Rules Silly Season- Closed!

[nape]

John,

 

I'm not sure you know what the content of a GS Camaro is, but it has a Bosch ECU and an ABS system with an 8-position calibration selection. I don't think either of those items are legal. I think there are a few other things on that car that are illegal for AI. Also, Pratt & Miller doesn't build the GS Camaro. Riley does. If you are really looking for one of those cars, I believe Momentum is selling one or both of their cars for significantly less. I can put you in touch if you are...

 

Bosch ECU is legal, no restrictions in the rules.

 

ABS system is legal if it has a GM part number on a sticker and it looks the same. As the Ford fans say "How can you police it?"

 

Not trying to snipe, just showing how frustrating this is getting.

[D Algozine]

When we were "AI grassroots garage racers" we DREAMED of the series being recognized by Ford, Chevy & Dodge. A magazine ad or a Ford/Chevy parts catalog AI feature picture was always a goal. The masses wondered "Why oh Why do we not get national sponsorships or big company recognition!?!?!?" Best we could do was get the aftermarket guys like Griggs, Maximum and Global West, etc to recognize and boost the series. Today, 1 of the 3 auto manufacturers is very active in racing...American Iron Racing. GM is still a few years behind, but coming. Heck, we got a Big 3 contingency program!!! Yet, some suggest that Ford Racing not be here. Tsk...Tsk.

 

 

This type of pony car series described above already exists in two seperate forms, Grand Am and WC. What's the point of duplicating it again. The AI racers who have the interest and means have gone to these series. Some enjoy going back and forth between them. So far, AI has adopted one of their cars (just one, not all), and now is looking to compete for factory backing and national sponsorship with other pro series. Leave it to the pro's.

 

Besides, even these pro series evaluate each platform and have rules in place to level the playing field.

(NOT in favor of winners getting weight penalties, just parity among the platforms)

[MikeP-99Z]

7.3.2 All cars must have OEM front and rear shock towers in the same location as stock. AI cars must

utilize the OEM rear shock towers for rear shock attachment. Attachment of camber or caster adjusting

devices is unrestricted. The OEM rear shock tower must be intact and the shock mount must pass through

the original hole in the tower.

 

I believe this makes the Riley Grand Am GS Camaro illegal for AI due to the rear shock mounting.

[MikeP-99Z]

ABS system is legal if it has a GM part number on a sticker and it looks the same. As the Ford fans say "How can you police it?"

 

I fairly certain that the Riley Grand Am GS Camaro has a Bosch ABS system (M4?). I doubt it has a GM part number. That system is around $9k to $12K as I recall.

 

Doesn't the Ford have a TRW race ABS system? (Although TRW, this is sold through Ford Racing and has an associated part number, granted no manufacturer actually makes every part for every car.)

[T&A Racing]

7.3.2 All cars must have OEM front and rear shock towers in the same location as stock. AI cars must

utilize the OEM rear shock towers for rear shock attachment. Attachment of camber or caster adjusting

devices is unrestricted. The OEM rear shock tower must be intact and the shock mount must pass through

the original hole in the tower.

 

I believe this makes the Riley Grand Am GS Camaro illegal for AI due to the rear shock mounting.

 

Well if I or someone buys one can we get the rules changed the week before nationals next year. After all, wouldn't this be great to bring more cars in, and get the factory support from gm. Yea , this note may contain sarcasm .

[D Algozine]

When we were "AI grassroots garage racers" we DREAMED of the series being recognized by Ford, Chevy & Dodge. A magazine ad or a Ford/Chevy parts catalog AI feature picture was always a goal. Best we could do was get the aftermarket guys like Griggs, Maximum and Global West, etc to recognize and boost the series. Today, 1 of the 3 auto manufacturers is very active in racing...American Iron Racing. GM is still a few years behind, but coming. Heck, we got a Big 3 contingency program!!! Yet, some suggest that Ford Racing not be here. Tsk...Tsk.

 

(Remember...this is about FUN!)

