New class - Mustang Challenge - NASA version...thoughts

[99cobra2881]

Look at my times from 2010 nationals. I did ok and out braked most except for two pro cars. No GM car finished on the podium any year of nationals.

 

So you admit you could stop faster than all but 2 cars? I know there were alot more than (2) S197 Mustangs at the 2010 nationals. And yet we still have complaints about the ABS systems in them being the uber game changer that keeps the rest of the field behind them

 

Who are you really? Do you even race AI?

 

 

He doesnt race AI but he does crew for Rehagen Racing. Hope that helps.

[D Algozine]

Not my idea to use National podiums as a gauge. I like to use physics and in car data.

 

Really because I've yet to see you post any calculations or data from independent cars that you are comparing to use in your continuous complaining.

 

Ask your boss for the data, I'm sure he can help you out. Or ask NASA to post the results from Nationals. Watch the in car video of various racers at Nationals and compare.

Can we just get over this BS. It's been documented, a purpose built race ABS can without a doubt modulate at threshold better then a human. It also, allows threshold braking better in uneven sufaces, slippery surfaces (rain), off camber, while turning into the apex. Call Ford, FI, NASACAR, Grand Am and any other pro santioning body. Ask any pro race car builder, ask anyone using the system who is skilled enough to take full advantage of it.... the list is endless. Please don't tell me that you want to continue and agrrue otherwise. It's simply a fact. The guys who know this better then anyone are the Ford engineers that desigend it. Some are on this board, some where instrumental in getting it approved, some Ford Engineers race in AI, but then you should know that. Why did they lobby so hard to get it approved? Ask those indiduals why they designed it? Ask Jeff Feit or Mark Wilson, or Dean Martin, I'm sure there are others. What were the parameters, what were the goals, what where the results. I'm sure the lastest version is better then the last? Jeez to you think so.....? Again, if it sucks and doesn't help then losing it, is of no consequence. Can we just talk about how to get back to parity. I may be a loud mouth, but do you realize how silly some of you guys sound trying to agrue that this system really doesn't matter.

[sundialracing]

Kind of a highjack here but,

 

Does anybody know how the brake system is on the Caddy CTS-V? I recall racing against them in T2 and even at 4000# they stopped pretty well..

[blackbolt9]

Look at my times from 2010 nationals. I did ok and out braked most except for two pro cars. No GM car finished on the podium any year of nationals.

 

So you admit you could stop faster than all but 2 cars? I know there were alot more than (2) S197 Mustangs at the 2010 nationals. And yet we still have complaints about the ABS systems in them being the uber game changer that keeps the rest of the field behind them

 

Who are you really? Do you even race AI?

 

I am not a race car driver if that's what you are looking for.

 

I am a volunteer mechanic for Rehagen Racing, as has already been stated. Don't know what that has to do with the discussion though.

[blackbolt9]

Ask your boss for the data, I'm sure he can help you out. Or ask NASA to post the results from Nationals. Watch the in car video of various racers at Nationals and compare.

Can we just get over this BS. It's been documented, a purpose built race ABS can without a doubt modulate at threshold better then a human. It also, allows threshold braking better in uneven sufaces, slippery surfaces (rain), off camber, while turning into the apex. Call Ford, FI, NASACAR, Grand Am and any other pro santioning body. Ask any pro race car builder, ask anyone using the system who is skilled enough to take full advantage of it.... the list is endless. Please don't tell me that you want to continue and agrrue otherwise. It's simply a fact. The guys who know this better then anyone are the Ford engineers that desigend it. Some are on this board, some where instrumental in getting it approved, some Ford Engineers race in AI, but then you should know that. Why did they lobby so hard to get it approved? Ask those indiduals why they designed it? Ask Jeff Feit or Mark Wilson, or Dean Martin, I'm sure there are others. What were the parameters, what were the goals, what where the results. I'm sure the lastest version is better then the last? Jeez to you think so.....? Again, if it sucks and doesn't help then losing it, is of no consequence. Can we just talk about how to get back to parity. I may be a loud mouth, but do you realize how silly some of you guys sound trying to agrue that this system really doesn't matter.

