, which takes the same amount of points.

 

I did not DQ any TTE/PTE Miatas, although there were several other inspectors on hand that could have.

 

As for swaybar end links, I DQed an S2000 driver in PTC because he disconnected one of his OEM rear sway bar end links and did not have the points to spend to stay in PTC (he also had a non-OEM hardtop, but did not have +5 points to spare); I bumped him up to PTB as a result. He elected to leave rather than to re-attach the end link, unbolt the hardtop, and make the car PTC-compliant.

 

For one particular TTB car that seemed to be a little too fast, we gathered part numbers and measurements from a few experts on Saturday night and put his car up in the air on Sunday morning to check that his suspension was OEM. As it turned out, everything was fine.

 

Mark

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Joshua
I'd love to see what a 99 built motor with no restrictor plate is making horespower wise in comparison to a non-99 1.8l.

When my car was normally aspirated, it made ~132rwhp with intake/header/exhaust and aftermarket computer. It's a "junkyard" motor with no work done to it (still is). So with some attention to the head, I bet there's a bit more power to be made. My friend has a similarly set up 1994 1.8 liter engine in his Miata, and it makes about 5rwhp less than mine did.

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Mrsideways

I was told from someone who would know a lot about the subject on spec miata engines (because we were using him to build another engine). That a Uncorked (ie no restrictor plate) Spec miata 1.8 could do between 145whp and 150whp. I personally watched a CSP miata (front running car) dyno 186whp with ECU, Intake, Header, Exhaust and E85 and some "tricks" done to the head. The ITB protege Got a SERIOUS jump in hp when we got it back from the engine builder who used all OEM mazda parts in it. In ITB trim you can't really touch the head much at all but this car found 20-30hp on that $7000 trip to the engine builder. I have no idea what he did but it's faster and he claims it's legal so whatever. And it shoots flames which makes it cool!

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TurboShortBus
I have no idea what he did but it's faster and he claims it's legal so whatever.

I know a SM driver who will tell me all day long that he doesn't have any internal work done to his engine in order to try to avoid the points for a 3-angle valve job (permitted in SM), while he thanks Rossini for the great engine on his Facebook status.

 

"You don't lie to me...you lie to girls!" -Thornton Melon

aw3n9d.jpg

 

Mark

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smbstyle
TTD won't be safe for long at sebring. I'm actively looking for a swedish boost buggy that my math says will current C times in D trim.... Problem is I think they made like 2 of em and both the owners want triple what they are actually worth so I won't likely happen.

OK then, so what you're saying is that TTD actually will be safe from your turbo Volvo because it is unobtainium. Got it! lol

 

Mark

 

 

When Ian has a slow day at work he tends to spend $$$ he doesn't have

 

Peter

 

Peter,

 

Did you happen to be on I-75 last night, heading south real late? I was on my way back from Pensacola and saw a white E36 M3 w/ the #61 and the TT stickers on a trailer somewhere around the Gainesville area...

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Mrsideways

That was me driving. Pete was asleep in the passenger seat at that point. He dropped me in Orlando and drove the rest of the way home at 2am.... Amazing!

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smbstyle
That was me driving. Pete was asleep in the passenger seat at that point. He dropped me in Orlando and drove the rest of the way home at 2am.... Amazing!

 

Haha, too funny. Figured you all were coming back from Barber or Road Atlanta. I like the trailer by the way, who makes that? the built-in tire rack is pretty nice.

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BlkGt3
That was me driving. Pete was asleep in the passenger seat at that point. He dropped me in Orlando and drove the rest of the way home at 2am.... Amazing!

 

Haha, too funny. Figured you all were coming back from Barber or Road Atlanta. I like the trailer by the way, who makes that? the built-in tire rack is pretty nice.

 

Left Barber @ 1700 east coast time and got home @ 0330 avg 66mph. Ian did keep awake long enough to drive 100 miles I guess the 650/970 mile transits during the OLOA helps.

 

Trailer is a Featherlight but the tire rack is from a Trailex

 

Peter

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TurboShortBus

I just added Josh and his Celica to the TTR "red list," as he is awaiting a base class for this car.

 

I need to review Rokket's forms that I received yesterday.

 

Mark

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Alex Bolanos
I have no idea what he did but it's faster and he claims it's legal so whatever.

I know a SM driver who will tell me all day long that he doesn't have any internal work done to his engine in order to try to avoid the points for a 3-angle valve job (permitted in SM), while he thanks Rossini for the great engine on his Facebook status.

 

"You don't lie to me...you lie to girls!" -Thornton Melon

aw3n9d.jpg

 

Mark

 

Just because Rossini builds my engine that means I have a 3 angle valve job? Is that in the footnote of the rules? Automatically assessing SIX points for a 3 angle valve job to any Miata that has an SM sticker on it is complete bullshit. You and Greg both know it, that's why Cliff and I argued that we don't have one... to prove a point. At the Nationals that mean that an unplated Spec Miata would run against a SUPERCHARGED 1.8L Miata, regionally that would mean that an unplated Spec Miata would run against a Supercharged Miata and a Turbocharged Miata. Really?

 

Your attitude towards the people that run TT (both instructors and racers) clearly reflects why the participation numbers for TT in FL region (and consequently how many make the trip to Nationals to represent FL) are stagnant and declining yearly.

 

I love you too..

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obzezzed350

Wouldn't someone have to protest the car and prove the modification before points had to be taken?

