Rules Silly Season- Closed!

[tacovini]

Good to catch up on my late nite reading...

 

Soooo...(tongue firmly in cheek), in a nutshell what I'm hearing the crowd say is:

 

1) create another series and divide the competition into smaller groups.

 

2) eliminate vehicle technological advances and bring back 1998.

 

3) shut the door on any aftermarket companies involvement (see #2) and for god-sake, make sure the OEM factory types ignore our series...(before the other 2 OEM factories take notice!)

 

4) Relax the body contact rules, because if we all agree to hit each other, that should be OK

 

5) Replace Todd...because he is the source of all evil and everything will go the way you want it once he is gone.

 

Did I miss anything?

 

[tacovini]

In all seriousness, guys (& "Misty")...some good points and good counter points. All of which are being mulled about. I expect to actively engage further with the regional series directors in the coming weeks and start nailing things down.

 

I do think that the accusation of my "love affair with Ford" is more a product of them being the prettiest girl at the dance right now than anything else. Let's face it, the Camaro went out of production for a number of years and then bankruptcy kind of stalled GM's (and Chrysler) technology development for a few years.

 

When we were "AI grassroots garage racers" we DREAMED of the series being recognized by Ford, Chevy & Dodge. A magazine ad or a Ford/Chevy parts catalog AI feature picture was always a goal. The masses wondered "Why oh Why do we not get national sponsorships or big company recognition!?!?!?" Best we could do was get the aftermarket guys like Griggs, Maximum and Global West, etc to recognize and boost the series. Today, 1 of the 3 auto manufacturers is very active in racing...American Iron Racing. GM is still a few years behind, but coming. Heck, we got a Big 3 contingency program!!! Yet, some suggest that Ford Racing not be here. Tsk...Tsk.

 

I joked with someone today that when the economy was good we must have all looked like factory drivers in 1995 with our <5 year old cars with limited production "Cobra" engines. I moved to Texas in 2001 and everyone was retrofitting ABS on their track cars. Today, cars can be had right off the showroom floor with all the power/stuff we all wanted. (Even V6's as someone mentioned!) How soon we forget our past, but more importantly, 3-5 years from now...how soon all of that technology (Ford & GM) will be readily available. If we snuff it now from our rules, we'll be behind in the outyears. So we learn how to live with it now....

 

Robin hit the nail on the head (as he always does) when he said something to the effect of "The most damage to the series is not in the evolution of cars or minor rules changes, it is the bashing we do of the series and of our fellow competitors." Let's try to avoid broad generalizations based upon 1 or 2 drivers...or 1 or 2 regions. Gotta think big picture. Not every region looks like the National Championship field...and not every S197 racer's name is Dean Martin (thank Gawd).

 

So to expand on my Post #1 here...we ARE after parity among older and newer cars. We WANT heritage AI cars to run with newer cars. No one is arguing that the newer cars aren't better. (ex. the TJ factor and Tommy factor) As such, things like ABS, weight penalties or other things ARE on the table to try and equal things out. I will say that contrary to what my dear friend Glenn believes, AI is considering a more case by case evaluation of each car platform as Grand Am, World Challenge and CMC currently do. I have always felt that the "all for one and one for all" approach in AI can have a tendency to allow certain cars to gain an advantage. In all my years as a CMC director, we've addressed platforms on a "need" basis. We've already done some of that platform parity in AIX, and we'll need to do more in AI.

 

We've got the Texas regional finale' this weekend and so I won't be able to read up, however, look for some exciting updates in the coming weeks as we all sit at the table and hash things out!

(Remember...this is about FUN!)

[Jim P.]

5) Replace Todd...because he is the source of all evil and everything will go the way you want it once he is gone.

[nape]

(Remember...this is about FUN!)

 

Why do you think I stir the pot? How else do you get an 18 page silly season thread?

[Racer91m]

Todd,

Thanks for what appears to have been a compliment. Unless that Thank Gawd was becasue I'm such a pain in the ass.

 

Everyone else:

 

Ok, I will take most of the blame for screwing up the series by coming in. Sorry. it looked like a really great place to race. I'm starting to feel a little unwelcome. That was not my intention.

