Rules Silly Season- Closed!

[Aaron B]

Spec S197? yeah I know...but there is a possibility of other manufacturers like I mentioned, Todd N's Camaro and Greg's Challenger so that won't work, but I get it

 

Power Levels: Well, if a unified AI1 asked for a power increase collectively to 8.7:1 then Bump AI2 to 8.3:1? with the vast ability to tune those newer cars and engine packages, my guess is no one in AI2 would complain - my guess is it would be a mute point if AI1 did not ask for a power increase?

[nape]

Here's why I've been complaining, quoted from the CMC Forums:

 

"Ive been building an AI 89 Mustang for the past 2 years, and after watching nationals, and seeing the new rules there is no point in finishing it. The little guy will cease to exhist in that series."

[stevepoe]

Here's why I've been complaining, quoted from the CMC Forums:

 

"Ive been building an AI 89 Mustang for the past 2 years, and after watching nationals, and seeing the new rules there is no point in finishing it. The little guy will cease to exhist in that series."

 

Who ever wrote that knows something and this is what I'm talking about.

ai, ai 2, cmc, cmc 2 whatever you want to freaking call it .

 

now is the time to add a new class or blend a class. With cmc and cmc 2 blending as one those older fox guys are going to get a beat down if all they get is a hp bump and have to run up against a s197 in true cmc2 race form. if that happens I can wait to see all the bitching over on that board . Coilovers, phb and tq arm if you ask me ,"HEY" Sounds like a older ai car ..........

 

whatever happens I'm sure most if not all will be racing someplace in 2012 . I just think it would be cool to see a bunch of ai / cmc style cars out running togther instead of just the few it could be .

 

just love the cmc boys posting the comments about how they don't want anything to do with ai but they are fast on the ai boards for a post...........classic

 

to bad AIX is so extreme and out of control .......... can't blame the few though that built what they wanted and run in it though........

 

I honestly think that making abs illegal would be bad for ai in the long run .

Edited October 17, 2011 by Guest

[stevepoe]

double post "sorry"

[Glenn]

Here's why I've been complaining, quoted from the CMC Forums:

 

"Ive been building an AI 89 Mustang for the past 2 years, and after watching nationals, and seeing the new rules there is no point in finishing it. The little guy will cease to exhist in that series."

 

Who ever wrote that knows something and this is what I'm talking about.

ai, ai 2, cmc, cmc 2 whatever you want to freaking call it .

 

now is the time to add a new class or blend a class. With cmc and cmc 2 blending as one those older fox guys are going to get a beat down if all they get is a hp bump and have to run up against a s197 in true cmc2 race form. if that happens I can wait to see all the bitching over on that board . Coilovers, phb and tq arm if you ask me ,"HEY" Sounds like a older ai car ..........

 

whatever happens I'm sure most if not all will be racing someplace in 2012 . I just think it would be cool to see a bunch of ai / cmc style cars out running togther instead of just the few it could be .

 

just love the cmc boys posting the comments about how they don't want anything to do with ai but they are fast on the ai boards for a post...........classic

 

to bad AIX is so extreme and out of control .......... can't blame the few though that built what they wanted and run in it though........

 

I honestly think that making abs illegal would be bad for ai in the long run .

 

 

You really are way off. The S-197 is the only car in CMC that stands out performance wise w/ the current rule set. So there will be no HP bump for the Fox or any CMC car (no CMC 2 anymore starting 2012.) to make it even. I have seen you post this a few times and I'm not sure where your getting this idea that the Fox will be given anything (hp bump). Will there be an adjustment for the S-197? Time will tell. We still have more data to collect.

I can tell you that in CMC2 the Fox , the SN-95, the SN-99, the 3rd gen, the 4th gen are all very close performance wise (as well as in CMC1 for that matter). I feel they are closer than they have ever been inthe history of CMC. The best race of 2011 for me (in a 4th gen) was finishing 3rd to a Fox and an SN-95. We were literaly nose to tail every lap the whole race. High speed track w/ a good mix of low speed stuff.

When the 4th gen was first allowed in CMC, it had a minimum weight of 3400 lbs. Today that seems crazy.