 

Where has there been any documented comparison between the S197 and the other factory systems that are available? I honestly have not seen them. Can I get data from Dean to look at from a S197, sure, probably anytime I want from any of our cars I want. But that doesn't give me anything to compare to. You say you want data and physics involved, well where is a race prepared Camaro with OEM ABS installed to compare to? I'd be all for doing the testing and comparing the data. Haven't seen that done or even proposed. You guys just keep bitching about how it isn't fair, when we haven't even established that GM factory ABS is sub-standard. You just don't want to install factory GM ABS on your car with the presumption that their factory ABS can't even come close to the S197 system with the FR control module. If Feit or Wilson have that data, then I am unaware of it as well.

 

As posted in another thread, losing the ABS system in the S197, IS NOT as simple as unplugging the unit or just running some new lines. You would AT THE BARE MINIMUM need to change the master cylinder, calipers and hand make lines and add a prop valve to make it work even remotely well. Most likely you would need to change the booster and the pedal box as well. So then you get into playing with the throttle pedal, yeah that sounds like fun with the new throttle by wire in the Coyote engines. None of this is a cost effective solution for the S197 since the factory pieces work fine. And we still haven't gotten into reliability between aftermarket non-ABS pieces to make everything work vs. the OEM pieces that have very strict quality controls in place. Let alone the fact that about half these cars are built from street cars which means you are asking half the guys to throw away perfectly good parts that will work on their car just because you don't want them to have ABS.

[UBR]

losing the ABS system in the S197, IS NOT as simple as unplugging the unit or just running some new lines.

You're right... It isn't just unplugging a fuse the way it used to be.

 

But, it also isn't rocket science. Our Fox has nothing from the original brakes. Big deal. That's part of building a race car.

 

It goes back to the decisions made when building, buying or modifying. I have built race cars for 35 years. The decisions usually come down to a cost/benefit. If the part has no benefit... Get rid of it. If a new or different part has a benefit, you do it.

 

I doubt any of us run stock shocks/struts, springs or many other parts. It cost money to replace them, but there is a benefit (percieved or real). ABS and/or OEM braking systems fall into the same decision process. There is a perceived benefit to using the system as is or there wouldn't be so many posts about allowing it and there wouldn't be so many posts like this, fighting to keep it. Or using arguements like 'it cost too much to remove/replace'.

 

These are race cars... Rarely is cost a factor if there is clear advantage to doing it.

 

j

[rpoz27]

 

As posted in another thread, losing the ABS system in the S197, IS NOT as simple as unplugging the unit or just running some new lines. You would AT THE BARE MINIMUM need to change the master cylinder, calipers and hand make lines and add a prop valve to make it work even remotely well.

 

Huh, tell that to the guy who won the CMC2 championship. He drove the car home. If he could figure it out, I am sure any race shop can figure it out. If the ABS system is doing THAT much to operate the brakes in those cars, it is clearly light years ahead of the ABS in the current crop of 10 year old AI cars that still used V6 versions of brake parts and master cylinders and now running 4 or 6 piston brake setups.

 

As for PROVING the 99 Camaro SS ABS is inferior to the FR500 Race ABS...that doesn't need testing. HOW MUCH inferior it is does need data...and it's all been collected on cars at Miller in 2009 and 2010. SN95, SN99, FR500 and Camaro. that data also shows the advantages of the race trans allowance and even the difference between the RA1 and the R888. NASA's race director for those races has that info... All those cars at those events were the best in the country and brought their A-games. Best test environment you could ask for....where is THAT data? If it's gone...that is sad.

[blackbolt9]

These are race cars... Rarely is cost a factor if there is clear advantage to doing it.

 

j

 

Exactly my point. There is no advantage to taking off the stock brake system. Which makes it stupid to spend more money to get rid of the stock ABS. Which is why it was argued to make the stock system legal. The FR brake module muddied those waters unfortunately, which is why we are where we're at.

