New class - Mustang Challenge - NASA version...thoughts

[robbodleimages]

i should have known that.

[RACER-X]

Having had an 04 GTO and the new Camaro on basically the same architecture, yes it is costly for everything. Not difficult to find parts if you know where to look but 3 to 4 times the cost of Mustang parts. Lets also not forget that there are not a lot of GTO's or new Camaros out there, compared to how many Mustangs there are. If I wanted to build a Mustang there are certain parts to buy, a playbook so to speak. Not so with the Camaro. You buy the costly parts but don't get the results you were hoping for so back the the drawing board. There is no playbook, only your checkbook. I also hear that Chevy will be redoing the Camaro on a new platform soon so how many will want to invest in a car that was only produced for a few years in small numbers? I gave up on my GTO over a year ago and got into 944-Spec. For what I had in the GTO I could have built 4, 944-Spec cars. Build it once and your done. Once it's built, it's only mild tweaking if that, from year to year.

 

You will get this kind of problem trying to make old technology perform like the new stuff. The cars and their technology get old. The older cars can't compete with the new ones so what do you do. You could run in PT, CMC or another class. Get weight added to the newer cars but in 5 years how much weight will a new car be penalized? You could sell your old car to someone who's just getting started and buy a new one. You could upgrade everything in your old car to be on par with the new cars. That would be just as expensive as buying a new one and then some of the new bits won't be compatible with the old car and then what...... ?

 

Doesn't the SCCA have a class that when the car hits 6 years in age it can no longer compete in the original class and has to move to a different class? Maybe this is a direction to look in?

 

As much as I love the sound of the thundering V8 and gobs of torque, these are some of the reasons I didn't get into AI.

[thonczarenko]

the 302r is $130k. the 302s is $79k. the difference is that the grand am package includes seam welding, fuel cell, i think there is a bosch ecu that is required by grand am. there is no factory camaro race car. riley builds them and i am only familiar with the gs version of that car. its over $200k.

 

And don't forget the sealed engine that produces loads more power than the 302S engine does.... Grand-Am series winning horse power.

[thonczarenko]

After thinking some more.... I think eventually there would have to be a class for us older Mustangs/Camaros/Firebirds owners. I think somebody mentioned (I get the chills as I type this) "Vintage or Historic" AI.

 

I'm getting old... I mean, me and my car are getting old....

[D Algozine]

After thinking some more.... I think eventually there would have to be a class for us older Mustangs/Camaros/Firebirds owners. I think somebody mentioned (I get the chills as I type this) "Vintage or Historic" AI.

 

I'm getting old... I mean, me and my car are getting old....

 

I don't know the exact numbers, but I'm guessing that about 80%-90% of the current AI cars would fall into your older, vintage class that you mentioned. Seems silly to move 90% out of the current class to make room for the 10%, but then again, that is pretty much was is already happening. Seems strange, doesn't it?

According to Todds statement about a year ago, the average age of current AI cars is 10 years old. We really don't need to keep saying new cars. We are all talking about one car that has been given these rule breaks (again, pun intended). So, it seems pretty simple, either level the playing field or create a new class for the "new" (Boss, Grand Am, WC, Mustang Challenge) car. With a new "Boss spec" class everyone is happy. NASA gets it's premier, marguee new car class in conjunction with Ford Racing. RF gets another class to show case its stuff, and there appears to be racers who want to race the new Mustang, as delivered from FR or other pro shops. You could continue to lure the pro guys and they wouldn't have to make any changes from the pro classes. The current AI guys with budgets that will allow, can build or buy a new cars with the lastest Ford Racing has to offer. They could easily evolve the series to match whatever new stuff comes out. Then AI wouldn't continue to alienate the majority of racers that make up the class. The guys who left the series the last few years, may likely consider to come back. New guys that look at what's happening, who end up going to CMC, may consider AI. Just saying !

 

Personally, I think its all silly to have this much controversey in order to make room for one car, but here we are. I suppose the mission statement for AI does read,

The American Iron Series was created to meet the needs of domestic sedan racers looking for a series specifically tailored to accommodate modified vehicles that are currently relegated to racing in Unlimited or Spec-limited classes. This class is designed to field a large high-profile group of American Musclecars and will unify fields of cars that currently race in other sanctioning organizations. This large field/open modification concept will provide racers and vendors access to a promotional racing venue containing similarly prepared and appearing cars that can run nearly unlimited configurations.

 

Besides most of this was written as the introduction to starting the new AI class several years ago. Currently, its an established class. I've got to think at some point racers started building cars to the class. No I'm sure thats what most of us did.