I can tell you this, no CMC Director will let there be a "must have" platform. The "must have" car will get slowed down. We will overshoot if we have to so that we are sure we find parity. If anyone thinks they will build a CMC car and dominate due to the platform, your sadly mistaken. Some folks have dominated, but we often find it is due to the driver and not the car.

[T&A Racing]

Glenn. I think he only ment the normal bump in power from cmc1 to cmc2, not a special bump just for being a fix body. I would find it a little odd though that a mostly stock twenty year old car would handle as well as a new platform. In AI there is really very little left from twenty years ago when the car was built by Ford. I actually know almost nothing about CmC so I could just be all wet.

[Glenn]

The Fox gets a -100lb weight break. SN-95 gets -50lbs. SN-99 get -50 lbs if it has an iron block.

The S-197 and LS1 4th gen gets +50lbs. Weight is a good equalizer (not perfect). But w/ the limited/restricted parts we are allowed, it goes a long ways. Base weight is 3200 and adjusted from there.

I'll give the Fox a TQ Arm, but he's gonna have to run 3200lbs like I do w/ mine.

 

Keep in mind that the Fords are allowed to add panhard bars and the like. So there are some upgrades over OEM written into the rules.

[D Algozine]

This is very frustrating, so bare with me. The suggestion to add another class was looked at last winter. Seems crazy to cut a small field of cars in half, just because a small group won't race without that system. 2-3 cars in a class is not racing. What do you think the Nationals would look like? Maybe 7-10 cars, per class. Add another class, and you still have to deal with the race ABS. GM and Dodge are currentely not providing such a system that is "commercially"available. Just cut the BS and adopt a "New Mustang Challenge" class. Seriously, why not? Just like CMC doesn't want anything to do with the "New"AI, maybe the "old" AI doesn't want a new Mustang challenge type class to run under the AI banner. Branch off a whole new class. Make it everything Ford Racing "new". Ford Racing would love it and so would all the Ford engineers who are currently in AI. They could build a new and improved car every year, and the guys fortunate enough to have the money, could buy and new car every year. Think of the revenue for Rhagen and other pro Mustang builders....... Ok, I got a little sarcastic, but I'm serious about the premise.

It's also frustrating because, several great AI guys have left the series in the last few years. Most are GM guys. That would be an incredible blunder to add another class, after running off so many guys already. Recap: pi$$ off many grassroots guys, which dwindles the car count down, only to divide whats left into 2. What a cluster. Nearly all of this headache is over that stupid race ABS.

If guys want to bail out of AI over not being able to use that system, then that throws a huge red flag up for me. Really, you have to have that system or what?...... You would no longer have an unfair advantage over nearly the entire field, so you're going to ST? Which is equally crazy why ST allows it. Maybe they will make the change, wouldn't that be ironic. A pro race system belongs in the professional race serie's that it was designed for, its really just that simple. It doesn't fit in AI and never will. You can make as many rule changes, adjustment and all the other BS, but it doesn't fit.

[nape]

to bad AIX is so extreme and out of control .......... can't blame the few though that built what they wanted and run in it though........

 

I'll bet you could build Griswold's AIX car for less then a Boss 302S. Come on, it's only $78.5k!

 

http://www.rehagenracing.com/

 

[D Algozine]

to bad AIX is so extreme and out of control .......... can't blame the few though that built what they wanted and run in it though........

 

I'll bet you could build Griswold's AIX car for less then a Boss 302S. Come on, it's only $78.5k!

 

http://www.rehagenracing.com/

 

 

Holy $hit, are you serious. I didn't realize they were that cheap. I'll take two, just in case one breaks

After watching the video of Rusty's car on the 4 post shacker again, I thought I could build my own. The problem is that when I get a couple of big guys shaking my 4 post lift, it starts to lean terrribly and the car nearly falls off. Am I doing something wrong?

[stevepoe]

to bad AIX is so extreme and out of control .......... can't blame the few though that built what they wanted and run in it though........

 

I'll bet you could build Griswold's AIX car for less then a Boss 302S. Come on, it's only $78.5k!

 

http://www.rehagenracing.com/

 

 

I use mdf for a splitter tj...You know this ......

 

Glenn,

 

Sorry .

I'm talking about cmc cars getting a bump to cmc2 rwhp . I guess many have already made the jump though so maybe that is what your not understanding.

