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Rules Silly Season- Closed!


tacovini

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Dave, I drove a 500S for a couple of days out at Miller; the racing ABS was incredible - it definitely allows you brake in ways you would never think possible in non-ABS car. Basically, you almost stand on brakes and the car responds in total control. Maybe better drivers would disagree. In my opinion, this is an advantage that NASA needs to address - either by allowances given to non-race ABS cars or restrictions placed on race ABS cars.

 

my opinion. it makes slower guys faster but I don't think it makes the fast guys any more fast

 

Wow, then this is easy. If it's of little or no value then removing it should be of no consern to any of the "fast guys".

So Steve, I assume you built your car from scratch, as you typically do ? Then why put the system on your car? Extra front end ballast? Dean probably just has it on his car, because all of the other Grand Am guys have it, and it looks cool He likely installs it in all of his new customer cars he builds because.......it's really of no value ???

Come on really, FR spent hundreds of thousands of dollars, countless man hours, and testing for thier cars to be highly competitive at the Pro level, and their race ABS doesn't really help fast guys. That makes absolutely no sense at all. You can't really expect anyone to believe that?

Thanks for your input, but I asked for an honest opinion. You could have just remained silent like the rest of the guys who are racing with it are going to do.

 

 

Dave , honestly you have no clue wtf your talking about. I'd explain that to you if you actually showed up more the one time a year to race with us . I'm done .

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For the amateur racer, which is most of us, the racing ABS has definitely got to help, therefore, giving advantage over another amateur race with same skills and no ABS - so there still has to be some leveling of the playing field.

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Non Scientific data, But:

Last year, last Midwest race of the year at Putnam. Dean could not run down TJ. There was a dyno and the top cars were tested, and everyone passed. Why was TJ able to stay out front ? Also, consider Dean has run down the entire National field, from the rear, three years in a row. One reason, TJ is a very accomplished racer and builder, And, a likely contributing factor, the playing field was leveled. Putnam has only one hard braking zone, so no real advantage for the ABS. The rest of the corners are tap, set the car and go. Again, not a definative test, but something to consider.

I've heard the argument that its not the system, its the driver. May be partially true, but doesn't change the fact that the system is on unfair advantage.

Unplug it (or pull it, what ever needs to be done) and lets go racing !!!

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HOLY CRAP!!!!!

ARE WE DOING THIS AGAIN????

 

I have read page 1, 2, 14, and 15. Did I miss anything regarding rules changes or was it just more bitching about ABS?

 

I have an idea...

Let's all pitch in and rent Mid Ohio for a day. With 40 guys, it will be cheap. I'll bring a car there with the awesome T56R transmission and FR ABS system. We can all drive it and see how fast we are. We can even look at data to see who is faster and where. Then, we can go to the Goodyear garage and measure our dicks...

 

RULE CHANGE:

 

I'm okay with pre-1979 Mustangs cutting shock towers and fixing rear shock geometry...

 

6.1.1 Track Width & Wheelbase

- Set one track width rule, 76"

-I don't care if it costs more or less, but complaining will stop.

-The S197 Mustang will be faster so we will need to add another 100# to those cars...

 

AI / CMC Dyno Procedure:

- Line Item #6. "Hood shall be open during test runs"

-Change to: Hood shall be closed during test runs to represent "As-Raced" condition.

-This will improve competition because aftermarket open element cold air kits show 10-12HP higher RWHP due to the higher amount of air the filter is able to draw in. This phenomenon was demonstrated to Todd at Nationals this year. This will result in a nearly 100# weight penalty strictly due to the dyno procedure. Since most aftermarket system utilize this design, this will have significant impact on drivers who use it as compared to cars with “closed-box” cold air kits (like the factory system on a 2011+ Mustang GT).

-This will reduce costs because most cars use this style of cold air induction kit. Changing the rule will cost NOTHING. Modifying cars and doing extensive dyno testing will get expensive for those who use this style of CAI.

-This will provide more clarity because elsewhere in the rules, it reads that cars are to be dyno tested “As-Raced”. I have never race with my hood on the prop rod…

 

 

Now….

Oh, where to start???