Also, it's just like anything, it's how you interpret the statement. Or how far your willling to go to accomadate or welcome a particular class of cars. And at what expense of the rest of the class? . I don't see how any class can be everything for everyone, especially with the un-detailed set of rules that AI currently has. In order to be this wide open, not unlike ST, I think a points type system needs to be in place to provide parity. You need to accomadate, wider, longer wheel bases with shorter, various braking systems, upgraded trans gears, wild suspension mods, wild aero mods, and others.

[SNAKBITN]

Al,you are correct it is only about one car but the only reason it is is because GM killed there ponycar line up and Ford started making some of there best products in 01 and after.If GM hadn't killed the Camaro and the TransAm there would be no need in theses discussions,we would all be bitchn about how ALL the new cars are kicking our a$$ and would want to put them in there own class.But AI classes 1,2 and 3 are probably not far away.When GM starts building some racecars like Ford it will probably happen or racers start building there own and showing up to the track.

But until then lets just keep bitchn about it and blame Ford and the abs system and let the Mustang take over the world.It would be a nicer place.

Now should we start talking about politics,I'm sure that would start a $hit storm!

 

Robert

AI old 98 cobra

[sundialracing]

the 302r is $130k. the 302s is $79k. the difference is that the grand am package includes seam welding, fuel cell, i think there is a bosch ecu that is required by grand am. there is no factory camaro race car. riley builds them and i am only familiar with the gs version of that car. its over $200k.

 

And don't forget the sealed engine that produces loads more power than the 302S engine does.... Grand-Am series winning horse power.

 

Both cars have the same motor...

[Tommy55]

I agree with Algozine 100%. I have been racing AI for 6 years. My car is outdated. I would love to be able to build a new Ai car in the 20k range. At this point that would be a total waste. Unfortunatley, the same destiny is headed to CMC. I would love to come back and race AI, but I refuse to spend 80k for a mustang. just my .02

[Red Tornado]

Do some points system if you want but boy folks don't appreciate vs SCCA which outdates cars and model years instantly how good they have it.

 

And I am still not convinced my "killer" boss clone is any quicker than my old 2004 Cobra.

 

And yes someone be a man and go complain to GM as it really is there fault at the end of the day with all this not Ford and Todd.

[D Algozine]

And yes someone be a man and go complain to GM as it really is there fault at the end of the day with all this not Ford and Todd.

 

Chris, I don't understand this statement. Or somehow folks still don't understand the major issue that most of us have, which seems crazy, because the real issue has been listed about a dozen times.

No one blames Ford, we don't blame GM, we don't blame any racers. We just want parity for all AI legal platforms, and believe whatever you want, but we don't have it now.

 

Sorry, I've been pressed to spell it out,....once again...so stop reading if your tired of hearing it

 

If GM had some kick a$$ race ABS for the new Camaro that it was marketing, or if AI legalized the GM ABS from Grand Am, it's still a bad situation. Why should we all chase after these type of systems, what's the point?

We are not as conserned with a stock GT ABS (although personally I think they should all go, but...) Its the huge advantage that the race system provides. Guys who have the race system may or may not be taking full advantage of it, but it is a significant advantage over a stock system and a huge advantage over non ABS cars. Some AI legal cars can not retrofit any ABS and only some can retrofit the FR one. But regardless, the FR system is a pro racing component. It didn't come stock with the production GT's. That is a terrible presedent to allow a pro purpose built race system like this one into AI. Leave the pro stuff for the pro's, they have the dollars to update constantly. They test both at the track and with high end shop equipment. What's next? and When does it end? Simply, it's an unfair andvantage for S197 cars. The agruement that it will fit other Mustangs is just silly. So, everyone who wants to be competitive needs to run out and retrofit, in order to keep up, and those that can't....oh well. The S197 was allowed the 14" brakes, 18" wheels, close ratio trans, race ABS, with out any thought about how that would effect the remaining 90% of cars in the field. If you really don't think any of these items are a performance advantage, then you've either got your head in the sand or you don't understand the physics of race car dynamics. So, the message apparently has been, just go upgrade all your stuff if you want to keep up, but wait.....there could be even more stuff later.

So, as an example, if we all ran out and spent the time and money to buy all the new $hit and everyone figured out how to put the FR abs on all of the cars, what's the point. Everyone just spend thousands of dollars and countless man hours so we could all be equal again. BS, make the cars equal, now. Do some research and testing before changing the rules. Think about how it's going to effect everyone. Do I sound pi$$ed.....No, it's only been about 4 years of this...Why should anyone be upset. It sure has been great for a few select shops.

And we haven't even touched on the advantage in the rain. Does night and day ring a bell with anyone? And adding weight to a car as a penalty for having ABS in the rain has little to no effect on performance.

 

Yes, I supose for now, I will continue to repeat the message, as long as someone still doen't get it.