 

If you missed it in a different post, I am NOT planning to run in AI at Nationals next year (1% chance I will). I am going to try to build an ST1 Mustang that can go out and beat the crap out of the Vipers and Vettes. If it rains again next year, I don't think that will be difficult since I beat every ST1 car out there this year with an under powered or overweight (however you want to look at it) ST2 car. I actually had the overall lead, but it dried up and that SU Prototype car got back by me. I was goign to take a stab at him when it started to drizzle again, but I think I would have hit him, even though he did block me. Good fun. Love the rain. It was funny to read "Pray For Rain" on the back of an STI as I passed it. Sucka! Thanks again to Brett Mars for letting me drive his car.

 

However.... With all this BS talk, I'm thinking about finding myself a nice Fox Body car (will a 2001 chassis count as Fox Body??) and come out to play. It WILL have ABS, but I will use the old junk so nobody can complain (well, someone will, but I trust someone else will slap them for me). Man, I'm getting myself spooled up over this. Here's what I'm thinking off the top of my head....

2001 Mustang GT

Ford Racing crate engine

Gearbox from a NASCAR car (some $2,500 junk box)

Dual A-Arm front suspension

2004 Cobra IRS (I know, no body mods or subframe mods)

Brembo 14" Front Brakes

Brembo 13" Rear Brakes

18" Wheels

Tiger Racing Hood / Splitter

G-Stream Wing

Heck, I have most of this stuff already...

Would this type of car meet the rules that you guys envision? It sounds like it is exactly what you're talking about...

 

Back to work. Now I'll have to work til 10pm since I just spent an hour reading and writing on this thread. Damn why do I let myself get caught up in it...

[kbrew8991]

for what its worth Dean, from someone spectating over here, it just seems like its just one or two people that are bent out of shape really. And they don't seem bent out of shape about you personally, just your equipment so I wouldn't say they want you to feel unwelcome at all.

 

A debate about the rules going foward, what should change and what shouldn't, is always going to be messy - about like making sausage. Some people just can't handle seeing it and would be better off putting in their two cents on the front end, turning away from "the sausage being made", and come back when it's done.

 

back to watching, right after I make some fresh popcorn

[D Algozine]

Dean, No one blames you. Your not the only one doing very well in the new car. Obviously, you are doing the best in the new car, but there are others. If you built that car you have spec'd ,you would likely be as fast. I've said this to others, the reason for reeling in the new car, particularly the FR ABS, is not becuase of you. Your data and accomblishments should be throw out. You throw off the curve. High and low get thrown out.

Look at any race in any region or Nationals, where there were a group of highly competitive racers and I'm confident that the if any of those competitive guys were in Boss spec'd type cars, they were ahead of the other competitve guys who weren't. Coincidence, likely not. Your the last guy that needs rule concessions, just as the S197 is the last car that needs any help, but it gets breaks, regardless. My point is, STOP, go back to when nothing was altered for the S197. THE CAR NEEDS NOTHING. Ford built a great car. Really, all most of us are asking is just get rid of FR ABS. If it's really not helping anyone, (which is BS) then leaving Factory RACE parts out of AI should be of no consern to anyone, especially those who are using it. Why would anyone fight to keep something in, that really wasn't a performance advantage? So, for better or worse, it's not about slowing you down. Its not about killing the new car, it's really not about anit-technology (as some would like to think). Its just leave the proprietary, single platform, factory race stuff out of AI. If GM or Dodge builts a similiar race system, I still think it has no business in AI. Start chasing factory or high end race stuff and watch the cars vanish, even faster. Remember........ racers class, small aftermarket involvement, parity.....

[robbodleimages]

why would anyone fight to keep something in if it wasnt an advantage?

i'd have to buy new brakes(13"), 3 sets of new wheels(17"), a new transmission,

i'd have to change the brake system for no abs to manual from computer with

the proper proportioning valve and master cylinders and all.

 

its not a good market for selling stuff now days, so the legal stuff that would have to

be replaced would not do a lot to defray the cost of becoming legal again.

 

price out what all that would cost. its not cheap.

