sundialracing Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 And maybe Ford will get bored and go away, Funny, obviously, GM and Chrysler were never interested in the first place Maybe the reason GM and Chrysler were "never interested" is the fact that they were so broke they can't afford to pay attention?????? Blaming Ford Racing is like Rosie O'Donnell blaming a fork for being overweight..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sundialracing Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 And maybe Ford will get bored and go away, Funny, obviously, GM and Chrysler were never interested in the first place Anyone who thinks Ford was interested in AI when they made the parts that keep getting complained about is utterly delusional. Ford Racing did it to make money!!! Making money seems to be against "AI" philosophy........... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racer91m Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 How did this go from a discussion about a new "mustang Challenge" class to bitching about non competitive cars and rules??? Can we stay on topic please? It would be nice to see a productive discussion about this rather than everyone barking at each other. If the S197 cars are stinking up the show because Ford has developed a street car that is significantly better as a race car than any other American brand, and the older Mustangs, and the AI guys want them out, let's figure something out. We're not going to get anywhere bitching about you got this and you got that... The topic is a new MC class within NASA. It's unlikely that it will happen for next year, but if someone could make a proper argument for needing it and how it is better for NASA nationally, then maybe it will be heard and implemented for 2013. I'm open for it. Tell me why NASA will be better off doing it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racer91m Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 Look, the fact is that Ford Racing built cars to compete in a pro series. They did it for PR and parts development for the aftermarket and grassroots racers. Does it not seem logical to everyone that these cars and parts would end up in AI when they became obsolete in the pro series? To think not is naive or dare I say, stupid. We're all racers trying to find the best thing we can afford to build. It's racing. No matter where you go, there will almost always be someone out there doing it better or cheaper than you. Shame on Ford for seeing an opportunity within the grassroots arena and having the balls to get in. Now where were we? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Tornado Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 and back on task.... So allow WC, Grand-am, and AI cars with some mods. -Any size wheel allowed but 275 size tire - 8.3 power to weight so cars can also run ST2 but do there own sub series!!! - ride height, whatever for the series they came from. - all else AI rules Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D Algozine Posted October 21, 2011 Author Share Posted October 21, 2011 Look, the fact is that Ford Racing built cars to compete in a pro series. They did it for PR and parts development for the aftermarket and grassroots racers. Does it not seem logical to everyone that these cars and parts would end up in AI when they became obsolete in the pro series? To think not is naive or dare I say, stupid. We're all racers trying to find the best thing we can afford to build. It's racing. No matter where you go, there will almost always be someone out there doing it better or cheaper than you. Shame on Ford for seeing an opportunity within the grassroots arena and having the balls to get in. Now where were we? Does it not seem logical to everyone that these cars and parts would end up in AI when they became obsolete in the pro series? So, the 2012 Boss and the not so old Grand Am cars are obsolete? Not yet. The rules were changed months after this new stuff arrived, not years. No testing, no data, no comparisons, nothing, just made it all legal. According to Todd the average age of AI cars is 10 years, not 10 weeks. The new cars and new FR stuff is jumping directly into AI. No one blames Ford, no one blames the racers, no one blames the new car, it's AI rule makers who screwed it up. IF you make rule changes to benifit one single highly developed car, then you have to figure out how to make it equal with the rest of the entire AI field. They have not done that for the last 6 years and counting. That is the problem. If the S197 cars are stinking up the show because Ford has developed a street car that is significantly better as a race car than any other American brand, and the older Mustangs, and the AI guys want them out, let's figure something out. G Damn, still missing the point. Ford Racing built a better pro race car then the rest of the AI field. Very important distinction. As far as this new all new "Boss" spec class. Highly unlikely that a lot of guys want to go run there. No advantage. They would all be equal. (sarcastic comment, don't take it literly, just making my point) Shame on Ford for seeing an opportunity within the grassroots arena and having the balls to get in. Do you really want us to believe that they spent all that time and money so the new cars would be dominant in grassroots racing? I think maybe it for some other series. You may be familiar with it. Plus the Mustang Challenge and now WC. AI got huge eyes and said, sure we'll make a spot for you guys. $$$. Apparently AI want to become another pro series, which is news to me. The rest of the field will just have to figure out how to keep up, pun intended. FYI - Its not just me. I may be the loudest, but I've gotten a few emails directly sent to me. I suppose they don't want to be labeled as a trouble makers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D Algozine Posted October 21, 2011 Author Share Posted October 21, 2011 and back on task.... So allow WC, Grand-am, and AI cars with some mods. -Any size wheel allowed but 275 size tire - 8.3 power to weight so cars can also run ST2 but do there own sub series!!! - ride height, whatever for the series they came from. - all else AI rules FYI - The question about a new class was a kind of a rhetorical question. You guys have made my point. It appears you would rather have a new class