[T&A Racing]

So Dave just to clarify, you are in favor of the ford abs?

 

 

[UBR]

So Dave just to clarify, you are in favor of the ford abs?

I think Dave is quite fond of the Ford Racing ABS, just not on an AI car...

 

j

[svttim]

Dave

 

Maybe because you mix your message. You talk about the race system (ABS) and how its not a stock system, not available for the street. Then, to mix your message, you talk about 18 inch wheels and 14 inch rotors which ar both available on street cars.

 

So, in summary, you want to outlaw race parts, and oh, wait, some street parts too.

 

Tim

[D Algozine]

Dave

 

Maybe because you mix your message. You talk about the race system (ABS) and how its not a stock system, not available for the street. Then, to mix your message, you talk about 18 inch wheels and 14 inch rotors which ar both available on street cars.

 

So, in summary, you want to outlaw race parts, and oh, wait, some street parts too.

 

Tim

 

Sorry, but I never said that 18" wheels or 14" brakes should be outlawed. I've stated in the past that they are unnecesary. However, I have said that the effect of making them legal should have been considered, along with the other parts, which is true of even the stock ABS. My point has been, IF you allow these parts then a formatt for leveling the field should have been in place prior to making this and other parts legal.

And yes, as Mark and Jim somehow figured out, I'm strongly against the FR ABS in AI, in case that wasn't clear. In my opinion, there is no fair way to offset the advantage of this system with a stock system or non ABS car. A lot of guys seem to think that a pi$$ing match with GM, regarding a racing ABS would somehow be a good thing. Don't see the benifit of relying on factory high end technology for competing at our level. Theres always going to be the next, or more improved piece of equipment. That is the whole point for manufactureres. They need to continuelly update to create sales. So, far it's working, but at what cost? And NO, I'm not talking about never making any rule adjustments or not evolving. But be smart about it. Do your homework. And be as fair as possible to all cars. (there is where we all hold hands and start singing..... )

[thonczarenko]

the 302r is $130k. the 302s is $79k. the difference is that the grand am package includes seam welding, fuel cell, i think there is a bosch ecu that is required by grand am. there is no factory camaro race car. riley builds them and i am only familiar with the gs version of that car. its over $200k.

 

And don't forget the sealed engine that produces loads more power than the 302S engine does.... Grand-Am series winning horse power.

 

Both cars have the same motor...

 

I had outdated info, in 2010 they had a different engine; the Cammer 5.0 (450+HP) for Grand-Am. Impressive to see how the 2011 Boss 302R guys get around the track with the standard issue Boss 302 engine.

[svttim]

A lot of guys seem to think that a pi$$ing match with GM[/bquote]

 

Its not aboput starting anything, its recognizing for years, they made no car and as a result, no progress on the Camaro

[D Algozine]

A lot of guys seem to think that a pi$$ing match with GM[/bquote]

 

Its not aboput starting anything, its recognizing for years, they made no car and as a result, no progress on the Camaro

 

 

So what. Please read my last two long post's again.

Even if GM did keep up there pony car program, how would a Fox & Sn95 Mustangs and 3rd & 4th gen F bodies stack up against them? The same way they are now with a Grand am Mustang. The new Camaro has been out for about 2 years. Several differences in the new Camaro and Mustangs, but the biggest difference is that the Grand Am legal Camaro is not legal in AI, and thats the way it should be. I'm not refering to production cars. My issue is the factory race car parts, and one item in particular.

I was explaining this issue regarding the Grand Am/WC Mustang to a couple of my non racing car friends. As outsiders they don't know the details, but they are familiar enough with our series to know what we're about. They thought it was nuts that any rules were changed to allow a pro car in our series...... Your opinions may vary.

I'm pretty sure I should have quit repeating myself about a week ago, so if you really want to discuss this further, I'd be happy to have an off line discussion. I can email a phone number.

 

david at algozine dot com

[blackbolt9]

Whine...cry...whine...cry...until the squeeky wheel gets greased

 

Let’s go back to carburetors too then. At one point in time guys started playing with fuel injection. Started by putting resistors here and there, tweaking things they knew about until they made more power and now we're up to hand held tuners that you can change fuel maps with.

 

If you're so worried about the FR500 ABS controller figure out a way to make your GM ABS perform equally or better. Or even get a Bosch unit and learn to tweak it yourself since you don't have an OEM helping you with it and it's a stand alone system. Or if you don't want to put in that kind of learning and work, go where you can get it with just a checkbook and be done (FR). Stop crying because progress has been made and rules have been adapted for that change in technology.

 

If ABS wasn't allowed the newer cars would have to completely redo their brake system since it is what controls their brake proportioning. That would keep alot of people from building the newer cars since they don't know how to design a brake system. Or they could spend the time and money to figure it out themselves.