[blackbolt9]

Huh, tell that to the guy who won the CMC2 championship. He drove the car home. If he could figure it out, I am sure any race shop can figure it out. If the ABS system is doing THAT much to operate the brakes in those cars, it is clearly light years ahead of the ABS in the current crop of 10 year old AI cars that still used V6 versions of brake parts and master cylinders and now running 4 or 6 piston brake setups.

 

As for PROVING the 99 Camaro SS ABS is inferior to the FR500 Race ABS...that doesn't need testing. HOW MUCH inferior it is does need data...and it's all been collected on cars at Miller in 2009 and 2010. SN95, SN99, FR500 and Camaro. that data also shows the advantages of the race trans allowance and even the difference between the RA1 and the R888. NASA's race director for those races has that info... All those cars at those events were the best in the country and brought their A-games. Best test environment you could ask for....where is THAT data? If it's gone...that is sad.

 

Huh, where did Anders get those brakes?

 

The ABS system in the newer cars is what does the front to rear proportioning, if I'm understanding what I've been told correctly. So yes, it does do more than previous systems. I don't know if that's really considered "light years ahead" or not but it does make a substantial difference when you decide not to use it compared to the older systems.

 

I have no idea where that data is at. I would completely agree that it would be sad if it just disappeared. I would assume that data was looked at and used to come up with the 2010 & 2011 rules which means it should have changed the ABS rule before now, but we all know where assuming gets you.

[UBR]

Huh, where did Anders get those brakes?

Not sure where he got them but the point is, abs is not allowed in CMC.

 

If the brake system is totally integrated in the new cars, the only way for Anders to disable the abs would have been to replace the entire system with factory production parts from an older Mustang.

 

Per the CMC rules:

"7.32.2 The brake master cylinder and brake booster must be OEM stock and unmodified. Any year SVO Mustang master cylinders/boosters are allowed for Early Ford cars.

7.32.3 A brake-proportioning valve may be used provided that it is an inline, pressure-limiting type.

7.32.7 Antilock braking systems (ABS) are prohibited. OEM stock ABS systems must be removed or disabled by unplugging the wiring harness from the ABS actuator unit."

 

And this is a class that is supposed to keep costs down and maintain the "stock" level of performance.

 

j

[blackbolt9]

Huh, where did Anders get those brakes?

Not sure where he got them but the point is, abs is not allowed in CMC.

 

If the brake system is totally integrated in the new cars, the only way for Anders to disable the abs would have been to replace the entire system with factory production parts from an older Mustang.

 

Per the CMC rules:

"7.32.2 The brake master cylinder and brake booster must be OEM stock and unmodified. Any year SVO Mustang master cylinders/boosters are allowed for Early Ford cars.

7.32.3 A brake-proportioning valve may be used provided that it is an inline, pressure-limiting type.

7.32.7 Antilock braking systems (ABS) are prohibited. OEM stock ABS systems must be removed or disabled by unplugging the wiring harness from the ABS actuator unit."

 

And this is a class that is supposed to keep costs down and maintain the "stock" level of performance.

 

j

 

And my point is, Anders had to go through more effort to conform to the rules just because they don't allow ABS. My assumption is he simply ran lines from one circuit of the master through a prop valve to the rear brakes and the other circuit to the front brakes. If that's true, he has to SPEND money to conform to those rules that are supposed to KEEP COSTS DOWN by buying a proportioning valve and new brake lines instead of leaving the stock parts in the car. Then he has to tweak and play with his new system to make it work well, when he could have just went out and drove the car with the stock system.

 

I have never said you have to have ABS on the S197, I've said it doesn't make sense not to have it.

[T&A Racing]

I have never said you have to have ABS on the S197, I've said it doesn't make sense not to have it.

 

I guess it would only make sense if it were against the rules as in CMC, so it seems settled it can be removed with reasonable effort, there is really no way to make the series equitable by allowing it due to difference in OEM parts so it should just be eliminated from the series. Wow who would have guessed it was that simple. Great let's move on, seems like everyone is in agreement that was simple.

 

Now we will just have to see what the rules actually say

[D Algozine]

Huh, where did Anders get those brakes?

Not sure where he got them but the point is, abs is not allowed in CMC.

