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jason

Pie in the sky rule change requests - 2012

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jason

Is it time to start asking?

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jimbow

?Leave it alone - maybe?

 

Just update with the new cars that have been classed this year?

 

 

Well you could make non-stock brakes 0 points

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kbrew8991

good street tires are too high at +2

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Cobra4B

295 A6s should be a -10 point tire.

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drivinhardz06

I wouldn't change much, but here's my take on 2 things:

 

a ** car is screwed with respect to tires anyway, so let's ignore that.

 

That leaves a "X" car and a "X *" car. Revising the tire points so that instead of 13, the C91/A6 is 12, and keep the spread between them the same (9 pt for R6, etc).

 

As it is, a * car can't even run it's class tire size in the top tier compound, and this would allow any * car to be basically bone stock (+ free mods) if they chose that tire.

 

Also adjustable end links +0 pts. You aren't gaining any performance using them, it's just a chassis set up tool (getting the bar pre-load out of the equation).

 

just my .02

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Vinny

I too would like to see aftermarket endlinks a free mod...I can't keep the stock endlinks together on my car, they've seperated on track....car gets pretty loose with no front bar attached

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kbrew8991

+ another for free swaybar endlinks - the real performance comes from a change in the swaybar itself

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jason

My real request is to end the first lap point by requirement.

 

Either you are ready to pass/be passed at any time, anywhere on track from the drop of the green, or you belong in DE3. It really just causes confusion and hesitation, which just turns into a cluster.

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Vinny

I imagine thats a region rule you guys have, I've never heard of that.

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kbrew8991

its in the ruleset and applies to every region

 

I'm not a fan of blanket statement rules like that. There are some that it makes sense to standardize across all regions, but, there are some that I feel it would be better to leave in the hands of the local folks to use their discrection with thier group sizes & makeup, tracks, etc to have a bit more room to work so they can provide the best experience possible for their participants.

 

Just my $0.01

Edited by Guest

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jason
its in the ruleset and applies to every region

And Nationals.

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TurboShortBus
+ another for free swaybar endlinks - the real performance comes from a change in the swaybar itself

Or from completely removing/disconnecting an end link, which reduces the sway bar rate to zero. How should this be noted in the rules, if an OEM sway bar is used but one end is disconnected? A PT driver was dinged for this at the Championships last month during a random inspection.

 

Mark

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Cobra4B
I wouldn't change much, but here's my take on 2 things:

 

a ** car is screwed with respect to tires anyway, so let's ignore that.

 

That leaves a "X" car and a "X *" car. Revising the tire points so that instead of 13, the C91/A6 is 12, and keep the spread between them the same (9 pt for R6, etc).

 

As it is, a * car can't even run it's class tire size in the top tier compound, and this would allow any * car to be basically bone stock (+ free mods) if they chose that tire.

 

Also adjustable end links +0 pts. You aren't gaining any performance using them, it's just a chassis set up tool (getting the bar pre-load out of the equation).

 

just my .02

Good post.

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kbrew8991

Free Mod E5 - Sway Bar Endlinks. You may increase the strength and rigidity of swaybar endlinks as compared to OEM to add reliability, and/or you may add adjustability to change preload. Decreasing strength or otherwise disconnecting the OEM swaybar(s) is +2 under Points Mod E7.

 

I'd also be in favor of adding "Spherical bearing attachments may also be substituted" as the next-to-last sentence but I can see how some may not want to go there and instead only allow people to beef up and/or change the metal parts of the endlinks and leave the "warts" of how the bar is actually attached to the body & suspension.

 

Lets poke some holes in that so we can write a good rule to submit for this

Edited by Guest

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obzezzed350
+ another for free swaybar endlinks - the real performance comes from a change in the swaybar itself

Or from completely removing/disconnecting an end link, which reduces the sway bar rate to zero. How should this be noted in the rules, if an OEM sway bar is used but one end is disconnected? A PT driver was dinged for this at the Championships last month during a random inspection.

 

Mark

 

What happens if they "break" during a race?

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kbrew8991

It might suck, but you might have to treat it just like coming in a couple pounds under weight. You might've been over the minimum when you crossed the S/F line and thus been over the entire race, but when it comes time to measure and observe you're either legal at that point or not. So the swaybar is either attached properly at impound and was thus properly attached throughout the race or it is not is how I assume they're looking at it.

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TurboShortBus

I would love to make an "aftermarket end link adapter mounting bracket" that attaches to the OEM sway bar either further rearward or further forward of the OEM attachment point (or further inboard/outboard on the OEM control arm), so that I can change its effective rate. The sway bar itself would be OEM, but the mounting bracket...nah, it's just an adapter, nothing to see here...