 

 

Section from 2011 AI rules:

1. Introduction

The American Iron Series is a series with 2 classes: American Iron (AI) and American Iron Extreme (AIX). The American Iron Series was created to meet the needs of domestic sedan racers looking for a series specifically tailored to accommodate modified vehicles that are currently relegated to racing in Unlimited or Spec-limited classes. This class is designed to field a large high-profile group of American Musclecars and will unify fields of cars that currently race in other sanctioning organizations. This large field/open modification concept will provide racers and vendors access to a promotional racing venue containing similarly prepared and appearing cars that can run nearly unlimited configurations.

2. Intent

The American Iron Series Rules encourage each competitor to create an aftermarket-sourced configuration that will make their car perform at an optimum level. The intent of the rules is to allow competitors to use a combination of parts that will increase the performance and competitiveness of the vehicle and create promotional exposure for vendors. It is the intent of the series to serve as a “showcase” for aftermarket tuners and manufacturers and to create tremendous exposure for their products and services while providing a friendly, accommodating, and challenging environment for the series drivers. This approach is intended to create a reciprocal relationship that will encourage the aftermarket tuners to give their full support and attention to the competitors in the series.

 

So which one of these is it ? Because they do NOT appear to be remotely similiar to me. I read "aftermarket" in one and "factory" in the other.

I see such a contridictioin in Todds statement. I don't know what to think. You can't list all the other stuff and then finish with.... "Remeber this is for Fun".

 

The masses wondered "Why oh Why do we not get national sponsorships or big company recognition!?!?!?"

I'd like to know if the "masses", repesents the majority of AI racers, or just a select few? OR just ONE? How many AI racers are really conserned about this?

 

If we are chasing the factories , notoriety, and fame then you need to make that clear, because that will lead to some real spending. Becasue the factories love to come out with new stuff every year, regardless if it's one manufacturer or all three. Then watch the spening go crazy to keep up.

Sooner then later, I sinerely hope that there is some detailed clarification about the intent and future of the class.

 

Once the trend of making rule changes for the new stuff started, there needed to be some type of checks and balance system to keep it a level playing field. Not unlike ST or west coast Outlaw. And should likely include platform specific adjustments, as well (such as CMC). I truely hope that is the plan, and I hope its a fair plan. If anything the pendulum should cleary swing back the other way

 

I highlighted the part you aparently missed that is totally consistant with Todd's remarks.

 

I have to give you credit, you at least admit you want to see the new cars gone

 

Not sure what you mean about me wanting the new cars gone. Not the case, never has been. I've made it clear several times what I think is fair.

 

showcase” for aftermarket tuners and manufacturers

Not looking to split hairs, and really don't want to agrue the point, but I read this as, aftermarket manufacturers. I don't see the word OEM or factory or big three listed anywhere in the AI rules.

Just curious, do think thats what AI is about? That has never been my understanding.

 

May I suggest that guys/gals list thier names on these posts, at least thier first names. I really don't know many by there user name. Plus, I can't keep straight the names of folks who have emailed me, and match them with their user name.

[robbodleimages]

this has gotten downright painful.

[firehawkclone]

John,

 

I'm not sure you know what the content of a GS Camaro is, but it has a Bosch ECU and an ABS system with an 8-position calibration selection. I don't think either of those items are legal. I think there are a few other things on that car that are illegal for AI. Also, Pratt & Miller doesn't build the GS Camaro. Riley does. If you are really looking for one of those cars, I believe Momentum is selling one or both of their cars for significantly less. I can put you in touch if you are...

I know that Dean, my point is the changes were made for ford. Maybe they'll allow the Bosch setup legal for just the GM guys.

 

Not that most of us could afford it or the GS camaro.

[svttim]

Same old problems I see. Go run another organization and let this one die!

 

Warning: Unpopular post - Items in this post are closer then they appear

 

This year is my last attempt, so I'm going out in flames. My fear is that the powers to be, just don't get it, which seems crazy. The only other option is, they get it, and that's just the way it's going to be.