created for your cars, rather then have to change your cars to fit in AI, wthout even knowing if and what the changes may be. Obvisiously not everyone with the "new car" has said that, but enough to make my point. I assume, its easier to just move on, rather then make some adjustments. I was thinking that there would be a few guys who fessed up to having an advantage and want to make it equal to continue to race in AI. I might have missed someones comments, but I don't think I read that from any of the "new cars" guys", not even the self proclaimed "poster boy for the new AI" what ever that means. (sorry couldn't let it go) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Tornado Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 Ok what is up with a few really cold water folks. Is the class half empty or even a glass to some of you. Listen I have run AI now for nearly the full ten years with only a few breaks to have kids. I have had a 1995 Firebird, 2004 Cobra and now a 2011 Boss Clone. The class has always been a ton of fun. This forum Todd has turned in to some folks piss and moan area and they need to go exercise or something to relieve there stress instead of dump it on all of us here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robbodleimages Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 why not just use the wc gts template. boss, cammer and 3v can all run that series. so could coyote if desired. open dot tires unless sponsor steps forward....dean any thinking that continental might throw in as they already make the tire is the correct size? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D Algozine Posted October 22, 2011 Author Share Posted October 22, 2011 Ok what is up with a few really cold water folks. Is the class half empty or even a glass to some of you. Listen I have run AI now for nearly the full ten years with only a few breaks to have kids. I have had a 1995 Firebird, 2004 Cobra and now a 2011 Boss Clone. The class has always been a ton of fun. This forum Todd has turned in to some folks pee-piddily-diddily and moan area and they need to go exercise or something to relieve there stress instead of dump it on all of us here. Well, Chris is it worth it to everyone involved to work together to put a complete, fair package together for some more great racing? I'm hoping the answer is yes, but the feeling for some may be, what ever is best for that individual, which I don't think is good for the series. It appears that some would just rather keep there cars as they are, and would rather go it alone, instead of try and figure a fair package for everyone. Nothing harsh on my end, I was hoping for unity. I said it in the beginning, there aren't enough racers to split the group. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mustcone347 Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 Seroiusly, a S197 challenge, well after looking at the National championship vids it apears you have already accomplished that goal. Why not fix the current problem with parity in the series and get more of the GM/Chrysler cars back. Most of those guys are already alienated and have back peddled to CMC or up to ST whatever. AI used to be a a nice slice of variety now its bland pie with mostly S197s...................uh Huston you have a problem....... and making a new class will just make it worse. Racing is about the battle between the manufacturers, and that sadly is gone in AI. A one manufacturer class racing is boring, just like the Mustang Challenge was, and that may have contributed to its demise. Similar to Viper Spec, Porsche Spec et.al. racing one mark only entertains those diehard fans for a short while and even they get bored with it and then the series dies. In this case it will kill two classes. .02 cents Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racer91m Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 So I'm confused.... From everything I've read, I can't seem to figure out what the non-S197 guys want... Is the series really bland? Clearly we have different views on racing. Being someone who has been involved in Grand Am, Mustang Challenge, World Challenge, and American Iron, I see the strengths and weeknesses of the various series and classes. This series is far from bland. To say that the Mustang Challenge series failed because it was boring is just a statement of ignorance. Let the rules fall where they may. I just want to race. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UBR Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 A one manufacturer class racing is boring... racing one mark only entertains those diehard fans for a short while and even they get bored with it and then the series dies. I understand your points about AI, but around the midwest, Spec Miata, 944 Spec and Honda Challenge are going strong and they are single mark/manufacturer series. I'm with Dean, I just want to race! j Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mustcone347 Posted October 26, 2011 Share Posted October 26, 2011 A one manufacturer class racing is boring... racing one mark only entertains those diehard fans for a short while and even they get bored with it and then the series dies. I understand your points about AI, but around the midwest, Spec Miata, 944 Spec and Honda Challenge are going strong and they are single mark/manufacturer series. I'm with Dean, I just want to race! j I guess what I meant to say was its hard to take a multi manufacturer series and morph it into a spec series. AI to me should be like old Trans Am with multiple marks racing for the championship not a bunch of clones of one mark. The other spec series (Miata, E30, Honda, 944 et.al.)were concieved as a spec series from the get go and therefore have the advantage that the rules were drawn accordingly. They only need adjusment to retain parity between the manufacturer years. Taking a multi manufacturer series and favoring one mark due to its curb appeal or factory backing is BS. The rules should be made to favor the older tech and handicap the newer models. Especially in the light that the car in question , S197, is clearly in a class by itself regarding AI. Not saying that a hot shoe cant peddle other cars to the front but the odds are against it and there is really not much to argue there. I really could give a Sh*!