nape Posted November 15, 2011 Share Posted November 15, 2011 dont mess with texas Or Chicago. Glad I read 'til the end, because I was about to post the same. Before the S197, 80% of AI cars were built, not bought*. *175% of statistics are made up. Just so you know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UBR Posted November 15, 2011 Share Posted November 15, 2011 *175% of statistics are made up. Ha ha... I work with data and stats all day... There's 3 kinds of lies. Lies, Damn lies, and then there's statistics... j Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
svttim Posted November 15, 2011 Share Posted November 15, 2011 if building your own car was a requirement, the car count would be small. Making this statement shows you have no idea who is out there racing....ZERO cars have been bought in TX..they have all been built by owners or shops. Nothing arrived in a Ford racing transporter. You will also find that the people who are most verbal about these issues are the ones BUILDING their own cars. It's basically become the builders vs. the check writers. It's racing. It happens. Just make it easier, cheaper, fair and equal. So, those shops dont charge to build cars? Please send me the address of one of these shops Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rpoz27 Posted November 16, 2011 Share Posted November 16, 2011 So, those shops dont charge to build cars? Please send me the address of one of these shops send me the address where I can put my car on a shaker rig just for fun or get me on the "insider list" for the racing engineers at GM to improve my 1999 Camaro SS abs system for less than $1000. :rolleyes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
svttim Posted November 16, 2011 Share Posted November 16, 2011 So, those shops dont charge to build cars? Please send me the address of one of these shops send me the address where I can put my car on a shaker rig just for fun or get me on the "insider list" for the racing engineers at GM to improve my 1999 Camaro SS abs system for less than $1000. :rolleyes: Sure, as soon as you introduce me to the engineers at Ford. Point being, if you pay a shop to build a car, you dont build it yourself, you are buying it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nape Posted November 16, 2011 Share Posted November 16, 2011 So, those shops dont charge to build cars? Please send me the address of one of these shops Sure, it's called my parent's two-car garage with my own hands, a copy of Chassis Engineering, Engineer to Win, Competition Car Aerodynamics, the internet, and a grasp of high school level physics. I came across the article that introduced me to NASA and AI the other day. Scroll down to the last page and read under the "How Much?" heading at the bottom left: http://www.blainefabrication.com/projects/HotRodmar03.pdf I'm about at that mark after 5 years of racing and R&D. Others? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackbolt9 Posted November 16, 2011 Share Posted November 16, 2011 So, those shops dont charge to build cars? Please send me the address of one of these shops Sure, it's called my parent's two-car garage with my own hands, a copy of Chassis Engineering, Engineer to Win, Competition Car Aerodynamics, the internet, and a grasp of high school level physics. I came across the article that introduced me to NASA and AI the other day. Scroll down to the last page and read under the "How Much?" heading at the bottom left: http://www.blainefabrication.com/projects/HotRodmar03.pdf I'm about at that mark after 5 years of racing and R&D. Others? Good fer u! You want a cookie? How many hours, and at what rate are you figuring into that cost analysis? Other people value their time at more than $0/hr. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
svttim Posted November 16, 2011 Share Posted November 16, 2011 So, those shops dont charge to build cars? Please send me the address of one of these shops Sure, it's called my parent's two-car garage with my own hands, a copy of Chassis Engineering, Engineer to Win, Competition Car Aerodynamics, the internet, and a grasp of high school level physics. I came across the article that introduced me to NASA and AI the other day. Scroll down to the last page and read under the "How Much?" heading at the bottom left: http://www.blainefabrication.com/projects/HotRodmar03.pdf I'm about at that mark after 5 years of racing and R&D. Others? You miss the point again TJ. Yes, you built your own car, but if you built one for me, Id still be paying you to do it (unless your a really reall nice guy) To say having a local shop build a car is not buying one is bunk. Hell, Ford doesnt build any of its race cars, they are farmed out to smaller builders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T&A Racing Posted November 16, 2011 Share Posted November 16, 2011 So, those shops dont charge to build cars? Please send me the address of one of these shops Sure, it's called my parent's two-car garage with my own hands, a copy of Chassis Engineering, Engineer to Win, Competition Car