 

Dave Algozine,

Just give up and come to CMC. Me and Tommy did.

Its over man, AI is gone Dude,,,,,

 

I'm sorry I left you here by yourself( And TJ) buddy! I don't fear any driver or their pro team. I do fear rule changes that run everybody else off. There's more than a few s197 running cmc2 cars. They can build them down so can you!

 

Would they alter the rules if I showed up with a Pratt & Miller Stevenson Motorsports GS camaro in GS trim. No mustang even close to it. I don't think so!

 

Taking donations up to $200,000 for said car above!

 

They let every GM car leave the series, and had a good time doing it. FORD LOVE BABY!!!!

 

 

Actually TJ didnt need the help. Actually understand and agree with most of wht he says as well as others who want parity. Where we disagree is how to get there

 

Tim

[svttim]

showcase” for aftermarket tuners and manufacturers

Not looking to split hairs, and really don't want to agrue the point, but I read this as, aftermarket manufacturers. I don't see the word OEM or factory or big three listed anywhere in the AI rules.

Just curious, do think thats what AI is about? That has never been my understanding.

 

May I suggest that guys/gals list thier names on these posts, at least thier first names. I really don't know many by there user name. Plus, I can't keep straight the names of folks who have emailed me, and match them with their user name.

 

Dave, the issue I have with your approach is the lack of data to back up what you want to do. When we understand what is and isnt an advantage, steps should be taken to even things out. If data was collected at the nationals, I assume that data will be used for that purpose. Throwing weight penalties in any car may result in the pendulum swinging the other way. To increase car count, parity needs to be achieved. I would think, once the new Camaro has been out a while, we should see more of them

[nape]

... I would think, once the new Camaro has been out a while, we should see more of them

 

You might see them, but I believe they will be a non-player in factory trim in AI for at least 2-3 years. Stick axle, race prep by someone who can put the AI rule book to metal, and a generous budget, could see one in less time. IRS cars are hog tied to stock pickup points, stick axle cars are wide open with a few caveats.

 

On a lighter note, anyone heard any new gossip about the Pontiac contingency? I heard we might get it any day...

[brucebyerly]

... I would think, once the new Camaro has been out a while, we should see more of them

 

You might see them, but I believe they will be a non-player in factory trim in AI for at least 2-3 years. Stick axle, race prep by someone who can put the AI rule book to metal, and a generous budget, could see one in less time. IRS cars are hog tied to stock pickup points, stick axle cars are wide open with a few caveats.

 

On a lighter note, anyone heard any new gossip about the Pontiac contingency? I heard we might get it any day...

 

Was there not an AI "new gen" Camaro already built up north somewhere? Whatever happened to that car? It was a hell of a well documented build. Blue and Yellow and looked reeeeel nice.

 

I guess we've outlawed using Ford power in a Chevy

[robbodleimages]

groth's car

[ac427cobra]

You might see them, but I believe they will be a non-player in factory trim in AI for at least 2-3 years. Stick axle, race prep by someone who can put the AI rule book to metal, and a generous budget, could see one in less time. IRS cars are hog tied to stock pickup points, stick axle cars are wide open with a few caveats.

 

 

You do realize the new Camaro is an IRS? Or did I miss something?

[D Algozine]

Dave, the issue I have with your approach is the lack of data to back up what you want to do. When we understand what is and isnt an advantage, steps should be taken to even things out. If data was collected at the nationals, I assume that data will be used for that purpose. Throwing weight penalties in any car may result in the pendulum swinging the other way. To increase car count, parity needs to be achieved. I would think, once the new Camaro has been out a while, we should see more of them

 

ONE of the main basis for AI is the power to weight rule, the other big one is a spec tire. These two are designed to maintain an equal grip (tire), and similiar acceleration (power to weight). But, I'm sure we all know the most powerful control is the brake pedal. And one of the biggest advantage of the Boss spec car is the brake system. So, I don't know what else to do, but either get rid of the system or give it a weight penalty. Exactly how much, not sure. But, taking an educated guess, I'd say 150lbs is not enough and 250lb is likely too much. I'm sure there are some engineers who could come up with a rational way to determine what it should be. So, what if initially its too much, then an adjustment based on facts and data can be made. I'm guessing there already is some hard data that has been collected. I'd love to see that shared with the rest of the class (pun intented).