[rpoz27]

why would anyone fight to keep something in if it wasnt an advantage?

i'd have to buy new brakes(13"), 3 sets of new wheels(17"), a new transmission,

i'd have to change the brake system for no abs to manual from computer with

the proper proportioning valve and master cylinders and all.

 

its not a good market for selling stuff now days, so the legal stuff that would have to

be replaced would not do a lot to defray the cost of becoming legal again.

 

price out what all that would cost. its not cheap.

 

conversely, to make my sn99 equal to your car requires the same list, just larger numbers...and costs...change "legal" to competitive. ...see our point now?

 

4th gen camaro owners have no such luck.

[D Algozine]

When we were "AI grassroots garage racers" we DREAMED of the series being recognized by Ford, Chevy & Dodge. A magazine ad or a Ford/Chevy parts catalog AI feature picture was always a goal. The masses wondered "Why oh Why do we not get national sponsorships or big company recognition!?!?!?" Best we could do was get the aftermarket guys like Griggs, Maximum and Global West, etc to recognize and boost the series. Today, 1 of the 3 auto manufacturers is very active in racing...American Iron Racing. GM is still a few years behind, but coming. Heck, we got a Big 3 contingency program!!! Yet, some suggest that Ford Racing not be here. Tsk...Tsk.

 

(Remember...this is about FUN!)

 

I had a three paragraph response, but I'll hold it for now.

This statement above says it all......Most of us still are "Grassroots AI racers". We are not looking for fame, fortune or notoriety, were not interested in Ford, GM or Dodge recongnition. We have all seen what happens when they get involved. Is this a goal of AI ???

 

(Remember...this is about FUN!)

 

I think most want great racing, with great guys/gals. Who cares, who's watching?

 

We are fine with Griggs, MM, Steeda, Global west and others. Big three contingency, when has that been a goal.

Who really cares if we are recognized naionaly.

 

This is what I've asked from the beginning. What are the "new" AI goals. Get them printed and posted right away. I can stop trying to have input, if I have no intentions of staying. (I know some of are saying, good riddence)

 

When did AI stirve to become a profession series? Just asking, I didn't know..

[robbodleimages]

 

conversely, to make my sn99 equal to your car requires the same list, just larger numbers...and costs...change "legal" to competitive. ...see our point now?

 

4th gen camaro owners have no such luck.

 

oh...i understand. i was answering dave's question. i got my car because it was legal.

if it became illegal, rather than spend all that money for AI, i would race where the car

could be raced as is.

 

i am fairly sure that i am not the only one that would do that. its all a balancing act for nasa.

[Glenn]

conversely, to make my sn99 equal to your car requires the same list, just larger numbers...and costs...change "legal" to competitive. ...see our point now?

 

4th gen camaro owners have no such luck.

 

Is this Matt or Misty? If it is Misty..... didn't take you long to own Matt's car once you guys got hitched.

[rpoz27]

conversely, to make my sn99 equal to your car requires the same list, just larger numbers...and costs...change "legal" to competitive. ...see our point now?

 

4th gen camaro owners have no such luck.

 

Is this Matt or Misty? If it is Misty..... didn't take you long to own Matt's car once you guys got hitched.

 

You know me...what's mine is mine and what's his is mine! He just does all the wrenching and 90% of the driving.

[UBR]

Here's what I'm thinking off the top of my head....

Want some help?

 

Get Weber to come back to the fold. Talk Jay into bringing his Fox out to play. And I'll enjoy the show as you blow by me in our Fox.

 

j

[sundialracing]

Todd,

 

 

Good fun. Love the rain. It was funny to read "Pray For Rain" on the back of an STI as I passed it. Sucka!

 

Remember that dude that came over and told us what great car control he had in the rain and now that he was racing a AWD how he would basically be unstoppable in the wet?? It was pretty funny how he never came back over after you turned a rain lap 16 seconds faster than him!!!

[nape]

Gearbox from a NASCAR car (some $2,500 junk box)

 

Make sure it's got synchros. The last "NASCAR" box with synchros was in the 80s. You're better off looking for a 10 year old ARCA box. Good luck finding one, I've been looking for another close ratio one for two years.

[svttim]

why would anyone fight to keep something in if it wasnt an advantage?

i'd have to buy new brakes(13"), 3 sets of new wheels(17"), a new transmission,

i'd have to change the brake system for no abs to manual from computer with

the proper proportioning valve and master cylinders and all.