* about what the hot setup is because its outa reach for most $$. I will drive my old crap can blast down the straights and park it in the corners. Everyone who doesnt own an S197 wants to race, even the GM guys, but if theres not much chance of being competitive whats the point. I know round here the GM crowd has given a collective middle finger salute to AI therefore killing the series in RM. I will have to agree if I were in their shoes I would have done the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redsnake08 Posted October 26, 2011 Share Posted October 26, 2011 "confused" really dean? Its simple! Very simple! We the non s197 owners,drivers want to race in the AI that was.... meaning before ford racing abs and 14" ferrari brakes! Some of these posts have gottin a bit off topic but the point is if NASA doesnt restrict s197s or put them in a class other then AI then obviously everyone else will be out! After watching the national video its sooo damb obvious that you can out brake anybody anywhere! Its nothing personal towards all you s197 owners.... NASA has got to realize and or give a crap that the technology has just gottin too far advanced to have 1964 cars to present on a level playing field. Its time to either split the class or make some rule changes! And I as well "just want to race" but I dont want to spend x of thousands every year to be a GUARANTEED back marker! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thonczarenko Posted October 26, 2011 Share Posted October 26, 2011 Why not give a weight penalty to the cars that consistently finish out front. Doesn't Grand-Am do this? This way it does not matter what you show up with, if you are finishing in P1 (or make it top 3 finishers), you are given "X" amount of weight for the next "X" amount of races; increase amount of weight for finishing top 3 with penalty weight. I know that makes for a bit more work on the Official's end, but it would help with advantages. First finish: Second podium finish w/weight: 1st= 50lbs 1st=100lbs 2nd=25lbs 2nd=50lbs 3rd=15lbs 3rd=25lbs Or another method; try to curb advantages, e.g., there should be a penalty for FR/4 channel ABS and or 14" brakes; perhaps a 255 series tire limit. A level playing field is what we are trying to achieve, and the best way to do so, is to have penalty factors for certain hardware advantages. Thus allowing new and different manufacturer cars to run with minimal changes to their vehicles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robbodleimages Posted October 26, 2011 Share Posted October 26, 2011 We've got a pretty fast AI challenger here in the SE already. I am surprised noone has gotten a Camaro out on a regular basis. I think this would be a completely different conversation if the GM bunch were bringing new Camaros to the track at the same rate that Ford drivers were bringing the Mustangs. Why are the Camaros not coming out? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donovan Posted October 26, 2011 Share Posted October 26, 2011 AI = 2007 Rule Set (with one exception: Ford=Ford Engine GM=GM Engine) Anyone else that wants to run 18", Race ABS, blah blah blah, run ST2... Problem Solved! DD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
svttim Posted October 27, 2011 Share Posted October 27, 2011 We've got a pretty fast AI challenger here in the SE already. I am surprised noone has gotten a Camaro out on a regular basis. I think this would be a completely different conversation if the GM bunch were bringing new Camaros to the track at the same rate that Ford drivers were bringing the Mustangs. Why are the Camaros not coming out? That is a good question. A couple of possible answers, the economy sucks, the new gen Camaro has not been out as long as the current mustang so, fewer cheap bodies around, the economy sucks, it seems the new Camaro is more dificult to build (I have heard, no personal knowlege) and did I mention, the economy sucks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robbodleimages Posted October 27, 2011 Share Posted October 27, 2011 the boss 302s crowd is in the same economy as the no show camaro crowd. one camaro for every boss S would be nice to see. on the other hand a Boss 302S retails for $79K and a Riley GS Camaro is over $200k. maybe thats the difference. it costs two dollars to build a camaro for every one spent on a mustang. can that be? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
svttim Posted October 27, 2011 Share Posted October 27, 2011 the boss 302s crowd is in the same economy as the no show camaro crowd. one camaro for every boss S would be nice to see. on the other hand a Boss 302S retails for $79K and a Riley GS Camaro is over $200k. maybe thats the difference. it costs two dollars to build a camaro for every one spent on a mustang. can that be? Those that have money are doing well in this economy. Those that dont, well...... I would think if GM offered the same type of car, it would sell out as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thonczarenko Posted October 28, 2011 Share Posted October 28, 2011 the boss 302s crowd is in the same economy as the no show camaro crowd. one camaro for every boss S would be nice to see. on the other hand a Boss 302S retails for $79K and a Riley GS Camaro is over $200k. maybe thats the difference. it costs two dollars to build a camaro for every one spent on a mustang. can that be? Even though the Boss 302R is quite a bit cheaper ($130k for Grand-Am package) than the GS Camaro, it's still up there in price! I need to remind myself to win the lottery... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
svttim Posted October 28, 2011 Share Posted October 28, 2011 Why the R when the S is almost have as expensive? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robbodleimages Posted October 28, 2011 Share Posted October 28, 2011 the 302r is $130k. the 302s is $79k. the difference is that the grand am package includes seam welding, fuel cell, i think there is a bosch ecu that is required by grand am. there is no factory camaro race car. riley builds them and i am only familiar with the gs version of that car. its over $200k. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racer91m Posted October 28, 2011 Share Posted October 28, 2011 Boss R has Ford electronics and PCM... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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