 

ABS: ABS is a safety net, not a hammock. Guys who rely on ABS to stop their cars every lap crash. ABS is not perfect. It F’s up once in a while too. It’s the driver’s responsibility to read the track conditions and brake appropriately. It doesn’t matter if you have ABS or not if you do stupid stuff.

 

When I was just getting into NASA a few years ago, I actually built my Piloti car as a CMC2 car (or at least that was my intent) when I realized that ABS was not allowed in CMC. When I lobbied for a change to this rule, I was told “Let's face it, well executed threshold braking is going to be faster, deeper, better than ABS” (cut and pasted from email). I’ve heard other say the same thing and I will agree. ABS is really a benefit when some wobble head chops you in a corner and you instinctively jump on the brakes way too hard. Without ABS, you’re going to impound, filling out paperwork, and getting DQ’d… You’re also going to flat spot more tires and spend even more money on Tires (especially Toyos). ABS SAVES COST! There, I said it. Suck it!

 

I tend to believe that the crux of the issue is not so much the ABS as I think it is the fact that the brake system on the new cars is properly designed from a m/c piston size, caliper piston sizing, pedal ratio, booster design, and most importantly, properly balanced friction material. Yes, Ford Racing has done a lot of the R&D on much of these components. They have done it for other series, and it benefits AI. Is it a bad thing that an OEM actually gives a crap about racing components that can actually be used on production cars??? Really? For all the times you and I have bitched about not having good, durable race parts, now we’re gonna bitch because FORD actually listened and gives a crap about us? Really? Understand this from a broad perspective and not your selfish, what about me perspective. What about the future? What are we going to do when the next best thing comes out? For crying out loud! This is starting to sound like SCCA. Let’s not make our Bug-Eyed Sprites and Midgets less competitive; let’s just crap on anything that comes in that is better. How’s that working for SCCA?

 

It’s the progression of evolution. It’s going to happen. The rules have not changed significantly in many years. If many of the guys that are bitching on this thread had their cars built to the rules, I might be more inclined to listen harder (to what you are currently bitching about). But look at Patrick Lindsay’s car from 2009. Slap a Boss engine in that car and we’re all F’d!!! Oh wait? That’s a Fox body car. It can’t be so… Where has Jay Andrew been? You think everyone with an S197 car doesn’t know that he is dangerous in that car and can win? That just refreshed my memory and I’ll have to rely on Leo for the real number here… Leo Wanstreet’s car... A FOX BODY car. I drove that car at Mid Ohio in June. If I recall, I ran a 1:33.2 on my third or fourth lap ever driving his car. Unfortunately, on the next lap That was most definitely a LOW 1:32 lap, I mis-shifted the car and hurt the motor. That car is getting close to the limits of many rules. If I recall, it has an ABS unit from a 1995 Mustang Cobra. If you can wire in a power and a ground wire, that system will work on your brand X car. It was an example of a car that had a well designed braking system. Get off the S197 bashing bus and realize that it is only because of parts availability that makes these cars fairly inexpensive to make competitive. Like it or not, the rules package in American Iron allows for an expensive car. Think about what the rules actually allow.. imagine if someone wanted to spend the money on wind tunnel testing and aero development… It won’t matter what make or body style. Anyone that understand aero and has the dough to develop it will kick the crap out of all of us. It’s just not the flavor of the month.

 

I just popped back and saw even MORE on this… Someone mentioned about the”talent pool” in AI. Well, I can guaranty you that you can put a different ABS controller in the car and I will feel it if I get into it. I will tell you if it has too much front actuation, or too much rear actuation. You want to try changing up some pads? I’ll tell you which has more bite and where it is in the braking event. I’ll also tell you if the pads are temperature sensitive or not. Yes, I can feel that crap and that’s what makes me the driver I am. Trained drivers can feel this stuff. That is the advantage. TRAINING…

If you need training, please call me. I will work with anyone in any brand of vehicle. I will make your car and you faster. Don’t take that as cocky. It’s just a plain fact and my track record will back it up. However… You need to be ready to spend money on the parts you need, not the parts that some aftermarket company gave you to try…

 

The talent pool in AI this year was tremendous. I would say that the talent pool in AI this year went a bit deeper than any World Challenge GTS class race this year (because some of those guys were here)! That is not a dig on WC drivers. I am merely saying that there is a LOT of talent in AI and a lot of really well built cars.

