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Pie in the sky rule change requests - 2012


jason

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Was your particular vehicle, in its base trim, available with a normal automatic transmission [1. Full auto (torque converter, PRND43 type.)], with the step/tiptronic type [2. Tiptronic/Steptronic auto (torque converter, PRND +/- type.)] as an option?

 

Mark

 

You beat me to it Mark. I think the answer is no. We will see what the car is.

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How about a few points for skinny front tires? I'm trying to think of a logic that would apply to rear tires and not front tires when it comes to grip. 315's vs 275's is advantageous whether on the front or the back of the car. Maybe not directly comparable as it's not to the powered wheels, but somewhat in any case regarding handling and overall grip.

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How about a few points for skinny front tires? I'm trying to think of a logic that would apply to rear tires and not front tires when it comes to grip. 315's vs 275's is advantageous whether on the front or the back of the car. Maybe not directly comparable as it's not to the powered wheels, but somewhat in any case regarding handling and overall grip.

 

We tried that a few years back. He did not buy the average width argument.

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How about a few points for skinny front tires? I'm trying to think of a logic that would apply to rear tires and not front tires when it comes to grip. 315's vs 275's is advantageous whether on the front or the back of the car. Maybe not directly comparable as it's not to the powered wheels, but somewhat in any case regarding handling and overall grip.

 

We tried that a few years back. He did not buy the average width argument.

 

That's not cool, oh well, I'll keep asking every year until we can find out why.

 

 

I like your idea of adding the sheet though. How about taking that a step further and making portions of competitor classification sheets public information? HP, weight, tires, section point totals and adjusted hp/weight all on a single sheet?

I already have; for the past 3 seasons, all of the Florida TT and PT classification forms have been posted in a public directory on Google Documents, so that all competitors can review each others' forms at any time, day or night. Being in a smaller region, I have the luxury of only dealing with about 70 sets of forms, rather than 100+, as other regions have.

 

The development of a national database (and online classing) for TT has been ongoing for a while, but it's not quite there yet. But, in the short-term, it's fairly easy to have all drivers submit their forms in .pdf format and post them to Google Documents or another free service.

 

Mark

 

I really like this idea (for the SE region), maybe just hp and weight posted on an excel sheet so tuning secrets could be preserved (if that's what people want to preserve). Though I personally would be fine with posting the whole dyno sheet. In light of the at least one record holder we have in the SE that was not compliant (and openly so), I think it's time to start cracking down. It would be much more effective for competitors to police each other if they had something to go by.

 

Especially since the SE has to be the biggest TT region in the country. 10 TTU cars registered for December Road Atlanta. That's more than Nationals.

 

As Mark mentions above, sticking people in TTR has a way of making them get what they need submitted.

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Jeff has been very diligent about people getting their paperwork submitted properly and promptly. I have seen DQ's and TTR re-classing issued to those who test the system.

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I'm not saying he hasn't, but saying to use that as a requirement to get people to submit their information in a way that would make it easy for him to add it to a database for competitor accountability as was mentioned before. Converting docs to PDF is ultra simple but I know some people act like it's pulling teeth to get a dyno sheet out of them.

 

There is a dyno in braselton right behind the BBS facility though, so maybe something could be worked out with them where you didn't even have to bring a dyno to the site. It's literally less than one minute from the track. That could be another option.

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I pushed for this a year ago and trying it again for 2012. I reckon I am still the only bloke in NASA (nationwide possibly) to compete in NASATT with a Steptronic. Medical condition.

In Summary:

 

Those competing with cars equipped with Full auto or Tiptronic/Steptronic auto should not take +2 points under D2.

 

Thank you for reading.

submit it via email to Greg. I also submitted it in my batch of 7 RCRs as we've got a couple people in TX that were very unhappy with the amount of points thier OEM option E9X M3 transmissions were charged (10-13 iirc) and that we can either separate out some car listings (regular trans, neato trans) or add a line item in the drivetrain section that is only a couple points for these OEM option flappy-paddle gearboxes when run as-delivered.

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I'm not saying he hasn't, but saying to use that as a requirement to get people to submit their information in a way that would make it easy for him to add it to a database for competitor accountability as was mentioned before. Converting docs to PDF is ultra simple but I know some people act like it's pulling teeth to get a dyno sheet out of them.