Aerodynamics, the internet, and a grasp of high school level physics. I came across the article that introduced me to NASA and AI the other day. Scroll down to the last page and read under the "How Much?" heading at the bottom left: http://www.blainefabrication.com/projects/HotRodmar03.pdf I'm about at that mark after 5 years of racing and R&D. Others? You miss the point again TJ. Yes, you built your own car, but if you built one for me, Id still be paying you to do it (unless your a really reall nice guy) To say having a local shop build a car is not buying one is bunk. Hell, Ford doesnt build any of its race cars, they are farmed out to smaller builders. I think the point was not who did the work to prep the car, but how it started life to begin with. It was offered up that we needed to change the rules in the past to make it easier for grand am cars to have a second life as an AI car. I think even Deans list shows that generally this is not how an AI car is born, but rather someone takes a production car maybe a wreck or a body in white and bolts parts on to it. If that is the case, the builder can easily choose what parts to bolt back on, so one could easily choose to bolt on manual brakes, bolt on a simple biase set up and avoid the abs issue. The other option is to buy a ready made race car, built with no input from the buyer to a production race spec so that removing things like abs is major issue. I really don't know which one is more prevalent. I do know the few times I have entertained the option to buy a car from well known builders they always ask me what I want. Just trying to help clarify, my s197 has no abs and I don't plan on adding it at this time or any time soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizlbits Posted November 16, 2011 Share Posted November 16, 2011 *175% of statistics are made up. Just so you know. TJ, as I told you a million times, stop exaggerating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
svttim Posted November 16, 2011 Share Posted November 16, 2011 I think the point was not who did the work to prep the car, but how it started life to begin with. It was offered up that we needed to change the rules in the past to make it easier for grand am cars to have a second life as an AI car. I think even Deans list shows that generally this is not how an AI car is born, but rather someone takes a production car maybe a wreck or a body in white and bolts parts on to it. If that is the case, the builder can easily choose what parts to bolt back on, so one could easily choose to bolt on manual brakes, bolt on a simple biase set up and avoid the abs issue. The other option is to buy a ready made race car, built with no input from the buyer to a production race spec so that removing things like abs is major issue. I really don't know which one is more prevalent. I do know the few times I have entertained the option to buy a car from well known builders they always ask me what I want. Just trying to help clarify, my s197 has no abs and I don't plan on adding it at this time or any time soon. Fair question. I know for me, I bought my car as is and made sure it was AI legal. I had some choices but certainly, I was not going to pay to remove ABS that was within the rules Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pantera1889 Posted November 16, 2011 Share Posted November 16, 2011 WHat the hell does any of this have to do with the tire rules for next year??? Thats what this thread was started for ....correct??? Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jim P. Posted November 16, 2011 Members Share Posted November 16, 2011 WHat the hell does any of this have to do with the tire rules for next year??? Thats what this thread was started for ....correct??? Ron Welcome to the AI forums - where if the discussion is NOT about ABS then eventually it will be about ABS... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackbolt9 Posted November 17, 2011 Share Posted November 17, 2011 I think the point was not who did the work to prep the car, but how it started life to begin with. It was offered up that we needed to change the rules in the past to make it easier for grand am cars to have a second life as an AI car. I think even Deans list shows that generally this is not how an AI car is born, but rather someone takes a production car maybe a wreck or a body in white and bolts parts on to it. If that is the case, the builder can easily choose what parts to bolt back on, so one could easily choose to bolt on manual brakes, bolt on a simple biase set up and avoid the abs issue. The other option is to buy a ready made race car, built with no input from the buyer to a production race spec so that removing things like abs is major issue. I really don't know which one is more prevalent. I do know the few times I have entertained the option to buy a car from well known builders they always ask me what I want. Just trying to help clarify, my s197 has no abs and I don't plan on adding it at this time or any time soon. One cannot choose to "easily bolt on" manual brakes to the S197. Easily