 

its not a good market for selling stuff now days, so the legal stuff that would have to

be replaced would not do a lot to defray the cost of becoming legal again.

 

price out what all that would cost. its not cheap.

 

conversely, to make my sn99 equal to your car requires the same list, just larger numbers...and costs...change "legal" to competitive. ...see our point now?

 

 

 

 

4th gen camaro owners have no such luck.

 

 

So, you expect no changes that might cost you something to be current?

[99cobra2881]

Anyone ever look at the SCCA American Sedan rules?

 

16" wheels

 

12" brakes

 

Carb'd engines only

 

I raced with SCCA this year in ITE, which was the ONLY place my '00 mustang could race under SCCA rules.

 

I couldn't race in SCCA AS because my fuel injected car has 17" wheels, 13" brakes. I didnt want to take what I felt was SUPERIOR parts off my car to meet class rules. The same scenario is playing out here right now.

 

Don't exclude the new cars and their advancements, that seems strangely SCCA-like, plus that's the easy way out.

 

The new cars HAD to have 14" brakes and 18" wheels and then they had to have Race ABS. Fine. The 05+ mustang got their rule changes but nothing was given to the older cars, they were just expected to keep up.

 

Do the work and figure out how to make the AI ruleset even across the board, old to new. If the older cars need concessions to be competitive so be it!

[Cheyne]

Anyone ever look at the SCCA American Sedan rules?

 

16" wheels

 

12" brakes

 

Carb'd engines only

 

I raced with SCCA this year in ITE, which was the ONLY place my '00 mustang could race under SCCA rules.

 

I couldn't race in SCCA AS because my fuel injected car has 17" wheels, 13" brakes. I didnt want to take what I felt was SUPERIOR parts off my car to meet class rules. The same scenario is playing out here right now.

 

Don't exclude the new cars and their advancements, that seems strangely SCCA-like, plus that's the easy way out.

 

The new cars HAD to have 14" brakes and 18" wheels and then they had to have Race ABS. Fine. The 05+ mustang got their rule changes but nothing was given to the older cars, they were just expected to keep up.

 

Do the work and figure out how to make the AI ruleset even across the board, old to new. If the older cars need concessions to be competitive so be it!

 

Actually you could have race in AS with your car as a restricted prep car. Your car would have to meet the spec of restricted prop, but the 1999-2002 Mustang is included. The cars in restricted prep are built to the Touring rules. A friend of mine is running his Caddy CTS-V in AS as a restricted prep car.

 

Cheyne

[99cobra2881]

Anyone ever look at the SCCA American Sedan rules?

 

16" wheels

 

12" brakes

 

Carb'd engines only

 

I raced with SCCA this year in ITE, which was the ONLY place my '00 mustang could race under SCCA rules.

 

I couldn't race in SCCA AS because my fuel injected car has 17" wheels, 13" brakes. I didnt want to take what I felt was SUPERIOR parts off my car to meet class rules. The same scenario is playing out here right now.

 

Don't exclude the new cars and their advancements, that seems strangely SCCA-like, plus that's the easy way out.

 

The new cars HAD to have 14" brakes and 18" wheels and then they had to have Race ABS. Fine. The 05+ mustang got their rule changes but nothing was given to the older cars, they were just expected to keep up.

 

Do the work and figure out how to make the AI ruleset even across the board, old to new. If the older cars need concessions to be competitive so be it!

 

Actually you could have race in AS with your car as a restricted prep car. Your car would have to meet the spec of restricted prop, but the 1999-2002 Mustang is included. The cars in restricted prep are built to the Touring rules. A friend of mine is running his Caddy CTS-V in AS as a restricted prep car.

 

Cheyne

 

Well that's awesome but could I have gone to Nationals as a restricted prep car?

 

The point of my post was that by limiting the class now, AI has effectively put itself on track to being a class thats seemingly outdated to future potential racers. In saying that the class also has to be appealing to guys in cars other than the newest and best Detroit can come up with. Maybe its impossible to add parity to AI, but I'll post here hoping that's not true.