 

If the brake system is totally integrated in the new cars, the only way for Anders to disable the abs would have been to replace the entire system with factory production parts from an older Mustang.

 

Per the CMC rules:

"7.32.2 The brake master cylinder and brake booster must be OEM stock and unmodified. Any year SVO Mustang master cylinders/boosters are allowed for Early Ford cars.

7.32.3 A brake-proportioning valve may be used provided that it is an inline, pressure-limiting type.

7.32.7 Antilock braking systems (ABS) are prohibited. OEM stock ABS systems must be removed or disabled by unplugging the wiring harness from the ABS actuator unit."

 

And this is a class that is supposed to keep costs down and maintain the "stock" level of performance.

 

j

 

And my point is, Anders had to go through more effort to conform to the rules just because they don't allow ABS. My assumption is he simply ran lines from one circuit of the master through a prop valve to the rear brakes and the other circuit to the front brakes. If that's true, he has to SPEND money to conform to those rules that are supposed to KEEP COSTS DOWN by buying a proportioning valve and new brake lines instead of leaving the stock parts in the car. Then he has to tweak and play with his new system to make it work well, when he could have just went out and drove the car with the stock system.

 

I have never said you have to have ABS on the S197, I've said it doesn't make sense not to have it.

 

I try like hell to stay away !

1) When you reference the difficulty of removing ABS and the fact that the car came with FR ABS, you are talking about a purpose built factory pro race car, not a production line OEM car. If racers want to buy pro race cars, they should have to remove illegal parts, just like it has always been done in the past. For some reason, special rules have been instituted for special cars. FYI the OEM system is not the main issue.

 

2) As it has been pointed out, a majority of new cars (just like nearly all) are assembled from scratch, so as Jim pointed out, its a matter of not installing a part in most cases. Hundreds of parts come off a produciton car, and many systems are changed or modified. This is a builders class. How many hours go into any build? Another couple hours is not going to brake(sp) the bank. We all have done it. It's part of building a race car. So instead of $50k, a new car without ABS may cost $51k. Sell the system and recoup the money. Same goes for the trans, but I digress....even further

 

3) It's not that difficult to leave the system off. Other AI platforms perform hours and cubic dollars of mods to get there cars both legal and competitive. Why not the new cars?

 

4) CMC guys have done it with relative ease, and so has Rehagen, along with 13" brakes. OMG how did they ever figure out how to make it work?? It must of taken thousands of dollars and hundreds of man hours.......NOT

[svttim]

I try like hell to stay away ! ( I understand that feeling Dave)

1) When you reference the difficulty of removing ABS and the fact that the car came with FR ABS, you are talking about a purpose built factory pro race car, (an incorrect assumption on your part) not a production line OEM car (true). If racers want to buy pro race cars, they should have to remove illegal parts, (unless they fall into the current ruleset) just like it has always been done in the past. For some reason, special rules have been instituted for special cars, so lets penalize those that came in after the rule change or those that had nothing to do with them, they are all rich anyway. FYI the OEM system is not the main issue.

 

2) As it has been pointed out, a majority of new cars (just like nearly all cars in the class) are assembled from scratch, so as Jim pointed out, its a matter of not installing a part in most cases. Hundreds of parts come off a produciton car, and many systems are changed or modified. This is a builders class. How many hours go into any build? Another couple hours is not going to brake(sp) the bank. We all have done it. It's part of building a race car. So instead of $50k, a new car without ABS may cost $51k. (Thats a bargain) Sell the system (to who Dave?) and recoup the money. Same goes for the trans, but I digress....even further

 

3) It's not that difficult to leave the system off (after your car is already built per the rules). Other AI platforms perform hours and cubic dollars of mods to get there cars both legal and competitive. Why not the new cars? (So, its not cheap like TJ said?)

 

4) CMC guys have done it with relative ease, and we should be just like CMC, and so has Rehagen, along with 13" brakes( lets shoot for 10 or 12 inch Dave). OMG how did they ever figure out how to make it work?? It must of taken thousands of dollars and hundreds of man hours.......NOT

 

Why dont we just go back to the 2002 Rules, chissel them in granite tablets and never change

 

[bluebandit48]

I believe Anders had a stock brake package before he bought the new setup from Dean.