bolting on means bolting in the stock pedal box, booster and master cylinder. Then bolting in stock lines and calipers. Properly changing to manual brakes at the bare minimum requires a change of master cylinder, calipers, prop valve and hand made lines. It is much cheaper to bolt in the stock pieces than to figure out a new master cylinder/caliper combination and then pay someone to hand make lines everytime. If you were the customer buying a car, would you rather just keep the stock pieces and spend less money, or shell out more money for a new braking system when it isn't needed? And that doesn't even get into reliability issues that arise from small run aftermarket parts vs. high volume OEM quality parts. Is there the option, yes. Is it the most cost effective for the S197, no. Which is why most people want the stock ABS system left in the car. It just so happens that for this same car there is an ABS control module that looks about identical but is tuned for racing conditions which clouds up the issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pantera1889 Posted November 17, 2011 Share Posted November 17, 2011 I think the point was not who did the work to prep the car, but how it started life to begin with. It was offered up that we needed to change the rules in the past to make it easier for grand am cars to have a second life as an AI car. I think even Deans list shows that generally this is not how an AI car is born, but rather someone takes a production car maybe a wreck or a body in white and bolts parts on to it. If that is the case, the builder can easily choose what parts to bolt back on, so one could easily choose to bolt on manual brakes, bolt on a simple biase set up and avoid the abs issue. The other option is to buy a ready made race car, built with no input from the buyer to a production race spec so that removing things like abs is major issue. I really don't know which one is more prevalent. I do know the few times I have entertained the option to buy a car from well known builders they always ask me what I want. Just trying to help clarify, my s197 has no abs and I don't plan on adding it at this time or any time soon. One cannot choose to "easily bolt on" manual brakes to the S197. Easily bolting on means bolting in the stock pedal box, booster and master cylinder. Then bolting in stock lines and calipers. Properly changing to manual brakes at the bare minimum requires a change of master cylinder, calipers, prop valve and hand made lines. It is much cheaper to bolt in the stock pieces than to figure out a new master cylinder/caliper combination and then pay someone to hand make lines everytime. If you were the customer buying a car, would you rather just keep the stock pieces and spend less money, or shell out more money for a new braking system when it isn't needed? And that doesn't even get into reliability issues that arise from small run aftermarket parts vs. high volume OEM quality parts. Is there the option, yes. Is it the most cost effective for the S197, no. Which is why most people want the stock ABS system left in the car. It just so happens that for this same car there is an ABS control module that looks about identical but is tuned for racing conditions which clouds up the issue. . Nobody forced you (or anyone else) to build a S197 car. That was YOUR choice. Again...what does this have to do with the 2012 tire rules??? Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T&A Racing Posted November 17, 2011 Share Posted November 17, 2011 I think the point was not who did the work to prep the car, but how it started life to begin with. It was offered up that we needed to change the rules in the past to make it easier for grand am cars to have a second life as an AI car. I think even Deans list shows that generally this is not how an AI car is born, but rather someone takes a production car maybe a wreck or a body in white and bolts parts on to it. If that is the case, the builder can easily choose what parts to bolt back on, so one could easily choose to bolt on manual brakes, bolt on a simple biase set up and avoid the abs issue. The other option is to buy a ready made race car, built with no input from the buyer to a production race spec so that removing things like abs is major issue. I really don't know which one is more prevalent. I do know the few times I have entertained the option to buy a car from well known builders they always ask me what I want. Just trying to help clarify, my s197 has no abs and I don't plan on adding it at this time or any time soon. One cannot choose to "easily bolt on" manual brakes to the S197. Easily bolting on means bolting in the stock pedal box, booster and master cylinder. Then bolting in stock lines and calipers. Properly changing to manual brakes at the bare minimum requires a change of master cylinder, calipers, prop valve and hand made lines. It is much cheaper to bolt in the stock pieces than to figure out a new master cylinder/caliper combination and then pay someone to hand make lines everytime. If you were the customer buying a