 

There is a dyno in braselton right behind the BBS facility though, so maybe something could be worked out with them where you didn't even have to bring a dyno to the site. It's literally less than one minute from the track. That could be another option.

 

You don't provide me with the correct and complete paperwork I DQ. If you do not make meetings I DQ. I do not chase down, I do not bargain and I do not care why.

 

The paperwork is there for anyone to check. I have no issue with openness and crosschecking.

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I'm not saying he hasn't, but saying to use that as a requirement to get people to submit their information in a way that would make it easy for him to add it to a database for competitor accountability as was mentioned before. Converting docs to PDF is ultra simple but I know some people act like it's pulling teeth to get a dyno sheet out of them.

 

There is a dyno in braselton right behind the BBS facility though, so maybe something could be worked out with them where you didn't even have to bring a dyno to the site. It's literally less than one minute from the track. That could be another option.

 

You don't provide me with the correct and complete paperwork I DQ. If you do not make meetings I DQ. I do not chase down, I do not bargain and I do not care why.

 

The paperwork is there for anyone to check. I have no issue with openness and crosschecking.

 

Oh, really? I had no idea that we could check the paperwork. That's great.

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Greg mentioned to me the he leaves it up to the regional directors whether or not the classification sheets are published. Anyone that is interested in having this in Midwest or Great Lakes please contact Joe or Geff and specifically request to make the sheets available online.

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so I just read through all 69 pages of rules suggestions. I'm so totally new to all this I hesitate to through my 2 cents in here, but this one has been rattling around my head all day.

 

Was there ever a concrete suggestion to the reprogrammable ECM's? I saw the issue brought up, discussed, but never really answered.

 

I think this is because there are really 3 different issues here, and none of the suggested answers really worked for each issue.

 

Issue 1, a few cars have re-programable ECM from the factory. As the rules stand now this gives them a significant performance advantage in that others have to spend points to install an aftermarket computer to optimize the tune.

 

Issue 2, some cars receive far more benefit from a new program than others (forced induction, among others) Therefore the points need to be different based on how much benefit they will get.

 

issue 3. There is no easy way to check if a computer that has a stock reprogrammable ecm has in fact been reprogrammed.

 

 

One suggestion was to make remapping a 0 point mod, but while that fixes issues 1 and 3, it's a no go because of issue 2, some will benefit way more from this freeby than others. This should be obvious since right now a NA car is +3 where as forced induction is a whopping 10.

 

So if the two numbers above are deemed fair (+3 for NA, +10 for FI) then what about one of these solutions.

 

1. Make a list of cars with stock reprogrammable computers. Force them to take the points as if they had done a reprogram. ( I Imagine I'm about to get shot as i just suggested everybody get bumped up)

 

2. I don't know if this is feasible, but what does it take to reflash one of these things? Make a list of cars that can be reprogrammed in the stock form, and have them reflashed prior to, or during a race day, or spot checked by resetting them to stock.

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If you dyno class then the ECM becomes part of the new base classing and is 0 points. I suspect most people with programable ECMs are being dyno classed.

 

Lets say you don't gain much HP but you get a far better torque curve with a ECM. You also added a full exhaust, underdrive pulleys, cold air intake. You could potentially get a dyno reclass the same as your base classing, have better torque curve and not take points for any of those mods

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Issues #1 and #2 can and I feel should be addressed by adjusting those car's base classing (and thus special reclasses as well) to account for the gains they can get from the freebie ECU mods.

 

Doesn't add to the free mod list

Doesn't add any extra complexity to the ruleset

 

Levels the playing field which is the ultimate goal.

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K brew

That is similar in effect to forcing them to take the points, but I feel your idea is inferior in execution to just making them take the points. If +3 for na and +10 for fi are fair numbers reclassing (at least my limited understanding of it) is going to be very unfair. Aren't the stars based on 7 points? The problem is for a na car you either leave him alone, or add a star and effectively rob him of 4 points, same thing with a fi car, both adjustments come in at right at half ( or one and a half) stars.

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You can adjust the weight AND the asterix when adjusting a base class. A couple points worth of weight either way works, or asterix, or both. Also it wouldn't be a one-size-fits-all solution, each car can be looked at individually instead of getting a blanket-statement type adjustment which may be too harsh for some cars, not harsh enough for others.

