D Algozine Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 Just thinking out loud, and wondered how others felt about a NASA's version of the Mustang Challenge. It's been several years of the S197 getting higly developed by Ford Racing with some awesome factory cars and all the R&D that has been completed makes for an impressive road race car. It's obvious NASA (AI) wants to be part of what Ford Racing is offering, despite the fact that by making periodic rules adjustments, they have literally put that car in a class by itself. So, why not make a class just for that car. Boss Spec, New Mustang challenge....what ever you want to call it. Alllow all the lastest that Ford Racing has developed and will develop in the future. FR would be thrilled to show case their newest stuff. Make it easy for the WC and Grand am guys to go back and forth. It's already being done, just at the cost of alienating nearly everyone other platform in the class. My feeling is that AI keeps trying to fit a round peg into a square hole. Make a new hole for it to fit perfectly. S197 cars could still be legal for AI, just under the normal AI rules and not the "new Mustang" tweaked rules. It will eleiminate the nearly impossible task of continually trying to adjust the AI rules to allow the newest FR offerings, and attempt to maintain parity with all of the other platforms. Becasse it hasn't worked and it's only going to get worse as RF develops new stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UBR Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 The idea on paper sounds reasonable. I think the biggest risk is reducing car counts in both classes. It's possible that it would draw more cars back to AI and would be a good level field for those wanting the newest stuff. Not sure how many cars/potential buyers are out there waiting because AI has issues. Also, where would our 75 car fit? It's a S197, but with a pushrod motor, carb, no abs. j Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D Algozine Posted October 17, 2011 Author Share Posted October 17, 2011 The idea on paper sounds reasonable. I think the biggest risk is reducing car counts in both classes. It's possible that it would draw more cars back to AI and would be a good level field for those wanting the newest stuff. Not sure how many cars/potential buyers are out there waiting because AI has issues. Also, where would our 75 car fit? It's a S197, but with a pushrod motor, carb, no abs. j JIm, in my scenario, #75 would be legal in AI. S197 cars could still be legal for AI, just under the normal AI rules and not the "new Mustang" tweaked rules The point is not to put all S197 in thier own class. Really its the FR ABS that pushes that car out, in my opinion.. But a reasonalbe trans price limit makes sense. Plus, AI could then go back to a 17" wheel,if they choose, but not as cridical at the FR ABS. Additional benifit, the new class could run an open tire rule, or Hoosiers as most of the new Mustang car guys are in favor of. It could possibly increase car counts in both classes. It certainly would be an opportunity for those who have left AI recently to come back, and give the grassroots guys the opportunity to be competitive, again. New class may be appealing to those guys running the new updated car, but I can't speak for them. May lure a few more WC and Grand AM guys to make some NASA events, as thier schedule allows. Again, I wouldn't be infavor of refering to a new class as AI2. It really wouldn't be another AI class, becasue the only car that would fit into the class are the new Mustangs, so it just makes sense to call it a Mustang class. No other brand has a mass produced race ABS available. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foster82 Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 Im new around here, and just have been reading everything for a while, but I really like this idea. Ive been building an 89 Mustang for AI for 2 years as money allows. Its finally about finished and I was gonna get to some races to get my license, but after watching nationals and seeing all these rules Im about to strip the car again and go to CMC. Restricting AI to a 17' wheel would help wouldnt it? And instead it just being the mustang challenge or Boss spec class call it something different and allow the BMW's, Camaros, and anything else the runs in the continental tire series. Wouldnt that create 2 healthy classes? Again Im new and prolly have no business joining in this but it just sounds like Dave A has a great idea. Would prolly save alot of people from dropping to cmc or just quiting altogether. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EFisher12 Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 I think its a good idea ... It wont really hinder car counts in my opinion as it is more of a specific class, and the core AI guys will have no real motivation to run here. I own a FR500 (as well as my AIX car) and would love a more dedicated class to run the 500 in where it can be competitive. E Fisher Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sundialracing Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 Sounds awesome as long as we can get some good car counts.. I left SCCA because because of shallow fields.. Why not open it up to include Grand Am GS cars? There is going to be some timing out in the next couple of years... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