 

Enough on brakes and ABS ranting. On to the next rant…

 

TIRES:

 

I like Hoosiers. Plain and simple. It’s a good tire at a good price. You think Toyo is a cheaper route? I can tell you that I spent FAR more money on Toyo tires for the 2010 National championships than I did for 2011. Why?? I won some flippin tires during the year. Yes, Hoosier actually GIVES YOU TIRES when you win. $100 Toyo bucks? F that! When I won the 2010 National championship, I did not win enough money to buy ONE SET of Toyo tires. In fact, I could only buy 2.8 tires. What a joke!!! Hoosier is going to give me some tires AND $1,000? Oh, and they are going to give tires all the way back to like 5th place? What did Toyo give for P2 in 2010? NADA that I am aware of… Toyo tires are NOT the solution here guys. You want to race on Toyos? Do you recall what Pat did in 2009? He showed up with 4 brand new sets of Toyos shaved to 2/32nds so they were new rubber at the right tread depth. Is that how we control costs? If you only buy one set of tires for the year and are complaining about not being competitive, go away! You’re not going to win regardless. Tires make a BIG difference regardless of brand. Fresher is softer and better. If you’re worried about costs for tires, buy the take off tires from guys like me who put new stuff on when needed. I know I can run them longer, but they are .3-.4 seconds slower than the new stuff. I come to win, that’s why I run new tires. Same will be true regardless of the brand. It’s a crazy argument that will always net the same result. I say make them as cheap as possible. I don’t care what they are. Having a REAL contingency program like Hoosier is nice too…

 

The Continental tire is a good tire that is cheaper than the Toyo and probably lasts about as long. I’ve sold MANY take offs from our Grand Am program and guys have run them on DE cars for a fully season (after we’ve put 2 hours on them). Again, it won’t matter much when guys show up with brand new tires. They are going to be faster just due to a fresh tire…

 

Ok, that is all for now. I’ve got to get back to work. I need to make more money to buy more tires, so I can win more races, so I can work more and make more money, and buy more tires, so I can win more races, so I can work more and make more money and buy more tires…

 

I will not likely stay up to date on this thread. If you have any feedback for me directly, or just want to call me an A-Hole, please email me directly at [email protected]. I think most of you either have my phone number or have access to someone who does. I take A-Hole texts too… J

 

Seriously though, I’m all about better competition, but if we are going to make all the cars equal, we need to do something about eh body contact rule. It’s WAY to harsh for real racers who understand that a little contact is going to happen. Malicious attacks are one thing, but if the two individuals involved in the incident say they are fine with what happened on the racetrack then the officials need to leave it at that. It’s not rape if we both consented to it….

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WAIT! I had more....

 

Adding 200# to an S197 car is stupid. I'll just show up with a 500 HP car so that when you do the P/W calc that 200# has less of an impact... Then I'll have a 4750# weapon. Can't wait to see how the ABS handles that....

 

And the street ABS with Toyo vs. FR ABS with Hoosier. More details if you want to email me. But it will basically boil down to what friction materil I had available to me a tthe time. Technology has once again improved since then...

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Dave: Few things to remember...

 

I had never been to /Driven Putnam before that event.

Putnam is VERY narrow.

There were like 62 cars on that little track.

I ran him down and could have had him, but didn't want to jeapordize his regional championship. I had nothing to gain and had to respect that he had a LOT to lose...

 

Removing ABS will just force more cost with trick pedal assemblies and master cylinders. We'll get there, but why struggle with all those costs. Who does that benefit?

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Robin's $ 0.02

 

Race ABS is an advantage, no one that has it wants to be the guy that gets it taken away by saying so!

 

Suggestions;

1. Drop abs in AI (hopefully the GM guys will return) I have simply pulled the fuse on 2 mustangs and the world did not come to an end.

2. Cheap spec tire (a long lasting tire is a cheap tire)

3. Multi year plan. I think we need to know where the class is heading. Don’t bump the P/W ratio, not everyone can get there, and that will cause people to leave.

4. Trans Price. I didn’t even know this was an issue and don’t believe it is. Everyone can buy any trans ratios they want so why limit the use of any sycro box.