 

There are more than one s197 that runs in CMC so it must not be that hard to disable the ABS and still make the brakes work

 

whats another 50 bucks for new lines and a prop valve when people are spending 50 grand on a car to begin with. typically people upgrade calipers to begin with so no added expence. and as for the booster.. im not sure you would have to change it.

 

and i am not 100% sure why Blackbolt is making such a big deal about this.. if he works for dean.. then he would get customers to pay him to remove the ABS systems. or upgrade to better ABS.. Job security.. or volunteer security.

[bluebandit48]

oh yeah.. Robin Brunett had a s197 with a carborated 351.. hopefully everyone still remembers what those things are..

 

i dont believe he had ABS

 

AND

 

He won A/I championships

 

s197s are good cars, so people typically want the best of the best when it comes to racing. so if something is winning.. people tend to buy those cars over others.

[blackbolt9]

I believe Anders had a stock brake package before he bought the new setup from Dean.

 

To my knowledge that is correct.

 

There are more than one s197 that runs in CMC so it must not be that hard to disable the ABS and still make the brakes work

 

To my knowledge the ABS isn't disabled, it is completely removed in order to get a properly working system.

 

whats another 50 bucks for new lines and a prop valve when people are spending 50 grand on a car to begin with. typically people upgrade calipers to begin with so no added expence. and as for the booster.. im not sure you would have to change it.

 

You don't HAVE to upgrade calipers. You don't HAVE to upgrade the booster. You don't HAVE to upgrade the master cylinder. You don't HAVE to do alot of things to have brakes that will slow a car down reasonably well. But if you want maximum performance from everything working together properly, you probably SHOULD change alot of those things.

 

and i am not 100% sure why Blackbolt is making such a big deal about this.. if he works for dean.. then he would get customers to pay him to remove the ABS systems. or upgrade to better ABS.. Job security.. or volunteer security.

 

I'm giving information that I have, to people that it isn't readily available to. Just because that disagrees with others opinions doesn't mean I'm "making a bid deal" about it. I'm just giving a factual side of the story. I only continue to agrue it because no one has provided any proof that the information I'm giving is incorrect. If someone wants to provide solid evidence that I'm wrong, I'll admit I'm wrong and move along.

 

Just because I'm friends with Dean and work/volunteer/whatever for his business doesn't mean I can't have an outside opinion? I'm not looking to make Dean or Rehagen more money by agreeing to a rule to give him or anyone else more work. Believe it or not, I'm thinking of myself and what I would want if I was building my own car. Would I want to throw away the stock parts that came on my car that work perfectly fine? Or would I want to spend more money on replacing stuff because other people don't want to use what comes on their car from the factory? And FWIW I have a Fox body that I would love to build and race in AI, I just don't have the money at this point in my life because of other choices I have made.

[bluebandit48]

I only continue to agrue it because no one has provided any proof that the information I'm giving is incorrect. If someone wants to provide solid evidence that I'm wrong, I'll admit I'm wrong and move along.

 

 

They don't have to. They can change a rule for any reason they want to. they typically try and change it for the better but every now and then someone gets rubbed the wrong way.

 

Don't feel too bad about ABS... come run CMC with a s197 and you have no abs and smaller than stock tires.. 235s, that rule was made with no posted data either. I am sure its out there somewhere but at least NASA is trying to make the different platforms equal?

 

btw.. your fox body would fit nicely in CMC!

[Red Tornado]

Ahh the ongoing debate continues...

 

Ok I didn't upgrade at all on my stock GT abs so thats what I have in mine. I don't see anyone doing wild braking advantages with super racing abs but would love to compare.

 

Oh and all of this is likely totally thrown in air again by returning to toyo's.

 

I bet on toyo's you will see same track times we saw at nationals 3 -5 years ago. High 35's and low 36's for top 3-5 guys.

 

We only ran low 34's on hoosiers so 2 seconds for tires (i tested on my old car) and low 36's it is.

 

Who wants to bet??

