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TurboShortBus

Sebring Time Trial entry list for October 1-2, 2011

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TurboShortBus
The lame part about Alex's complaint is that his car still fits in TTE/PTE, even with the +6 points for the 3-angle valve job, so I don't know what he is complaining about. The car is maxed-out on modification points, but it still fits in TTE/PTE. I have visually inspected it regionally, and I have visually inspected it at the Championships a few weeks ago.

 

Taking the 6 points for "head work" removes any possibility of running Hoosiers and thus makes an SM even MORE at a disadvantage in TTE and also kills the opportunity to participate in the contingency program.

It was you who told me that you want to try to win more Hoosiers by running in TTE because Hoosier will be the spec tire for Spec Miata in SCCA in 2012, enabling you to win tires here and use them there (and use them here, in order to win them in the first place).

 

Also, note that you reset your old TTE track record at Sebring last June by a fairly significant margin (2:38.59 to 2:37.17, similar weather conditions, with the same car per my records), and that was on RA1s or another +7 point compound (because you don't have spare points to spend on Hoosiers, right?). So much for your claimed TTE disadvantage; you seem to do well in the class. Unfortunately, due to another situation in impound, I was not able to verify which brands of tires were being used on a few cars during this particular session (the first one on Sunday, 06 26 2011), although tire brands were confirmed on all cars after the other timed sessions that weekend.

 

Again, I told you several times about dyno re-classing your car to avoid the engine points, and it's in the rules as well. You chose not to, so it must not be much of a priority.

 

Enough of this, already. Plenty of other drivers are able to play by the rules.

 

Mark

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Balroks

Nothing a couple beers at the social can't fix.

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obzezzed350

You are going to need all the beer to get over your last place this weekend newbie!!!

 

(Glad you you made the jump to w2w! )

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Joshua

Mark, I do not think it is fair to assess points when the owner of the car states modifications are not present. That's the basis of what's healthy and good in competition - mutual respect.

 

I am very grateful for all of your selfless efforts as TT director and camaraderie in TT competition, and hope to see you back on the track soon, but think we should believe our participants until there is good reason to think otherwise. As a scientist, I would want to see the proof that head work was done before assessing points. Note that this is different than your assumption that head work must be proved to be NOT present. Alex is an excellent driver, so it does not surprise me that he can set records on +7 tires, but that does not mean he shouldn't be allowed to use all of the points he is entitled to.

 

A dyno reclass is one solution, but I do not think it should be a required solution.

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Balroks
You are going to need all the beer to get over your last place this weekend newbie!!!

 

(Glad you you made the jump to w2w! )

 

I hope to supersize at some point if I can afford the fuel/tires to, gotta keep the TTS fodder alive

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TurboShortBus
A dyno reclass is one solution, but I do not think it should be a required solution.

While I appreciate your position, an engine tear-down is another solution (per section 13), but I do not think that it is the most reasonable solution. A dyno reclass is convenient and comparatively easy, and will make everybody happy.

 

I am sure that other TTE drivers (who are not winning and are not claiming contingency prizes as a result) would appreciate knowing that the car that handily beat them was completely legal. The mutual respect extends to all other competitors as well.

 

With the significant value of the current contingency programs, it is even more important for all cars to be in compliance.

 

Mark

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Joshua

I agree that it is very important to have a compliant car, but we should trust our competitors until proven otherwise. I run my University classes that way, believing student's excuses until I find out otherwise, and when that happens, the hammer comes down.

 

Just a few more things to consider:

 

TTE minimum P/W = 16.5

1999 Miata - minimum car competition weight = 2400 @ 145rwhp = 16.5 W/P

1995 Miata - minimum car competition weight = 2330 @ 140rwhp = 16.5 W/P

 

These numbers are ~10rwhp higher than what can be reasonably expected from an unrestricted Spec Miata engine. However, there is no way to compensate for this deficiency (e.g. with less weight) unless one gets a dyno re-class. Further, re-class values for Miatas are higher than the minimum P/W ratios.

 

For example, my 2009 TTE re-class from Greg (1993 Miata with engine swap from a 2000) was 2355lbs @ 132rwhp, yielding an adjusted P/W ratio of 17.8. For 2011, a Miata will have to weigh more or have less power, pushing the ratio even higher.