 

If Jay Andrews and TJ both bring out their old obsolete crappy cars for a full season the rest of us will be chasing them, we will have to find something else to complain about. Yes, Dean has put an ass kicking on the rest of us for a few years now (max car, max driver). If we take the car building (abs) & money racing (hoosiers) out of the equation then it’s just our ability to set up our car and drive it against the other guys ability to do the same.

 

The class allows a lot to be modified, maybe too much but in the end 4 tires of the same size touch the ground. The P/W ratio makes the cars close on the straights. Let’s not totally reinvent for the new stuff or totally disregard for the old stuff.

 

We have a good starting point, no wholesale changes or new classes required. Some effort on all of our parts to maximize our cars and some leveling of the field for all makes is all we need.

 

The worst thing we have done in AI is talk bad about it. There are no long term new guys we scared them off. The new guys are flash in the pan guys, 1 or 2 seasons then off to whatever with Dean or someone that can take them there. This series was built on the idea that you could modify a car and race it and if skilled enough you may win a few.

 

“Minor changes”…..lets go race.

 

Robin

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I was talking with WC Mustang driver at Road Atl and he mentioned he upgraded his ABS from 500S unit to 500C unit since the car's performance was so much greater than original 500S trim that the 500S ABS unit couldn't always 'keep up' and there sometimes was a brief stiff pedal (pedal of death he called it) under heavy braking. So, point being, it seems these guys are actively using system however I don't know to what extent or to what advantage - if it wasn't an advantage, seems like they wouldnt be upgrading..

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Dean, as I believe I've become the post child for removing FR ABS, I would like to respond to most of what you said, but I don't think it would be of any vaule. I will say, that your point of view on all of the topics you listed, is one of a very accomplished professional driver giving his point of view of an amatuer series. Just to say, it is a very different perspective. Only a couple racers view the series as a business opportunity. Most of us are equally passionate about racing and winning, but its not how we earn a living. Most of us don't gain clients at the track. .

One quick direct response. A stock ABS is about not locking up tires. A race is system is entirely different. I won't attempt to explain, as I'm not an engineer, but the facts are numerous. To suggest the race unit is not in advantage is just wrong and inaccurate. If the consern is not locking up tires, then keep the stock (show room) system legal, and there's no need to use the FR unit. I know dozens of good, fast racers that don't lock up tires.

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Guys,

 

Please understand that I realize that ABS has its advantages, but it seems like too many people think it's the tuning of the controller that is doing it all. It's not. The main benefit of the FR ABS systems is that it raises the threshold before the ABS unit activates. It accounts for a grippier tire. It also removes some error states that occur with race tires and high line pressures. When we ran the stock ABS on our older 2003-04 cars, we never had an issue. I don't know the differences between the previous generation ABS systems and the new, but I know that the new stuff doesn't adapt well to racing conditions (I think it is because the new stuff does ALL the proportioning electronically and the older stuff still relied on a prop valve for proportioning). If you think you want ABS, use an older Cobra ABS. It is SIMPLE to wire. I would suggest using 99-04 Cobra ABS module because it was a 4-channel system fo rthe IRS and seemed to work better for racing. That is what is in other cars that stop really well.

 

Robin... You CAN'T just unplug the ABS (okay, you physically can). Though YOU may be able to back a car into a corner and still come out on the other side, not all of us are that talented. Seriously. 50/50 brake distribution without the ABS system controlling bias is a very bad thing and has lead to many a crash. I do NOT suggest doing that.

 

Also understand that I race in NASA because it's fun. There are also a lot of talented guys to run with. I enjoy the relationships in AI. I know most of you think I'm some well-to-do pro racer. Stop by and see the reality. I have no wife watching my racing budget, no kids, and a cracker-box home. I spend my money and time on racing, not much else.

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Let’s not make our Bug-Eyed Sprites and Midgets less competitive; let’s just crap on anything that comes in that is better.

 

Having spent some time around the SCCA that is REALLY funny.

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Gotta' say, this has me drooling

 

6.1.1 Track Width & Wheelbase

- Set one track width rule, 76"

-I don't care if it costs more or less, but complaining will stop.

-The S197 Mustang will be faster so we will need to add another 100# to those cars...