car, would you rather just keep the stock pieces and spend less money, or shell out more money for a new braking system when it isn't needed? And that doesn't even get into reliability issues that arise from small run aftermarket parts vs. high volume OEM quality parts. Is there the option, yes. Is it the most cost effective for the S197, no. Which is why most people want the stock ABS system left in the car. It just so happens that for this same car there is an ABS control module that looks about identical but is tuned for racing conditions which clouds up the issue. Well you should know, you make money by buidling them. I only have one, it works fine won nationals in the hands of a qualified driver (not me). I don't think half that stuff was changed, but as with most race car builds most was removed and replaced as part of the build. It may still have the booster. But the point is it is not impossible or a huge deal it is just part of having a race car built and one of the many choices we all make as part of the build. Many right now choose to keep the the abs because it is better, just may have choosen to keep 18's which make our tire budgets bigger if we run toyo's hence what it has to do with this thread. It is all about choices we make, not what really can or can not be done. Which is why this thread is so long. There is no right or wrong just our individual choices and each of us trying to influence the rules to better align with our choices, or prevent the rules from aligning better with others choices. The leaders have a tough job to sort through the facts and pick rules tha best represent the center of which should give equity and parity in the racing if we each optimize our choices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D Algozine Posted November 17, 2011 Share Posted November 17, 2011 WHat the hell does any of this have to do with the tire rules for next year??? Thats what this thread was started for ....correct??? Ron Welcome to the AI forums - where if the discussion is NOT about ABS then eventually it will be about ABS... WELCOME...................Everybody Climb Aboard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jim P. Posted November 17, 2011 Members Share Posted November 17, 2011 LOL! They have me worried, if they cannot keep a topic on track then how can they keep a racecar on track?!?! -Jim http://WildHorsesRacing.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nape Posted November 17, 2011 Share Posted November 17, 2011 Good fer u! You want a cookie? How many hours, and at what rate are you figuring into that cost analysis? Other people value their time at more than $0/hr. Really? From a guy who just said he's a volunteer mechanic? As far as the tire issue, I sure hope it's Toyo. The 18" tires in the crawl space that I won at $350/tire are now worth $275/tire, so, now I stand to lose substantially more money then if I sold them before. Now, I know how all those S197 drivers in the stock market feel. Oops, I meant to stay stock brokers and bankers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbrew8991 Posted November 17, 2011 Share Posted November 17, 2011 2012 CMC rules have been posted and specify the RA1 for what it's worth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nape Posted November 17, 2011 Share Posted November 17, 2011 2012 CMC rules have been posted and specify the RA1 for what it's worth. CMC never wavered from the RA1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
svttim Posted November 17, 2011 Share Posted November 17, 2011 Good fer u! You want a cookie? How many hours, and at what rate are you figuring into that cost analysis? Other people value their time at more than $0/hr. Really? From a guy who just said he's a volunteer mechanic? As far as the tire issue, I sure hope it's Toyo. The 18" tires in the crawl space that I won at $350/tire are now worth $275/tire, so, now I stand to lose substantially more money then if I sold them before. Now, I know how all those S197 drivers in the stock market feel. Oops, I meant to stay stock brokers and bankers. Lets compare paychecks TJ Dont care what tire we are on as long as they are reasonable and reliable Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nape Posted November 17, 2011 Share Posted November 17, 2011 Lets compare paychecks TJ Can we get a yearly earnings/average finishing order list organized? It'll be like a handicap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UBR Posted November 18, 2011 Share Posted November 18, 2011 Can we get a yearly earnings/average finishing order list organized? It'll be like a handicap. You're one of those fancy union electricians. I'm just a nurse. j Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nape Posted November 18, 2011 Share Posted November 18, 2011 Can we get a yearly earnings/average finishing order list organized? It'll be like a handicap. You're one of those fancy union electricians. I'm just a nurse. j I.'m B.roke E.very W.inter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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