 

TJ, I heard that the Pontiac contingency is scheduled to arrive the same time as the Oldsmobile one, so your in luck

 

Mark, nice GS Camaro/National reference. I suppose the presedent has been set. No reason not to lobby for it See it even sounds silly when you say it (read it) now, but essentially thats what was done. And, no we don't want the AI rules to have to continue trying to keep up with one or more of the latest high end factory race stuff they can develop for the pro's.

[tacovini]

I just got back from an awesome NASA Texas race weekend! Congrats to Marshall Mosty for winning the 2011 Texas AI Championship in his Fox Mustang! On a related note, I had someone come up to me and comment that from reading this thread and seeing Nationals that "it is likely that even if you put Fox Mustangs or 3rd/4th Gen Camaros under that Rehagen tent that those same drivers with the same level of prep would likely finish in the same spots they did regardless of their platform after 40 minutes." Interesting opinion, but it does go to show that we do have to take "the whole package" into account. Everyone has a different skill level, different budget level, different prep level, different track familiarity level and there are even different regional car demographic levels...and all those factor into "the whole package". Marshall Mosty was the man to beat in Texas...but that doesn't necessarily mean sweeping changes need to be done to the Fox body Mustang.

 

With that said, I want you to know that I've read all the posts and I'm sure most of the other directors have as well. We've heard the good, the bad and the ugly...and now I think this thread has reached it's useful life as we now seem to be hearing from the same people and the same issues said differently a number of different times. As such, I'll try to clarify a few things and lock the thread down and let it move on.

 

2011 Silly Season is reaching an end and it's time to start drafting some minor rules tweaks. Contrary to what some may think, I don't have a particular preference one way or another on the rules package. I do want safe, competitive, relevant ponycar racing with high car counts and that's what we'll strive for. I believe American Iron racing has something no other series has, and that is to span decades of pony cars and have them all compete at the same time. How cool is it that Mustangs and Camaros from nearly every decade were represented at Nationals? THAT is what we want to foster. We don't want to have ONLY 2005+ cars out there...and we don't want to have ONLY S197 Boss Mustangs...and we don't want to have ONLY 80's & 90's Mustangs & Camaros. So to reiterate one of my goals (3rd time), we need to work on "parity among the older and newer cars"....and that is a priority.

 

The introduction of the series rules clearly state that the class is designed to "field a large high profile group of American Musclecars and will unify fields of cars that currently race in other racing organizations [or no longer have a place to race]." The "allowances" in recent years were in large part to do just what our charter says. With the end of the Mustang Challenge series, we had an opportunity to welcome those relatively stock cars into our relatively non-stock series...and many of our racers all wanted it. In my eyes, the transmission issue was almost solely a technicality on cost/availbility issue and not about a performance upgrade to help that platform win races. Believe me, our AI ruleset is more open than the current Grand Am or World Challenge or Mustang Challenge specs.

 

Allowing newer technology (in whole or in part) to compete with older technology is not an easy task...and will require some flexibility. We can make some adjustments, and if they don't hit the mark...make further adjustments. While we hate to do mid-season changes, if it's warranted, we can always tweak things a bit. Adjustments go both ways and can be to the newer cars or the older cars.

 

Lastly, I don't see American Iron as a direct competitor to World Challenge or Grand Am. I see American Iron as the ultimate training grounds for those racers who may want to race with the big boys and do well...AND as an excellent venue for those grassroots racers who don't have the interest or the means to run WC or GA....to have the same, if not better, racing experience. I've spoken with more than one driver who went to the big leagues and said they enjoy themselves more in American Iron.

 

I'm sure we'll talk more in the coming weeks...and I do not have a tire update at this time.