 

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Everyone that is concerned about ABS must not realize that it isnt fast to be on the ABS. The braking is best just before it. And if you looked at the data from the races like someone suggested it would show maybe one or two abs bumps for the whole race , its not like any of the fast guys are using it in every corner, it doesnt work that way. I think taking away a safety net is DUMB, its for that pucker moment when your brain isnt smart enough to let the brake pedal up a bit to unlock the wheel. Some people may be awesome enough to do it but most arent. My car has had manual brakes and no abs and now i have abs and the car isnt a ton faster than it was before. And for the record you can still lock em up I proved that at Road America its not a perfect system.

 

As always, if you dont like the rules play elsewhere and yes your car will fit somewhere else. it may not win there but you can race there and winning doesnt matter since its just a plastic trophy right???? yea im lookin at you! People are gonna spend whatever they want no matter what the rules are, look at SPEC miata its a spec class but the cars range from 5k to 30k or higher yet its the same rule set.

 

No matter what the rules are we are gonna race and have fun! So Todd, and the powers that be, do your thing and Ill see ya when the season starts!

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Everyone that is concerned about ABS must not realize that it isnt fast to be on the ABS. The braking is best just before it. And if you looked at the data from the races like someone suggested it would show maybe one or two abs bumps for the whole race , its not like any of the fast guys are using it in every corner, it doesnt work that way. I think taking away a safety net is DUMB, its for that pucker moment when your brain isnt smart enough to let the brake pedal up a bit to unlock the wheel. Some people may be awesome enough to do it but most arent. My car has had manual brakes and no abs and now i have abs and the car isnt a ton faster than it was before. And for the record you can still lock em up I proved that at Road America its not a perfect system.

 

As always, if you dont like the rules play elsewhere and yes your car will fit somewhere else. it may not win there but you can race there and winning doesnt matter since its just a plastic trophy right???? yea im lookin at you! People are gonna spend whatever they want no matter what the rules are, look at SPEC miata its a spec class but the cars range from 5k to 30k or higher yet its the same rule set.

 

No matter what the rules are we are gonna race and have fun! So Todd, and the powers that be, do your thing and Ill see ya when the season starts!

 

I agree that the ABS system does not make the average Joe much, if any faster. Improved driving skills, aero and track knowledge are the things that make you faster.

 

Are the S-197 cars faster than the previous generation SN-95 vehicles? Yes, as they should be. Chassis, suspension, engine and drivetrain technology advances over the decades and it's unfair to penalize technology. Thankfully we don't have to drive '50's or '60's technology racing vehicles. I'm sure it's fun for the vintage guys but they sure as hell wouldn't cut the proverbial mustard in AI today.

 

My .02 cents.

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Everyone that is concerned about ABS must not realize that it isnt fast to be on the ABS. The braking is best just before it. And if you looked at the data from the races like someone suggested it would show maybe one or two abs bumps for the whole race , its not like any of the fast guys are using it in every corner, it doesnt work that way. I think taking away a safety net is DUMB, its for that pucker moment when your brain isnt smart enough to let the brake pedal up a bit to unlock the wheel. Some people may be awesome enough to do it but most arent. My car has had manual brakes and no abs and now i have abs and the car isnt a ton faster than it was before. And for the record you can still lock em up I proved that at Road America its not a perfect system.

 

As always, if you dont like the rules play elsewhere and yes your car will fit somewhere else. it may not win there but you can race there and winning doesnt matter since its just a plastic trophy right???? yea im lookin at you! People are gonna spend whatever they want no matter what the rules are, look at SPEC miata its a spec class but the cars range from 5k to 30k or higher yet its the same rule set.

 

No matter what the rules are we are gonna race and have fun! So Todd, and the powers that be, do your thing and Ill see ya when the season starts!

 

Just curious, which system do you have? Stock GT or one of the race systems, apparently there are more then one.

They don't just save your tires, the race system can save your ass from losing control, and prevent you from losing time for a small mistake. If you can drive just 1/10 harder into a corner because you know that an ABS is going to save you, then you have 1/10 of an advantage , multiplied by each heavy braking zone. As you said, its a sfety net, which is an advantage to those who have it or have acces to it, not everyone does .