 

Mark

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kbrew8991

How is an attachment bracket on the suspension or body a swaybar endlink? You're really stretching - +2 points, thus a DQ. You're outta here!

 

If we really need to we can specify that the OEM attachment points on either end of said freebie endlink cannot be altered.

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obzezzed350
It might suck, but you might have to treat it just like coming in a couple pounds under weight. You might've been over the minimum when you crossed the S/F line and thus been over the entire race, but when it comes time to measure and observe you're either legal at that point or not. So the swaybar is either attached properly at impound and was thus properly attached throughout the race or it is not is how I assume they're looking at it.

 

Is that the rule?..I know these kind of examples have come up before but no official wording. I do agree with you, but nonetheless..

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TurboShortBus
How is an attachment bracket on the suspension or body a swaybar endlink? You're really stretching - +2 points, thus a DQ. You're outta here!

I'm playing devil's advocate here, but look at how the front sway bar end links on a Fox or SN95 Mustang are constructed; some sort of a 90* adapter or bracket will be needed on the bar and on the A-arm in order to install end links with spherical bearings. "Oh, but all I did was install the MoFaster end link kit, and it came with that bracket thingy. I didn't change the OEM sway bar, though. Those mounting holes spaced about 3/4" apart? Those are for manufacturing tolerances in the chassis. Yeah, that's it..."

 

Mark

 

Here you go (top bushing, washer, and nut are missing):

Sway-Bar-Links1.jpg

 

Clearer diagram:

sway_links2.gif

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drivinhardz06

sounds good ken. bar brackets and OEM mounting for both end link ends (bar and chassis) must remain the same.

 

I guess I see adjustable end links as "maximizing what's there from the factory" in terms of taking bar pre load out during corner weighting/ballasting. which is kinda a lot of the intent of the PT/TT rules - max'ing what the factory gives you (stiffer bushings, no CHANGE in geometry, just trying to maximize deflection and OEM geometry) camber changes within the OEM pieces/parts, etc. think of it as B&B'ing your chassis.

 

obviously different sway bars is totally changing roll stiffness, etc. but an OEM sway bar is gonna have the same rate/performance effect on the car if the end link is adjustable, or factory. I suppose if you REALLY varied the length of them, you could tweak some roll stiffness, so maybe the adjust. ones have to be within a +/- length of the OEM to be +0

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kbrew8991

So lets go back and look at V1 of this new free mod.

 

As written:

Free Mod E5 - Sway Bar Endlinks. You may increase the strength and rigidity of swaybar endlinks as compared to OEM to add reliability, and/or you may add adjustability to change preload. Decreasing strength or otherwise disconnecting the OEM swaybar(s) is +2 under Points Mod E7.

 

And instead of adding my preferred 2nd part (letting you put sphericals in there if you want) we move the opposite direction from that and strictly specify "The OEM attachment points and method may not be altered without taking Points Mod E7" as the last sentence instead.

 

Would you then feel like this new free mod ONLY allows one to beef up the middle section and/or add in some adjustability but still stick people with the warts of their OEM arrangement unless they take the points under PM #E7?

Edited by Guest

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TurboShortBus
It might suck, but you might have to treat it just like coming in a couple pounds under weight. You might've been over the minimum when you crossed the S/F line and thus been over the entire race, but when it comes time to measure and observe you're either legal at that point or not. So the swaybar is either attached properly at impound and was thus properly attached throughout the race or it is not is how I assume they're looking at it.

 

Is that the rule?..I know these kind of examples have come up before but no official wording. I do agree with you, but nonetheless..

Tough but unfortunate huevos, I say. Back in the day, NASCAR drivers had plenty of parts on their cars that were designed to break away or fail with a very light tap or just during normal use (heavier bumpers, weight bars, etc.). "Oh, my car was legal before the race, but when I got into Jimmy Ray Boudreaux's fender, it knocked off both 50 lb bumpers and the 50 lb weight bar shot out the side of the car in turn 1...that's why I'm 150 lbs light." It wasn't long before the officials called shenanigans on that...

 

Also, at the end of the race, it would be tough to provide proof that the end link (or whatever part "breaks") was in good working condition before the start of the race.

 

Mark

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TurboShortBus

Let's not stop until we have more pages than the S2000 hardtop thread. GO!

 

Mark

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drivinhardz06

I run these style with my non OEM bars, and they are nearly exactly like OEM save for the adjustable center section. No spherical stuff. I would think as long as you can get an end link that's OEM style at the ends (they make them for a ton of stuff) then spherical stuff really isn't needed anyway?

 

http://www.powergridinc.com/bmw.asp

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