[Grizlbits]

For the record I had $72,000 in my car before I blew the transmission that came with the car. So the new (rebuilt) G-Force transmission, good for 1200 HP added $3600 with shifter. I also just purchased a new CF hood 2" wider, and a spare splitter for $1200. So my total build is $72,000 + 3600 + 1200 = $76,800. Not cheap, but neither is racing. I don't think it is bad for having one of the fastest cars on the track.

 

Wow, my $3600 G-Force transmission looks like a steal compared to the AI transmissions.

 

I did buy the caged roller from Jeremy for cheap and sold a bunch of spares that came with the purchase, but still, it is about the same amount or less than a lot of $100,000 AI cars that I have seen. The above costs include Paul's Auto making the entire exhaust & turbo system (I don't have the mad SkIlz like Paul), wiring the car (I suck at that) and setting up the fuel system. I fabbed the entire rear suspension (9 inch with an adjustable watts) including the axle, the bodywork, seat, dry sump, intercooler duct work etc.

 

I feel that you can make a bad ass AIX car for about $20,000 - $30,000 more than an AI car. Operating expenses are more than AI cars, but that is the cost for speed.

 

SOME of the AI & AIX problem is that all new people coming into the system have a very high bar to reach to be competitive in the Great Lakes and Midwest region. Both the AI & AIX regions are full of national champions. Paul & myself in AIX; Dean, Ryan, TJ and others in AI are going to be very hard to beat. It is the same thing with SCCA A-Sedan in the cendiv, you have John Heinricy and Andy McDermott to beat. That is not an easy task. CMC2 does not have a dominant force yet (until Anders decides to loose the 300# his car is over weight).

Edited October 17, 2011 by Guest

[Sidney]

Love it, any one want to sell a Cmc car?

 

Mark,

 

You want to add a Pontiac to your stable?

 

Sidney

#64 CMC

[Jim P.]

Love it, any one want to sell a Cmc car?

 

Mark,

 

You want to add a Pontiac to your stable?

 

Sidney

#64 CMC

LOL! My son wants to sell our CMC2 Camaro and go race in SpecE30l!

 

Guys - we get in this urination match every year - it is clear that the car manufacturers are building better and faster cars and the drivers are getting better. As one of the only two(2) fox body Mustangs in AI or AIX who competed at the 2011 Nationals - I can honestly say that the older cars are currently not as competitive as they once were. I am sure we can make them competitive without much effort. The solution is not to penalize the new cars but give concessions to the older cars to make them equal. Please quit yer whining about the new bells and whistles on the new cars and let's figure out how we can add bells and whistles to the older cars to keep them in the game.

 

-Jim

1979 Mustang #84 AIX

 

NOTE: the above statement is made a a competitor in AI/AIX/CMC2 and not as a NASA Official.

[47car]

Splitting AI is a bad idea. We need car counts and that will crush that plan. There are so many ways to equalize the cars. I think that AI should just make the jump to using Traqmate solely. This way you can monitor each top car during the race and use all the data to start tweaking the rules to fix any issues. The Traqmate will show if these new Boss cars have an advantage in accel, cornering or braking. After we have sufficient data then tweaks are made. easy. It also makes it easier to see if the driver is making the hot lap or the car is.

 

Once again, ABS should be preferrably gone or secondarily penalized. This should be a drivers series. Why are you guys so attached to your ABS? Good luck competing in ST2 against Vette and Porsche aero with your brick of a mustang. Oh yeah, you also might like buying a new set of race slicks every weekend like the top ST2 guy does out here (so I have heard).

 

Btw, we have very tight racing out here with Foxes, SN95s and a National Champ in a 197. Given the 197 doesnt have the new Boss engine or the tranny (which may or may not need an "adjustment") or the ABS but the chassis itself does not appear to have an advantage on the west coast. Ryan, driving a Fox and Ross driving the 197 have had many an epic battle.

[stevepoe]

Splitting AI is a bad idea. We need car counts and that will crush that plan. There are so many ways to equalize the cars. I think that AI should just make the jump to using Traqmate solely. This way you can monitor each top car during the race and use all the data to start tweaking the rules to fix any issues. The Traqmate will show if these new Boss cars have an advantage in accel, cornering or braking. After we have sufficient data then tweaks are made. easy. It also makes it easier to see if the driver is making the hot lap or the car is.