 

FYI - Many race series do not have any type of ABS, let along one desiged specifically for racing. They manage to get it done.

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Again, it seems to come down to the have's and have not's...mostly based on differences region to region. If there isn't a NATIONAL rules set that successfully governs all regions, makes sense and keeps cars coming to the series at a reasonable cost (read, new guys buy the older cars to get their feet wet) to enter, this series will continue to be " the turd in the punch bowl." There are somewhere in the neighborhood of 20 AI prepped or near AI prepped cars for sale in the US for less than the price of a CMC car or spec miata, and aren't selling. Why? Because GRASSROOTS racing is becoming too expensive due to the economy and an influx of former BIG teams going to a cheaper venue which gives the APPEARANCE that you must spend $70 to $100k to get into racing Mustangs or camaros to be competitive. You don't have to, but the newbie doesn't know that and thinks they have to write a check for a new Rehagen car if they want to compete. That is a BAD perception. If the price tag is set that high, and the older cars are viewed as "thrown away", the money is going to go to ST, or HC or Spec X. There are only so many of us knuckle draggers willing to spend money to road race mustangs and camaros. Many of which are heading to CMC....

 

In other NASA series, to keep "the new stuff" from hurting the class, the "new stuff" was told to meet the rules. for some reason in AI, someone has fallen in love with Ford Racing and the image of the new Mustang and that FR catalog of parts and has allowed the rules to chase that car in it's advancements. This has left a VERY sour taste in the mouths of the people who built this series for the last 6 or 7 years. I'm not talking about the directors. I am talking about the Grassroots racers who spent the money and built the cars that made AI sexxy enough for the likes of Dean and the bigger money to come play in the last two years.

 

Fundamentally, what has changed? New leader. New cars and more expensive parts. Bigger money getting spent and the ability to write a large check for a nearly legal AI car delivered to your door (yes, I said NEARLY LEGAL). All of which have had their effects on what AI was...and IMHO should still be. A grassroots, driver's series for tinkerers who wanted more Jazz from a Pony car than what CMC could offer. A middle of the road between CMC and AIX if you will. The rules were great because of what you could do, but didn't do, because the cost associated was "not worth it". Then Pat built his car, and then more "big money" players started flowing in. The rules needed reigning in at the end of 2008, but instead, they have gone the other direction. Not creep to just allow a certain new car to race and keep up...but creep that has allowed that chassis to surpass EVERYTHING that was/is racing in the class. Call it a GIANT leap for a single chassis, while leaving all the remaining types of cars a huge gap to catch up to. too much new technology and not enough experience to implement it or keep it in check. Instead, rules changes were made on the fly with not much thought of how it would affect the class.

 

There is so much turmoil within the ranks of AI, all of it public, (much nastier stuff behind the scenes), that if the class survives as anything other than "Spec S197", it will be a miracle. That formula already failed as Mustang Challenge. Why? Because the influx of money was short lived and couldn't survive the long haul. The future of AI should look more like what it did in 2007 than what it MIGHT look like in 2014. We can only "throw away" so many former cars before current and past AI racers end up in CMC.

 

I think we will see many more "outlaw" classes in each region so that they can race what they want and start having fun again. Again, if this series is going to survive, it must remain viable for ALL of it's competitors, not just the fortunate few like the rules have crept to. If there is an option to spend less money to go to another series with less BS, it will be taken. Go back to what worked. Simpler series, simpler rules with simpler parts that are enforceable, include EVERYONE and keep the costs low. There is your formula for success. It already worked, no need to re-invent AI. Personally, I think the two class solution will work. Have AI-1 running under rules set 2007.1, then the new class can do whatever they want. Everyone is happy, the "silly season" posts are no longer necessary and we move on.

 

Rules set 2007.1 please. RA1 or BFG is acceptable.

 

M&M

 

No kittens were killed during the creation of this post.

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i dont want to fight, but in this economy race cars are very hard to sell. period.

i have an enduro co driver that has two spec miatas. these cars run upfront and win races.

he wants to sell one. $9k. its been for sale for a year. last time i checked spec miata

is as popular as ever and inexpensive.