[sundialracing]

Anyone ever look at the SCCA American Sedan rules?

 

16" wheels

 

12" brakes

 

Carb'd engines only

 

I raced with SCCA this year in ITE, which was the ONLY place my '00 mustang could race under SCCA rules.

 

I couldn't race in SCCA AS because my fuel injected car has 17" wheels, 13" brakes. I didnt want to take what I felt was SUPERIOR parts off my car to meet class rules. The same scenario is playing out here right now.

 

Don't exclude the new cars and their advancements, that seems strangely SCCA-like, plus that's the easy way out.

 

The new cars HAD to have 14" brakes and 18" wheels and then they had to have Race ABS. Fine. The 05+ mustang got their rule changes but nothing was given to the older cars, they were just expected to keep up.

 

Do the work and figure out how to make the AI ruleset even across the board, old to new. If the older cars need concessions to be competitive so be it!

 

Actually you could have race in AS with your car as a restricted prep car. Your car would have to meet the spec of restricted prop, but the 1999-2002 Mustang is included. The cars in restricted prep are built to the Touring rules. A friend of mine is running his Caddy CTS-V in AS as a restricted prep car.

 

Cheyne

 

Well that's awesome but could I have gone to Nationals as a restricted prep car?

 

The point of my post was that by limiting the class now, AI has effectively put itself on track to being a class thats seemingly outdated to future potential racers. In saying that the class also has to be appealing to guys in cars other than the newest and best Detroit can come up with. Maybe its impossible to add parity to AI, but I'll post here hoping that's not true.

 

You could have ran the Runoffs but, restricted prep AS cars will never be competitive.

[b_tone]

OK, so after reading the entire trainwreck of a thread I see the following:

 

1 - Todd C. is the devil for unknown reasons

 

2 - Dean Martin (whom I call a friend of 10 years) is also the devil for building a competitive car, having gobs of talent, doing bunches of testing and for being fast.

 

3 - ABS is an issue for the guys that don't have it.

 

4a - The new cars need a higher HP:WT ratio (ex - 11:1 hp) -to add parity for the older cars

4b - The new cars need a higher TQ:WT ratio (ex - 10.5:1hp) -to add parity for the older cars

 

5 - Splitting the class is a dumb dumb idea

 

6 - Choosing an inexpensive & long lasting tire will help all racers currently running AI.

 

So that being the case:

A - give the S197's a weight penalty

B - Give cars with ABS a weight penalty, regardless of year/make/model

C - Make Dean start from the back of the field regardless of qualifying - only kidding....actually you should start from pit lane.

D - Burn Todd at the stake

E - Improve the car counts nation wide by having a steady ruleset where any given car can win on any given weekend. This includes applying different rules for different chassis/years/components.

 

It seems to me, and I may be way off base here but E is the real goal that needs to be given to the rules guys. We all know that the guys making the rules are in a bad spot, they need to make everyone happy (that is not going to happen, ask me about approved frame notches for an IRS one year and illegal the next) and keep the class growing.

 

We need more racing and less bitching. I am all for weight penalties for winning until the field is equalized but my biggest issue is the tire rule.

 

I want a tire that lasts, have a marginal drop off in performance (to keep everyone from having stickers every weekend to be competitive) an a rule-set that doesn't change year to year.

 

Give me all the things in the sentence above and i'll figure out how to make an older car competitive and i'll be happy.

[Grizlbits]

Holy crap. I agree with Tone again. Pretty much every sentence. It is going to be pretty funny when Dean kicks all the S197's butts with his 2001 car (Mustang or Firebird) without the weight penalty and maybe without ABS. Be careful what you wish for; talent can often trump technology.

[ac427cobra]

I agree with Griz. Dean will kick everybody's butt no matter what he's driving!

[D Algozine]

Holy crap. I agree with Tone again. Pretty much every sentence. It is going to be pretty funny when Dean kicks all the S197's butts with his 2001 car (Mustang or Firebird) without the weight penalty and maybe without ABS. Be careful what you wish for; talent can often trump technology.

 

I like what Tone said, also. But where has ANYONE suggested that Dean should be dealt differently then any other AI racer? I suggest just that, everyone treated exactly equal, including the different platforms.