 

Once again, ABS should be preferrably gone or secondarily penalized. This should be a drivers series. Why are you guys so attached to your ABS? Good luck competing in ST2 against Vette and Porsche aero with your brick of a mustang. Oh yeah, you also might like buying a new set of race slicks every weekend like the top ST2 guy does out here (so I have heard).

 

Btw, we have very tight racing out here with Foxes, SN95s and a National Champ in a 197. Given the 197 doesnt have the new Boss engine or the tranny (which may or may not need an "adjustment") or the ABS but the chassis itself does not appear to have an advantage on the west coast. Ryan, driving a Fox and Ross driving the 197 have had many an epic battle.

 

 

the st2 national champion is a boss s mustang...... and did it on a 275-35-18 r6 in ai trim..........."just saying"

Edited October 17, 2011 by Guest

[UBR]

I know abs is being blamed for all current evils, but I think we need to be cautious banning new technology.

 

And to clarify, neither of our cars has abs.

 

4 years ago when Mark and I decided to go racing, we looked at SCCA and NASA. One of the main factors for not choosing SCCA was their antiquated rules around fuel injection. We had the Fox then and just because of the FI, we had to run in ITE with everything else that didn't fit in a "real" class. The few events we ran that year were a joke. Our "class" had cars that had professional race suspension, many had been former pro cars, most with 2-3 times the hp. But that's where we "belonged" instead of A-Sedan because of the FI. NASA, at the time, embraced new cars, including the new technology that came with them. We shouldn't go backwards because of a percieved advantage.

 

"Penalties" seem to be working in CMC. Even the +/- system used in TTS/T/U would be better than simply banning anything new.

 

It doesn't seem like a stretch to work out reasonable rules to maintain parity...

 

How about cars with abs have to run 255 Toyos. Everyone else on Hoosiers... Except for the Boss Mustangs... They have to run 225 full tread Toyos.

[svttim]

Nearly all of this headache is over that stupid race ABS.

If guys want to bail out of AI over not being able to use that system, then that throws a huge red flag up for me. Really, you have to have that system or what?...... You would no longer have an unfair advantage over nearly the entire field, so you're going to ST? Which is equally crazy why ST allows it. Maybe they will make the change, wouldn't that be ironic. A pro race system belongs in the professional race serie's that it was designed for, its really just that simple. It doesn't fit in AI and never will. You can make as many rule changes, adjustment and all the other BS, but it doesn't fit.

 

I think if you read back, the issue is not the race ABS. Hell, I dont think my car has it anyway. The issue is, makeing a car not competative by slapping on a bunch of weight because Dean Martin kicked someones a$$.

[D Algozine]

Clarifier :

Several have referenced embracing new technology and not letting the class get outdated. We are 180 degrees from that situation. $hit rolls out of FR and it's in the rule book a month later.

Besdies, we are mainly talking about the race ABS, which is a proprietary race part that is designed for pro racing for a single platfrom. And for some reason, because it has a Ford label on it, it has been made legal. There are thousand of race only parts from hundreds of manufacturers, and several other race only ABS's that are not AI legal (and not looking to open the gates, either) A general statement about keeping up with technology does not apply to this situation. This is pro race technology, not OEM technology.

[wstukas]

LOL! My son wants to sell our CMC2 Camaro and go race in SpecE30l!

 

Blasphemy! Brandon is a traitor!

[marshallmosty]

7.8.3 Any OEM Anti-lock brake system (ABS) is allowed which includes ABS valve body and electronics as delivered from the factory.

Are FR500 cars "delivered from the factory" in the sense they go to an outside shop (non-Ford) to get some of their "bits and pieces".

 

7.8.4 For AI, Updating and backdating of factory ABS systems into new and older cars within the vehicle's parent company is allowed. (i.e. - Mustangs may use any Ford produced ABS unit such as FR500. Camaros may use any GM produced ABS unit such as Corvette Z06 etc.

What is the break point between ABS unit? HCU and electronics = ABS unit, or is it just the HCU, or just the electronics.