 

mustang challenge failed because you were required to run a serielized factory fr500S.

as opposed to grand am and world challenge where you can build a car to specs, the mustang

challenge series required that you buy a car from them. that kept to cost of those cars

way too high. that series basically moved en masse to world challenge as the GTS class and its

very popular.

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ABS: ABS is a safety net, not a hammock. Guys who rely on ABS to stop their cars every lap crash. ABS is not perfect. It F’s up once in a while too. It’s the driver’s responsibility to read the track conditions and brake appropriately. It doesn’t matter if you have ABS or not if you do stupid stuff.

 

...

 

ABS is really a benefit when some wobble head chops you in a corner and you instinctively jump on the brakes way too hard. Without ABS, you’re going to impound, filling out paperwork, and getting DQ’d… You’re also going to flat spot more tires and spend even more money on Tires (especially Toyos). ABS SAVES COST! There, I said it. Suck it!

 

...

 

Seriously though, I’m all about better competition, but if we are going to make all the cars equal, we need to do something about eh body contact rule. It’s WAY to harsh for real racers who understand that a little contact is going to happen. Malicious attacks are one thing, but if the two individuals involved in the incident say they are fine with what happened on the racetrack then the officials need to leave it at that. It’s not rape if we both consented to it….

 

That's why ABS is a huge benefit. Those without have to drive knowing you don't have that safety net to prevent you from being a weapon or turning expensive rubber into cheap smoke. It is possible. I'm going on 3 years without flat spotting a tire to the point where you can see or feel it.

 

I also don't agree with the body contact. With as much maintenance as these cars require, I don't want to add more body work then I already do that's self inflicted. This isn't NASCAR and I don't want to have to move someone or worry about someone moving me. Not sure how many other cars came back from Nationals without a donut or scuff, but mine did. If we get to the point where body contact is commonly allowed, NASA better invest in security guards to break up the "Saturday night at the dirt track" fist fights.

 

PS- M&M nailed it a couple posts up.

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"PS- M&M nailed it a couple posts up.

I agree. I'm pretty sure he summed up everything I've been attempting to convey. Well said.

 

Seems very strange to continue to make rule concessions for a car that continues to dominate. Most classes do it the other way around. I like the part about the romance with Ford Racing. I heard that its just casual dating , nothing serious, yet....

 

Damn you TJ, I bit my tongue earlier, now you got me going.

Leaving the rules in place that were altered to allow Grand Am cars and others like it into AI, including the bulletin weeks for Nationals is fine, but the contact rule needs some tweaking. Sadly, I wouldn't be surprised if it was addressed, look at the track record.

No big deal, just need you guys to change the CCR......... thats not arrrogant.

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I don't think we're going to get the CCR changed regarding contact. How it's addressed by your race director may vary from region to region. How it's addressed at Nationals is a bit harsh, but I know they are trying to hold up the letter of the CCR.

 

Posted as a racer, not a director:

 

Getting screwed with a DQ during a Nationals qual race for a side-to-side bump is a bit too steep. I'm on the side of allowing more leniency regarding casual contact - lots of situations are race incidents and shouldn't be automatically met with a DQ. Some rubbing is racing, taking someone out or being a bonehead is a different story. Helping someone make the right decision, well...

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I dont think people get the abs thing. If putting it on your car suddenly gives you the balls to go deeper in the corner with no fear there is something wrong with your head. And if you think braking as late as humanly possible makes you the fastest guy out there you also have something wrong with your head. Its simple, its for safety period. Not having it doesnt make you more manly than those of us that do have it. And it also doesnt mean we are only faster because we do have it, because im sure people are out there with it that bring up the rear every race. TJ is fast without it and im sure others are too. And as far as flat spotting goes, I flatted a tire at RA and I have ABS....... it doesnt turn a hack into Sabastien Vettel (Schumacher would be pissed if he saw this)

 

and the love affair with ford is great for the series, and other manufacturers should follow (im lookin at you GM)! is there another manufacturer sending money to winners in AI?????

 

Serious question. Dont the Chevy's in GA have abs??? If so im thinkin that means its out there if ya really want it. Maybe they dont but I was thinking they did. Pretty sure when I looked at them they even had adjustable abs nob right there on the steering wheel.