 

If I were Alex, I would put my car on the dyno, send a letter to Greg to determine weight based on those rwhp numbers, and see which method would yield the most competitive car.

Edited by Guest

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TurboShortBus
If I were Alex, I would put my car on the dyno, send a letter to Greg to determine weight based on those rwhp numbers, and see which method would yield the most competitive car.

Where have I heard this before?

 

Mark

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BlkGt3

I like to trust people until proven wrong BUT I have come to the conclusion that when money is on the line it needs to be " Trust but Verify ". I will now go back to eating popcorn.

 

Peter

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kbrew8991

and of course a car that handles well will likely not be given numbers that place it close to the pw/weight cap of the class - only brick shaped ill-handling monsters get close as they have to make their time back up on the straights while the rest of us make time through the twisties

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TurboShortBus

TTD has been updated for both days. MIATA FIGHT!

 

Mark

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TurboShortBus

TTR has been updated for both days.

 

TTB has been updated for Sunday (pending a "clean" day on Saturday for the provisional driver).

 

I am still reviewing forms for the remaining "red list" drivers.

 

Mark

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TurboShortBus

TTA and TTB have been updated for Saturday.

 

Never mind that thing about TTD being updated; the driver has been switched to TTR due to a lack of classification forms (I have forms for him, but for a different car).

 

I might be able to drive a Spec Miata on both days; if so, then I might run in TT??? on Saturday and TTD on Sunday.

 

Mark

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TurboShortBus

TTF has been added.

 

Mark

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BlkGt3
TTF has been added.

 

Mark

 

Time to start a pool on how many laps the Celica/Chump car will complete.

 

Peter

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Mrsideways

I'll put money on the celica coming in WAY under weight.

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SpeedWorksRacing

Thanks for the confidence guys.

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BlkGt3
Thanks for the confidence guys.

 

Hey what are friends for anyway.

 

Peter

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Alex Bolanos
Mark, I do not think it is fair to assess points when the owner of the car states modifications are not present. That's the basis of what's healthy and good in competition - mutual respect.

 

I am very grateful for all of your selfless efforts as TT director and camaraderie in TT competition, and hope to see you back on the track soon, but think we should believe our participants until there is good reason to think otherwise. As a scientist, I would want to see the proof that head work was done before assessing points. Note that this is different than your assumption that head work must be proved to be NOT present.

 

There are two issues here:

 

1) The scope magnitude of this particular line item in the TT rules: Valve size change, modified, ported or polished OEM head (other than simple shaving of the head only) +6

 

2) The fact that every single Spec Miata MUST take the points without any proof needed.

 

Spec Miata "pro motors" use OEM valves and do not have modified, ported, or polished heads! None of those items are legal in Spec Miata yet McKay and Greenbaum insist on tagging the +6 points to miatas with rollcages and SM stickers.

 

Alex is an excellent driver, so it does not surprise me that he can set records on +7 tires, but that does not mean he shouldn't be allowed to use all of the points he is entitled to.

 

The point of Cliff and I trying to talk sense into them is to help the class and NASA as a whole. Just like in F1, good teams/drivers will find a way to adjust when rules change and excel. TTE/PTE is one of the most populated classes in NASA because of SM drivers who supersize, creating BS rules like this +6 head item alienates those people and affects class turnouts. As you can see in his posts, instead of taking what I've been saying and considering the value he chooses to insinuate that I and other Spec Miata drivers are cheaters that have modified heads.

 

A dyno reclass is one solution, but I do not think it should be a required solution.

 

Exactly. A dyno reclass for me is easy, my cars are on the dyno all the time. Telling a supersizing regional SM driver that if he doesn't produce a dyno sheet to run TTE that he will be classed in TTD with FORCE FED Miatas is bullshit. THEN, even if he does produce a dyno sheet, he's told that it needed to send it 2 weeks prior to the event to NASA National for a subjective "dyno reclass" procedure that may result in him being in TTD anyway is ridiculous.

 

Really?

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kbrew8991

why don't instead of attacking Mark you work with him to find a middle ground?