svttim Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 I doubt I could be competitive but would give it a shot. Anything to get out of all the snipeing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevor57 Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 Are the existing classes so full that we need more? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robbodleimages Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 its not that. its that some in ai either want the newer ford racing cars out of ai or devolved to fit a previous ai rules set. my guess is that our conversation will have little effect on what nasa wants to do. they want the mustangs running in the ai group. they do not want the mustangs racing in the st2 group because they want that class marketed in a different direction. mustangs there and in ai only confuse the situation. nasa national also wants ai to be strong into the future and that means finding a way to fit the new cars in the with old and the years go by. transition is always hard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWinchester199 Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 Cool idea, there are a ton of cars out there with no place to race and they arent 100,000k either lol. most are around 30 and they are almost new! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Tornado Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 A few thoughts. We can always do a few select weekends and have it be a test class and see what plays out. At some point just do AI like GTS or ST and have two classes. AI Classic - current AI rules with some mod points for cars with ABS if that is proven (yes someone please go and prove these things) to be better. AI-Pro - new cars set to ST2 like level specs and rules so allows multiple cars from WC, Grand Am etc.. to come over easily and race. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tacovini Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 All good ideas, but let's be careful that we don't have "each region create another test class". As a national series, we need to ensure some unity and consistency across the American Iron country. That being said, the regional series/race director has the authority to "set grid as he chooses". If all the S197 cars agree they want to grid up front of the field and all the non-S197 cars grid up behind them for a split start regardless of qual times...have at it!!! You could have a race within a race, but I guarantee that there will be fast Foxes/Camaros into the mid-pack of the S197 class. "Farming looks mighty easy when your plow is a pencil and you're a thousand miles from the corn field." --Dwight D. Eisenhower. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redsnake08 Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 Split start idea could be a good thing... But what is gonna get AI racers motivated to return to nationals in a non s197 mustang???! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdlingle Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 "Farming looks mighty easy when your plow is a pencil and you're a thousand miles from the corn field." --Dwight D. Eisenhower. Nice! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardP Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 "Farming looks mighty easy when your plow is a pencil and you're a thousand miles from the corn field." --Dwight D. Eisenhower. That's an interesting quote to be posted by someone who has never raced in AI... Richard P. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racer91m Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 I've actually been working on this behind the scenes. I know most of you old-school guys don't like the new cars and there are enough of them out there to justify a new "Mustang Challenge" series, but it will not be a NASA supported class. I'll keep you Mustang guys posted if it gets off the ground. It needs factory support (which is difficult to get), but most importantly, it needs a title sponsor. This is the main reason Mustang Challenge failed. They did not find a series sponsor and Ford stopped funding the program. It can work, it just needs the right financial support. If we can get DeSalvo's idea going with outside sponsors, that could lead into a new MC series. I've already started working on the rules package that is VERY similar to AI/ST2 rules. Parity will be easy at this point... Also curious... What rules were tweeked specifically for the Mustangs? I think I missed that. I know there were some un-enforcable rules that got removed, but I don't know of anything that was Mustang-specific. What did I miss? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robbodleimages Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 IIRC * track width extended * 18" wheels * 14" brakes * ABS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rpoz27 Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 Here is a good read. Notice any parallels? http://www.carguydad.com/complete-guide-to-scca-pro-racing-trans-am-series/ Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D Algozine Posted October 19, 2011 Author Share Posted October 19, 2011 IIRC * track width extended * 18" wheels * 14" brakes * ABS Close, heres what I remember: Track width 18" wheels $6k trans -it was to allow Fords close ratio for the new cars FR ABS - Someone could have spend some time and figured out how to check for stock vs Race, but the guys who were capable of determining that, were the same guys lobbying to get the system in. Go figure. I think there was one other item, but I don't remember what it was. 14" Brakes were always legal, they just didn't fit under very many, 17" wheels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nape Posted October 20, 2011 Share Posted October 20, 2011 14" Brakes were always legal, they just didn't fit under very many, 17" wheels. 14" brakes were legalized in 2007, IIRC. When I first looked at AI it was 13" brakes and 17" wheels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D Algozine Posted October 20, 2011 Author Share Posted October 20, 2011 14" Brakes were always legal, they just didn't fit under very many, 17" wheels. 14" brakes were legalized in 2007, IIRC. When I first looked at AI it was 13" brakes and 17" wheels. Never realized that. Wow, if thats the case, then thats another major deal for the heavy S197. I'm guessing, they needed the bigger brakes, because the car couldn't keep up with others in the class I'm sure thats why the change was made. Now remember, if we want to, we can take our current cars that have been legal since day one, that were built to the rules at the time, that we have been adjusting and tweaking to best of our little abilities, and we can make the necessary changes to keep up. We can all run out and spend another $3k on new 14" brakes. Nothing is preventing us. And most, but not all can retrofit some kind of ABS, but only a few can retrofit FR system. Hell its only another $1k, so I've heard. GM cars, just screwed, sorry. We all are free to go buy 2-3 sets of 18" wheels to fit over the bigger brakes. And spend higher costs for tires to fit the new wheels, then bitch about the price later. I'm sure we can spend another $4k to have a close ratio built (greg told us were to go ge them). Track width and wheel base, we're just screwed...... Or just sell your current car for pennies on the dollar and buy or build a new mustang. Besides if you sell all your current stuff and buy a new Mustang, Ford will reward you with contingency money, until they get bored with the series and move on. See it's simple, parity is easy, you just need to spend some time and little money. What the hell are you non Boss/M Challenge/Grand am/WC cars crying about. Go out and make the changes and keep up. Because, AI has to evolve (and in a major hurry) or it will die But be carefull, because, based on the past, the bar will likley continue to go up. So, Stop whining and make it happen. Other guys, who are fourtunate to have a large budget, have gone out and bought the lastest cars. Whats stopping you...?? Or just listen to those guys in the new cars, who are running in front of you, who are telling you non of this $hit matters. Its the driver !! Bitter, I'm not bitter. I'm just pissed that CMC2 came out after I started my new car build. Yah, I have issues, but I'm working on them.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redsnake08 Posted October 20, 2011 Share Posted October 20, 2011 Bitter dave... um NO its the truth! I agree 100% Just hope through all of this that the higher ups make the "right choice for AI" Spec s197 mustang = BORING stangs,camaros,firechickens,gtos all years going at it = F ING Awsome! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rpoz27 Posted October 20, 2011 Share Posted October 20, 2011 Never realized that. Wow, if thats the case, then thats another major deal for the heavy S197. I'm guessing, they needed the bigger brakes, because the car couldn't keep up with others in the class I'm sure thats why the change was made. Now remember, if we want to, we can take our current cars that have been legal since day one, that were built to the rules at the time, that we have been adjusting and tweaking to best of our little abilities, and we can make the necessary changes to keep up. We can all run out and spend another $3k on new 14" brakes. Nothing is preventing us. And most, but not all can retrofit some kind of ABS, but only a few can retrofit FR system. Hell its only another $1k, so I've heard. GM cars, just screwed, sorry. We all are free to go buy 2-3 sets of 18" wheels to fit over the bigger brakes. And spend higher costs for tires to fit the new wheels, then bitch about the price later. I'm sure we can spend another $4k to have a close ratio built (greg told us were to go ge them). Track width and wheel base, we're just screwed...... Or just sell your current car for pennies on the dollar and buy or build a new mustang. Besides if you sell all your current stuff and buy a new