 

This series is never going to go backwards, I dont know why some of you keep pushing for that, other than money and I get it but racing aint cheap no matter which way you slice it. American Sedan ring a bell to anyone??? NO??? oh thats cause they didnt evolve with the times and no one races it anymore! We dont want that now do we? No matter what happens with the rules people will be pissed and feel like someone else has the advantage and then it happens all over again next year!

 

sarcasm time.... 2012 AI Rules: 1. only legal cars are the first model year of american muscle for whichever flavor you savor. No mods except a cage. END OF RULE BOOK. yep that should fix everything!

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I love these posts.

It's lock Todd pull the pin drop and run... haha

 

Two Realities:

 

- S197 Cars are not yet proven to be faster, no really. Don't believe me look at Nationals times at Mid-Ohio a few years ago compared to now. 1.5 seconds about quicker. Hoosiers worth about 1.5-2 seconds. Mark and Jay's cars ran 1:35's on toyo's and they were fox bodies. Are the new brakes much better, yes (bigger rotors mostly), car turns in much better, can't plant butt at all vs my Sn95 and is way heavier. Just my opinion and I love my new car but still not convinced of this massive advantage thing as I did just fine vs. them in my old car.

 

- ABS is not a huge difference. My car runs the stock mustang GT abs unit so I don't have the "killer" box but I think the amazing braking is due to the 14inch meat monger rotors and pads. Now you can left foot brake more safely and the new car is harder to trail brake to me.

 

All being said get 5 top cars on track in top AI trim of different setups and swap drivers and compare and end the debate and drama.

 

Personally AI rules have been very very steady for years and only evolved with new model cars and factory based race parts. Been fairly consistent to me. Reality is in no form of racing does it say cheap 30 year old cars are expected to run up front and we don't want to evolve with new technology. Are class is the closest I have ever seen to that with mulitple generation cars.

 

Personally I am all for AI with some small penality weight points etc.. vs creating two classes as that just thins field.

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Splitting AI is a bad idea. We need car counts and that will crush that plan. There are so many ways to equalize the cars. I think that AI should just make the jump to using Traqmate solely. This way you can monitor each top car during the race and use all the data to start tweaking the rules to fix any issues. The Traqmate will show if these new Boss cars have an advantage in accel, cornering or braking. After we have sufficient data then tweaks are made. easy. It also makes it easier to see if the driver is making the hot lap or the car is.

 

Once again, ABS should be preferrably gone or secondarily penalized. This should be a drivers series. Why are you guys so attached to your ABS? Good luck competing in ST2 against Vette and Porsche aero with your brick of a mustang. Oh yeah, you also might like buying a new set of race slicks every weekend like the top ST2 guy does out here (so I have heard).

 

Btw, we have very tight racing out here with Foxes, SN95s and a National Champ in a 197. Given the 197 doesnt have the new Boss engine or the tranny (which may or may not need an "adjustment") or the ABS but the chassis itself does not appear to have an advantage on the west coast. Ryan, driving a Fox and Ross driving the 197 have had many an epic battle.

 

Corey, your idea on traqmate is great but how does it correct for density altitude and ram air? Cars in TX will lose 20hp in 105 degree heat than they will in 40 degree air, and the dynojet corrects for that with the air station. I suppose as long as everyone is within a margin of error on the same acceleration graph, that's fine...but then figuring in all the correction factor modifications seems it would be a nightmare to track. Some regions aren't so lucky to have that mid 70's climate like you guys on the west coast....not to mention, those of us with effective ram air can't tune for it on a stationary dyno...but more of a guess. Like the idea, just need more thought through it to feel warm and fuzzy.

 

I am still learning with Traqmate so I cant say if there are any factors you can mod for air density. The whole premise of using Traqmate is just being able to compare several cars performance on track in the race. The top cars should be very similar in performance. On a hot day, all the cars should be somewhat equally down on power right so you could theoretically lower everyones output by X. Or on the other side of the coin, you allow drivers to tune a car for more power on a hot day. As long as the driver doesnt bust his allowable traqmate "performance factor" he would be legal. Either way would be cool. Its all about being able to view the data from each car and compare them. This will nearly eliminate cheating. Also, If we were running traqmates consistently and looking at the data, we probably wouldnt be arguing about the race ABS because we could see if it was or wasnt an advantage.

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