 

Aren't most SMs right around the same weight and the same whp? Why not work up a generic reclass that can be used by them and then it doesn't matter - you did say he already has on file some generic SM classifications, why not help him do the legwork to workup hp/weight reclasses for each of them and help out all your SM people that want to run?

 

Also, if you're really that peeved about that particular +6 - write in to Greg this offseason to get it reduced, or get a different line item worked up that does cover whatever goes on inside those heads during their "rebuild" that is less points.

 

There's plenty of good ways to get things going in the right direction for both yourself, your Miata people, and for fairly enforcing the ruleset (ie Mark) so going negative and attacking isn't wise

Edited by Guest

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King Tut
why don't instead of attacking Mark you work with him to find a middle ground?

 

Like an automatic +3 points instead.

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TurboShortBus
Exactly. A dyno reclass for me is easy, my cars are on the dyno all the time. Telling a supersizing regional SM driver that if he doesn't produce a dyno sheet to run TTE that he will be classed in TTD with FORCE FED Miatas is bullshit. THEN, even if he does produce a dyno sheet, he's told that it needed to send it 2 weeks prior to the event to NASA National for a subjective "dyno reclass" procedure that may result in him being in TTD anyway is ridiculous.

You were told about the dyno reclass last June, and a few weeks ago at the Championships, and it has been in the rules all year, so it's not like you haven't had enough time.

 

So, did you submit the dyno results and minimum competition weight to Greg to find out that you'll be in TTD with the car, or have you done nothing other than continue to talk nonsense? I'm betting on the latter, as I'm pretty sure that the car will end up in TTE with the reclass, but I suppose that it's easier to pound away on a keyboard and complain unnecessarily, even if your cars are on the dyno all the time (as you said).

 

As much as you would like to believe that Greg and others are out to get you, note that the dyno reclass formulas are standardized, no matter who the driver is. If Driver X submits his SM's dyno and weight information to Greg for a reclass, and then you submit your identical SM's dyno and weight information to Greg, then I can 100% guarantee you that your reclass will be the same as Driver X's.

 

Some people just aren't happy until everybody else isn't happy...

 

Mark

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Alex Bolanos
why don't instead of attacking Mark you work with him to find a middle ground?

 

Like an automatic +3 points instead.

 

Was going to respond to Ken but this pretty much summarizes what I would have said

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TurboShortBus
Why not work up a generic reclass that can be used by them and then it doesn't matter - you did say he already has on file some generic SM classifications, why not help him do the legwork to workup hp/weight reclasses for each of them and help out all your SM people that want to run?

The obstacle with assigning a spec TT classification to classes such as Spec Miata and Spec E30 is that the cars are not actually identical, as their rulesets say that "you may run part X" and "you may run part Y," but not all of the cars actually have all of the allowed parts because some modifications may or may not be performed for budget reasons, performance reasons, personal preference, etc. However, if the spec classes said that "you must run part X and "you must run part Y," then it would be easier to set up a spec TT classification for them.

 

With that being said, when somebody asks me, "I have a Spec Miata; where does it fit in TT?" all I can do is offer a generic classification sheet that takes into account all permitted modifications that are listed in the SM rules.

 

Note that this came in handy at the Championships, as 2 SM drivers wanted to super-size into Performance Touring, but did not have any forms (and did not know about the forms/points process). With the generic forms, I was at least able to place them in PTD; but, without any sort of forms, they would have been entered in SU (the equivalent of TTR).

 

Also, note that all Spec Miatas that compete in TT must take the +3 points for adding a limited slip differential, per Greg and his research with Mazda. According to his research, no SM-legal Miata ever came with an LSD in its base trim, so the points shall be assessed.

 

Mark

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kbrew8991

I hear you on the "spec" forms - I just wonder if you send in X weight and Ywhp that'll cover the front-running cars if it'll still come back at a base class low enough and/or save enough power points to land them in E in the end where they really sort-of belong anyway. Wouldn't take too much legwork, if only I knew enough about SMs to do it...

 

(KB, who is of the opinion if you can't outrun a SpecE30 or a Spec Miata with a real "E" car then you need to work on the car, your driving, or both - Esp since he can run mid-pack SM & SE30 times/position-in-a-race with his "F" car and he's kind of a hack at times .).

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