[blackbolt9]

I only continue to agrue it because no one has provided any proof that the information I'm giving is incorrect. If someone wants to provide solid evidence that I'm wrong, I'll admit I'm wrong and move along.

 

 

They don't have to. They can change a rule for any reason they want to. they typically try and change it for the better but every now and then someone gets rubbed the wrong way.

 

Don't feel too bad about ABS... come run CMC with a s197 and you have no abs and smaller than stock tires.. 235s, that rule was made with no posted data either. I am sure its out there somewhere but at least NASA is trying to make the different platforms equal?

 

btw.. your fox body would fit nicely in CMC!

 

I'm honestly not looking for proof from the rule makers. They make their rules based on the best evidence they have available to them, and have to make decisions based on more than just imperical data to try and keep everyone happy. I rather want to see it from the people that are blindly complaining with nothing to back it up.

 

I don't feel bad about ABS at all. I'd still build my Fox body to run AI, IF I had the money. I already know what combination I want to try and make work. But I don't have an extra $20-30,000 sitting around right now for various reasons, one of which being the current housing market. I honestly think I could build an AI competitive Fox platform, the real problem would be proving it since I know without a doubt I am not a good enough driver to hang with those guys that are finishing up front, no matter how many "super awesome trick parts" I could come up with.

 

Oh and all of this is likely totally thrown in air again by returning to toyo's.

 

Who wants to bet??

 

I'm definitely not betting against you on that part.

[UBR]

oh yeah.. Robin Brunett had a s197 with a carborated 351.. hopefully everyone still remembers what those things are..

 

i dont believe he had ABS.

We have Robin's old S197 now. It still has a carb, but on a 347 FRPP motor now. No ABS, stock booster and different master cylinder and re-plumbed brake lines. Yes it is a former national championship car (2008, in Robin's hands- not ours). I'm not sure how it would compare to the newest 2011 S197s Dean is putting out.

 

Might be fun to put Dean in the 50 one day and ours the next to compare.

 

j

[nape]

Oh and all of this is likely totally thrown in air again by returning to toyo's.

 

I bet on toyo's you will see same track times we saw at nationals 3 -5 years ago. High 35's and low 36's for top 3-5 guys.

 

We only ran low 34's on hoosiers so 2 seconds for tires (i tested on my old car) and low 36's it is.

 

Who wants to bet??

 

That sounds right for ABS cars since it's the same P/W we've run with for years. With the new non-ABS P/W, there might be a low-mid 35 in there somewhere.

[Red Tornado]

Like I have said now back on same tires it should answer alot of these abs questions and rules adjustments one way or another.

[supermac]

Huh, where did Anders get those brakes?

Not sure where he got them but the point is, abs is not allowed in CMC.

 

If the brake system is totally integrated in the new cars, the only way for Anders to disable the abs would have been to replace the entire system with factory production parts from an older Mustang.

 

Per the CMC rules:

"7.32.2 The brake master cylinder and brake booster must be OEM stock and unmodified. Any year SVO Mustang master cylinders/boosters are allowed for Early Ford cars.

7.32.3 A brake-proportioning valve may be used provided that it is an inline, pressure-limiting type.

7.32.7 Antilock braking systems (ABS) are prohibited. OEM stock ABS systems must be removed or disabled by unplugging the wiring harness from the ABS actuator unit."

 

And this is a class that is supposed to keep costs down and maintain the "stock" level of performance.

 

j

 

And my point is, Anders had to go through more effort to conform to the rules just because they don't allow ABS. My assumption is he simply ran lines from one circuit of the master through a prop valve to the rear brakes and the other circuit to the front brakes. If that's true, he has to SPEND money to conform to those rules that are supposed to KEEP COSTS DOWN by buying a proportioning valve and new brake lines instead of leaving the stock parts in the car. Then he has to tweak and play with his new system to make it work well, when he could have just went out and drove the car with the stock system.

 

I have never said you have to have ABS on the S197, I've said it doesn't make sense not to have it.

 

 

 

 

 

Nope, he just unplug

 

ged it. I just talked to him and looked at the car. You need a nw

[supermac]

Stupid phone.

he just unplugged it.

You really need to bang new drum.