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TurboShortBus
Just because Rossini builds my engine that means I have a 3 angle valve job? Is that in the footnote of the rules? Automatically assessing SIX points for a 3 angle valve job to any Miata that has an SM sticker on it is complete bullshit. You and Greg both know it, that's why Cliff and I argued that we don't have one... to prove a point. At the Nationals that mean that an unplated Spec Miata would run against a SUPERCHARGED 1.8L Miata, regionally that would mean that an unplated Spec Miata would run against a Supercharged Miata and a Turbocharged Miata. Really?

 

Your attitude towards the people that run TT (both instructors and racers) clearly reflects why the participation numbers for TT in FL region (and consequently how many make the trip to Nationals to represent FL) are stagnant and declining yearly.

 

I love you too..

I can't say that I agree with you, nor do I appreciate your opinion, but you are certainly entitled to it. If enforcing the established rules in order to provide a fair competition environment for all Time Trial participants is causing the situation that you mentioned, then I suppose that I'm guilty as charged. The "good old days" of running TT without classification forms, with questionable classification forms, or with outright cheating (per rumors prior to my involvement; I have no actual proof other than hearsay) are long gone if I have anything to say about it. Additionally, note that the Florida region is still the only one that posts all competitors' classification forms to a public Google Documents directory, so that there is nothing to hide.

 

Whether or not somebody is an instructor does not affect how the Time Trial rules are enforced.

 

If I followed all of Greg's suggestions, I would have made you tear the head off of your engine to inspect the valves a long time ago.

 

Again, there is a big difference between a Spec Miata and a Miata that is built to TTE or TTD rules. Just because you have a Spec Miata does not mean that it is properly prepared to be competitive in any Time Trial class.

 

Note that I have told you, Cliff, and other Spec Miata drivers on several occasions each that you can avoid the engine and weight reduction points by submitting dyno results and the car's minimum competition weight to Greg for a base re-class for Time Trial, as is clearly provided to you as an option in the Time Trial rules. The fact that you have not done this is your problem, not mine.

 

Mark

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TurboShortBus
Wouldn't someone have to protest the car and prove the modification before points had to be taken?

The lame part about Alex's complaint is that his car still fits in TTE/PTE, even with the +6 points for the 3-angle valve job, so I don't know what he is complaining about. The car is maxed-out on modification points, but it still fits in TTE/PTE. I have visually inspected it regionally, and I have visually inspected it at the Championships a few weeks ago.

 

But, I don't need anybody else to protest the car; the TT Director could order to have the head removed and disassembled at any time during an event for a thorough inspection, but I haven't.

 

Mark

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Alex Bolanos
Wouldn't someone have to protest the car and prove the modification before points had to be taken?

 

No, TT works differently. If the TT director sees you run Spec Miata (or ever have) you automatically get assessed the points and there doesn't have to be proof. It's as if when the 370Z came out, the PT national director made you take points for having a 3.7L engine just because you may have swapped one in and they're afraid others will do it.

 

If enforcing the established rules in order to provide a fair competition environment for all Time Trial participants is causing the situation that you mentioned, then I suppose that I'm guilty as charged.

 

No, go ahead and enforce the rules. Automatically assuming that every Miata with an SM sticker on it has a 3 angle valve job is NOT a rule, it's bullshit and not fair to people who want to supersize from SM to TTE and want to be at least remotely competitive.

 

Note that I have told you, Cliff, and other Spec Miata drivers on several occasions each that you can avoid the engine and weight reduction points by submitting dyno results and the car's minimum competition weight to Greg for a base re-class for Time Trial, as is clearly provided to you as an option in the Time Trial rules. The fact that you have not done this is your problem, not mine.

 

That's only partially accurate, both of you also told us that there was no guarantee even with a dyno that we would be classed in E. The dyno reclass "procedure" is largely subjective, if you two decide that even though the power/weight of a Spec Miata is no where near the max for TTE/PTE it is your discretion to put us in TTA/PTA if you felt like it.

 

The lame part about Alex's complaint is that his car still fits in TTE/PTE, even with the +6 points for the 3-angle valve job, so I don't know what he is complaining about. The car is maxed-out on modification points, but it still fits in TTE/PTE. I have visually inspected it regionally, and I have visually inspected it at the Championships a few weeks ago.

 

Taking the 6 points for "head work" removes any possibility of running Hoosiers and thus makes an SM even MORE at a disadvantage in TTE and also kills the opportunity to participate in the contingency program.

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kbrew8991

There's enough people out there with reclasses that have a Miata and have posted their numbers to know that

1.) it's consistent

2.) pretty fair

3.) pretty easy to guess ahead of time what kind of numbers you're looking at recieving.

 

And if it isn't #1 or #2, it'll also be painfully obvious and there is some recourse *if* you can make a case for an appeal, and with it being painfully obvious...

 

Also note that NO ONE at the regional level has any say whatsoever in what a reclassification will or won't be.

 

Stop picking on Mark.

 

Mark, stop making it seem like you're picking on SMs.

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TurboShortBus
Mark, stop making it seem like you're picking on SMs.

Heck, I like Spec Miatas. I like them so much that I'm actually working on one right now and I'm only using a moderate amount of profanity!

 

I created the generic SM/TT classification forms in response to all SM drivers who were not taking +3 points for adding an LSD, which is an item that never came on the base model Miata. Many SM drivers genuinely did not know that this was the case, but a select few (who should have known better) weren't very good at playing coy.

 

Mark

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