 

Either way, someone is trying to figure out how to make something work on one car or another. Since no-ABS works better for YOU, that's what you are arguing for. That doesn't mean it's necessarily better for others or the series in general.

 

Or maybe we can all go back to the good old days and run cheaper stuff like NASCAR does The point of my NASCAR comment being that if someone wants to go out and spend a bunch of money optimizing a car to the rules they will still be able to outspend other people and have a better car. Doesn't matter what series you run in or which car you go with.

[UBR]

I noticed this is your first post here, so I'll give you a bit of a break. But I have to point out a few issues with you comments.

 

Or even get a Bosch unit and learn to tweak it yourself since you don't have an OEM helping you with it and it's a stand alone system.

This would be great if they had the option. The AI rules state the ABS must be OEM.

 

If ABS wasn't allowed the newer cars would have to completely redo their brake system since it is what controls their brake proportioning. That would keep alot of people from building the newer cars since they don't know how to design a brake system.

A valid comment, but then you say to the GM folks to go out and design their own brake/ABS system. "If you're so worried about the FR500 ABS controller figure out a way to make your GM ABS perform equally or better...if you don't want to put in that kind of learning and work, go where you can get it with just a checkbook and be done (FR).

 

I think you make the point, very well for the GM camp. If restricting Ford Racing ABS will discourage people building new Mustangs, forcing someone to purchase, design, modify, install and program a system not intended for their vehicle will likely discourage anyone from building a non-Mustang.

 

j

[blackbolt9]

This would be great if they had the option. The AI rules state the ABS must be OEM.

 

Yup, my mistake. I was thinking of the Bosch unit in the Grand Am Camaro's and forgot it wasn't an OEM piece.

 

A valid comment, but then you say to the GM folks to go out and design their own brake/ABS system. "If you're so worried about the FR500 ABS controller figure out a way to make your GM ABS perform equally or better...if you don't want to put in that kind of learning and work, go where you can get it with just a checkbook and be done (FR).

 

I think you make the point, very well for the GM camp. If restricting Ford Racing ABS will discourage people building new Mustangs, forcing someone to purchase, design, modify, install and program a system not intended for their vehicle will likely discourage anyone from building a non-Mustang.

 

j

 

I understand that. It's not the Mustang guys' fault that Ford has produced a good "OEM" system that works for race cars though. Should they be penalized and have to do more work just because their manufacturer has come forward and produced a better system right from the showroom floor?

 

The GM guys still have the ability to run an "OEM" system, since I'm pretty sure the Camaros are offered from the factory with OEM ABS. Just because their OEM system doesn't work as well (supposedly) doesn't mean we have to force the Mustangs to revert to old technology that ISN'T even available for their car. Remember ABS IS available on the other cars, it's just not "as good" (supposedly).

 

Or are we just looking to keep things in the stone age and not allow any improvements because technology creep is going to cost some more money? If that's the case we might as well take to vintage racing. At some point you either have to keep up with the times or go old school and stop letting things improve with new technology. At some point they had to allow computer controlled engines even though it was voo doo to the guys racing with carburetors. Now we're at the step of computer controlled brakes, we can either move forward or freeze the cars in time. If you freeze the cars in time you're eventually in the vintage class...

[D Algozine]

Grassroots magazine latest issue, December, page 116, Bosch add with some interesting comments. Just a bit on the pricey side

[svttim]

Grassroots magazine latest issue, December, page 116, Bosch add with some interesting comments. Just a bit on the pricey side

 

Well Dave, Ill back you upf if ya wana use this system!

[UBR]

Grassroots magazine latest issue, December

I say you convince Todd that the Camaro and Firebird were actually manufactured by Bosch. Then the ABS will be "OEM"... Besides, what's $10,800 to a real racer?

 

j

[nape]

Grassroots magazine latest issue, December

I say you convince Todd that the Camaro and Firebird were actually manufactured by Bosch. Then the ABS will be "OEM"... Besides, what's $10,800 to a real racer?

 

j

 

About $4200 short of what I could build another car for...

[D Algozine]

Random thought:

If I'm not mistaken nearly all of the new Mustangs have been built from BIW or Grand am shells. A few more are for sale again. And most are from a few select shops. The explanation for allowing the Grand am/ Boss parts was to easily allow currently built, old pro cars to enter the series. To my knowledge, that has not been the case for nearly all of the new Mustangs. So, just like nearly ever other AI car build, any parts could have been bolted on. I'm assuming the GT parts will in fact bolt onto a shell.

Same goes for the theory of old /existing pro cars trickling into AI. I'm only aware of a couple..... So,by design or accident, IBM, you make the call. Besides, by my math 2011 minus 10 is 2001. Just saying...