 

7.8.6 Non-OEM ABS units or ABS units not available for public commerical sale are prohibited.

The "hot" ABS unit is a Ford Racing part. Has anyone looked at Ford Motor Company = Ford Racing. Are they both considered OEM, or is Ford Racing a "tuner" for Ford. Like MM, Griggs, Steeda, etc. They just happen to be under part of the same umbrella.

 

 

Posted as a racer...

[UBR]

Besdies, we are mainly talking about the race ABS.

Do we know who is running the race module?

 

I haven't seen a list of who admits having it. Just comments about the dominant cars (Dean, Ryan, Brett) must be running it. When a pro/semi-pro driver kicks our butt by 2 seconds, I assume it's their mad skill. (Or my/our lack of skill) If just adding a FR abs mdule will make us competetive, I think I see my next winter project.

 

At RA, there clearly seemed like 2 "classes" in AI. Dave, Mark, Brian and Jason seemed to be fairly close. Then there was Dean's car (Jeremy) and Audrey.

 

Just thinkin'

 

j

[robbodleimages]

the street boss 302 mustang gets sent to a post assembly line contractor to get some bits. my understanding is that this is not unusual for ford specialty cars.

[rpoz27]

Splitting AI is a bad idea. We need car counts and that will crush that plan. There are so many ways to equalize the cars. I think that AI should just make the jump to using Traqmate solely. This way you can monitor each top car during the race and use all the data to start tweaking the rules to fix any issues. The Traqmate will show if these new Boss cars have an advantage in accel, cornering or braking. After we have sufficient data then tweaks are made. easy. It also makes it easier to see if the driver is making the hot lap or the car is.

 

Once again, ABS should be preferrably gone or secondarily penalized. This should be a drivers series. Why are you guys so attached to your ABS? Good luck competing in ST2 against Vette and Porsche aero with your brick of a mustang. Oh yeah, you also might like buying a new set of race slicks every weekend like the top ST2 guy does out here (so I have heard).

 

Btw, we have very tight racing out here with Foxes, SN95s and a National Champ in a 197. Given the 197 doesnt have the new Boss engine or the tranny (which may or may not need an "adjustment") or the ABS but the chassis itself does not appear to have an advantage on the west coast. Ryan, driving a Fox and Ross driving the 197 have had many an epic battle.

 

Corey, your idea on traqmate is great but how does it correct for density altitude and ram air? Cars in TX will lose 20hp in 105 degree heat than they will in 40 degree air, and the dynojet corrects for that with the air station. I suppose as long as everyone is within a margin of error on the same acceleration graph, that's fine...but then figuring in all the correction factor modifications seems it would be a nightmare to track. Some regions aren't so lucky to have that mid 70's climate like you guys on the west coast....not to mention, those of us with effective ram air can't tune for it on a stationary dyno...but more of a guess. Like the idea, just need more thought through it to feel warm and fuzzy.

[rpoz27]

7.8.3 Any OEM Anti-lock brake system (ABS) is allowed which includes ABS valve body and electronics as delivered from the factory.

Are FR500 cars "delivered from the factory" in the sense they go to an outside shop (non-Ford) to get some of their "bits and pieces".

 

7.8.4 For AI, Updating and backdating of factory ABS systems into new and older cars within the vehicle's parent company is allowed. (i.e. - Mustangs may use any Ford produced ABS unit such as FR500. Camaros may use any GM produced ABS unit such as Corvette Z06 etc.

What is the break point between ABS unit? HCU and electronics = ABS unit, or is it just the HCU, or just the electronics.

 

7.8.6 Non-OEM ABS units or ABS units not available for public commerical sale are prohibited.

The "hot" ABS unit is a Ford Racing part. Has anyone looked at Ford Motor Company = Ford Racing. Are they both considered OEM, or is Ford Racing a "tuner" for Ford. Like MM, Griggs, Steeda, etc. They just happen to be under part of the same umbrella.

 

 

Posted as a racer...

 

Post up how much it would cost and how to put that unit in a fox/SN95 or a Camaro and we'll talk. By the way, the Z06 unit DOES NOT WORK IN A 4th gen CAMARO without the entire corvette harness in the car along with the other computers. It also has traction control and stability control....which are illegal in AI.

 

The equivalent units to match the FR abs units are in the range of $12k from Bosch.