 

My $0.01, others may not agree. That's fine

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Also when new cars come out there may or may not be ways of re-tuning the ECU - but someone may crack the ECU and then tuning may become available - changes to the base classing will be more fair than a +10 for FI cars or +3 for NA cars. NASA gathers a lot of info throughout the year and can see what people are doing to make power and can compair the info and decide what cars should be adjusted.

 

This is almost moot since we have already decided to ban Mustangs, Corvettes, Miatas and I think all turbo and AWD cars.

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It would be a nightmare trying to alter the base class and weight for every car out there that has oem ecu tuning. There a a LOT of cars out there. And as brought up, some cars that don't have tuning now, might get the ability halfway through the middle of next season. The simplest solution is to just make ecu tuning a free modification to everyone, and that levels the playing field, and requires no tedious monitoring of what cars can have tuning. FI cars can take a few extra points since they have much more to gain than NA cars.

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Pretty sure power gain potential via free mods and such is considered when base classing any vehicle. So the ECU thing isn't really any extra work afaik. Good "Greg" question I guess. Hell this may not even be a change, it could already be going on....

 

Just say NO to more "free" mods

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Mark, Ken:

 

Thanks for the reply.

 

Last Sunday, I spoke to Greg and yep no revisions. John Matthews was there. John drove my car on the track and reckons that there is no way the steptronic/tiptronic transmission is comparable to a DCT/SMG type.

 

I have a BMW E46 325i. And to answer Mark's question, unfortunately, it's not std. But in understanding on non-std equipment: any optional equipment is supposed to enhance the driving experiences or performance. For a steptronic/tiptronic, it may enhance the driving experience but I still don't see how it can improve performance.

 

Under two circumstances, Greg will waive the +6 pts (+3 for altered forward gears, +3 for paddle-shifters).

 

1. Retrofit a manual transmission and drive what real racers do.

2. I am paralyzed. Think Alex Zanardi, whom I actually have the pleasure of meeting in person. See here. That's me on the right. Taken when he autographed my memorabilia.

 

I looked at my legs the last few days with a chainsaw in my hand. Had a good talk with both of them and decided they would stay. I love them too much.

 

So a manual transmission might be it. Or whatever else works.

 

Was your particular vehicle, in its base trim, available with a normal automatic transmission [1. Full auto (torque converter, PRND43 type.)], with the step/tiptronic type [2. Tiptronic/Steptronic auto (torque converter, PRND +/- type.)] as an option?

 

Mark

 

 

I pushed for this a year ago and trying it again for 2012. I reckon I am still the only bloke in NASA (nationwide possibly) to compete in NASATT with a Steptronic. Medical condition.

In Summary:

 

Those competing with cars equipped with Full auto or Tiptronic/Steptronic auto should not take +2 points under D2.

 

Thank you for reading.

submit it via email to Greg. I also submitted it in my batch of 7 RCRs as we've got a couple people in TX that were very unhappy with the amount of points thier OEM option E9X M3 transmissions were charged (10-13 iirc) and that we can either separate out some car listings (regular trans, neato trans) or add a line item in the drivetrain section that is only a couple points for these OEM option flappy-paddle gearboxes when run as-delivered.

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Pretty sure power gain potential via free mods and such is considered when base classing any vehicle. So the ECU thing isn't really any extra work afaik. Good "Greg" question I guess. Hell this may not even be a change, it could already be going on....

 

Just say NO to more "free" mods

 

Yeah, Greg would be the guy to ask. I kinda doubt that this is already accounted for - new cars are based classes shortly after they are released, but often ECU tuning isn't figured out for a couple of years. Also, consider that for example, some ap2 s2k have tuning and some don't, but all non club racer ap2 s2k have the same TTC base class and same base weight, so this is one example were it definitely wasn't accounted for.

 

Ken, why say NO to free mods!? Since they are free, obviously they don't cost any extra money!

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This is almost moot since we have already decided to ban Mustangs, Corvettes, Miatas and I think all turbo and AWD cars.

 

Yes. This is my master plan. One day the Sentra will dominate. By rule, money spent, or by process of elimination. It doesn't matter to me!!

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