Mustang, Ford will reward you with contingency money, until they get bored with the series and move on. See it's simple, parity is easy, you just need to spend some time and little money. What the hell are you non Boss/M Challenge/Grand am/WC cars crying about. Go out and make the changes and keep up. Because, AI has to evolve (and in a major hurry) or it will die But be carefull, because, based on the past, the bar will likley continue to go up. So, Stop whining and make it happen. Other guys, who are fourtunate to have a large budget, have gone out and bought the lastest cars. Whats stopping you...?? Or just listen to those guys in the new cars, who are running in front of you, who are telling you non of this $hit matters. Its the driver !! Bitter, I'm not bitter. I'm just pissed that CMC2 came out after I started my new car build. Yah, I have issues, but I'm working on them.... Dave, are you sure Matt didn't hack your account too? You sound exactly like he did 2 years ago.... just kidding. Take the year off like we did. Worked wonders for us, though this yearly silly ritual has opened some old wounds. Guess our passion for AI has not fully dried up. Look to other series and see how they handle this sort of stuff...you just might see something you like! You do have one nice point about the current "haves" might be complaining they need to buy the 2014 Mustang in 2015 when 19" tires and even better advances come this way. Wait till the ecoboost cars come out and boost controllers have to get monitored and stability control gets legalized because the new cars come with it... Causing Slippery Slope progress does! <--best attempt to speak like Yoda. To quote the forever height challenged Adam Ginsberg...."It is what it is." To quote what Todd has told us for years is "just worry about that which YOU can control".... Well, it's THEIR series...and it's OUR money. Which one can you control? All we did was take his advice... Signing off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
svttim Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 14" Brakes were always legal, they just didn't fit under very many, 17" wheels. 14" brakes were legalized in 2007, IIRC. When I first looked at AI it was 13" brakes and 17" wheels. Never realized that. Wow, if thats the case, then thats another major deal for the heavy S197. I'm guessing, they needed the bigger brakes, because the car couldn't keep up with others in the class I'm sure thats why the change was made. Now remember, if we want to, we can take our current cars that have been legal since day one, that were built to the rules at the time, that we have been adjusting and tweaking to best of our little abilities, and we can make the necessary changes to keep up. We can all run out and spend another $3k on new 14" brakes. Nothing is preventing us. And most, but not all can retrofit some kind of ABS, but only a few can retrofit FR system. Hell its only another $1k, so I've heard. GM cars, just screwed, sorry. We all are free to go buy 2-3 sets of 18" wheels to fit over the bigger brakes. And spend higher costs for tires to fit the new wheels, then bitch about the price later. I'm sure we can spend another $4k to have a close ratio built (greg told us were to go ge them). Track width and wheel base, we're just screwed...... Or just sell your current car for pennies on the dollar and buy or build a new mustang. Besides if you sell all your current stuff and buy a new Mustang, Ford will reward you with contingency money, until they get bored with the series and move on. See it's simple, parity is easy, you just need to spend some time and little money. What the hell are you non Boss/M Challenge/Grand am/WC cars crying about. Go out and make the changes and keep up. Because, AI has to evolve (and in a major hurry) or it will die But be carefull, because, based on the past, the bar will likley continue to go up. So, Stop whining and make it happen. Other guys, who are fourtunate to have a large budget, have gone out and bought the lastest cars. Whats stopping you...?? Or just listen to those guys in the new cars, who are running in front of you, who are telling you non of this $hit matters. Its the driver !! Bitter, I'm not bitter. I'm just pissed that CMC2 came out after I started my new car build. Yah, I have issues, but I'm working on them.... My car was legal from day one, yet, you want me to spend how much to remove 14 in brakes, abs, change the transmission and probably add weight too so I cant compete. Call it what it is, Vintage AI, outlaw anything newer than 2004 and have at it. And maybe Ford will get bored and go away, Funny, obviously, GM and Chrysler were never interested in the first place Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nape Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 And maybe Ford will get bored and go away, Funny, obviously, GM and Chrysler were never interested in the first place Anyone who thinks Ford was interested in AI when they made the parts that keep getting complained about is utterly delusional. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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