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2012 RULES PROPOSAL 1: Eliminate the 13/13 rule


JSG1901

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This was suggested by three people. Their arguments for the proposal were as follows:

 

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NASA's CCR provides extensive and detailed means for determining both when a penalty should be applied and what that penalty should be. The 13/13 rule is a holdover from the early days of GTS when it was believed this was necessary to attract participants from other series. At this point, it is a rarely-if-ever-used provision which can just as easily be addressed through the standard NASA CCR provisions.

 

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First of all there is NO National Data base to keep track of 13/13's, so it is kind of a moot point to put someone on probation if no one else in the country knows about it nor is it enforced from region to region.

 

Also, when GTS first started it used a modified version of 13/13 rule found in PCA and BMW Club to help attract drivers from those other bodies. Those clubs continue to use the rule, but have lost many of their racers to NASA GTS. Also when the 13/13 rule was first used by these clubs, racers were driving their cars to and from the track, so it was used to make sure folks could safely race and drive back home.

 

This is no longer the case. In GTS race cars are getting more and more sophisticated and I can't think of one racer that drives his car to the track !! Also when you get a racer to come to GTS and he has a contact incident, with the 13/13 in most cases you'll find the driver stops coming to events, as the threat of a 13 month exclusion from the series isn't the best for encouraging someone to race ! In fact, the 13/13 rule hasn't been enforced for years and the GTS group keeps growing and growing !!

 

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The modified 13/13 rule is completely redundant to the NASA rules and suggested sanctions. It ads no new specific sanctions over those that are currently used in the standard CCR.

 

It can only be used with GTS to GTS contact, not out of GTS contact and single car incidents.

 

It can be confusing to drivers who assume that it is similar to other sanctioning bodies 13/13 rule.

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I'm in favor of doing away with the 13/13. It's not really ever been enforced and the CCR has rules that deal with body contact. One less thing the directors have to worry about.

 

 

-Scott B.

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I say keep it:

- I disagree with the origins of the rule as written in the above posts. IMO 13/13 is a deterrent of contact to get guys in Porsches BMWs and such to race there cars that are typically way more expensive than what's out there beating and banging - like Miatas and SE30's.

- Nationals was brutal. I know of many folks who claim that they will not return due to the carnage. If there is a decrease in GTS participation from other (other than GL) regions, you may be able to point to that.

- The threat of not being able to race (the deterrent factor of 13/13) is a good thing. I think BMW does a great job of enforcing the penalty. It's unwritten (and not uniformly followed by all stewards regrettably) but if both parties are cool, no penalty. In the case of an impact this year at Nats when an E46 GTS4 smashed a 911 square in the ass and the guy was NOT cool with it (to say the least) - penalty. Allow in the rules for discretion and coach your folks on how to apply it. I don't think anyone can argue that 13's should have gone out in GTS at Nats. I was surprised fewer folks didn't raise hell about it.

- Lockton/Affinity is considering offering track insurance for 13/13 racing (they do travel/paddock insurance now). I think many people will look at this. It may only be applicable for GTS only run groups and that may be an issue but just throwing it out there.

 

I saying these things from an administrative position (I'm not a NASA admin but I am a businessman) as I have no problem with the rough and tumble. I've had contact racing in the past 3 years about 5 times. All but 1 was racing NASA, none were GTS cars. But I have seen a situation where the 13 worked. In MA we had a round track driver come into GTS and "rub" every car in the field for 3 weekends. He is a great guy and LOVES to race but had he been allowed to continue he would have emptied the GTS ranks. He has since fallen in line so I say it worked.

 

Rigid Nazi style enforcement is not the answer just as eliminating the rule isn't. Relaxed common sense application is the way, you need to keep the rule on the books for that little bit of piece of mind for the guy with the GT3 or the E92 M3 who's thinking of coming in, or the hammer you need to get someone under control.

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I'm in favor of doing away with the 13/13. It's not really ever been enforced and the CCR has rules that deal with body contact. One less thing the directors have to worry about.

 

 

-Scott B.

 

I think we need to keep it. Irrespective of the CCR it adds muscle to the Stewards rulings if needed. I agree video and other resolution tools are increasingly more valuable but if the intention is to keep the sport growing, anything that limits, prevents or reduces the liklihood of metal bending as well as injury, is good. Or we can expect the fields to be reduced only to those cars where enough owners are willing to assume that every event is a Lemons replay.

 

Colin C.

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I personally like the 13/13 rule and also drive my car to the track. It one big reason I joined this GTS class. My vote would be to keep it..

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I say keep it:

 

I saying these things from an administrative position (I'm not a NASA admin but I am a businessman) as I have no problem with the rough and tumble. I've had contact racing in the past 3 years about 5 times. All but 1 was racing NASA, none were GTS cars. But I have seen a situation where the 13 worked. In MA we had a round track driver come into GTS and "rub" every car in the field for 3 weekends. He is a great guy and LOVES to race but had he been allowed to continue he would have emptied the GTS ranks. He has since fallen in line so I say it worked.

 

In this example, the stewards could not have used regular CCR rules to penalize this fellow? Why not ?

 

Was it trully a 13/13 or was it just what they called that penalty. There have been plenty of times drivers have gone home or missed races because of CCR penalties.

 

I know of at least two people who have gotten significant (year ending) penalties for re-occuring issues. I know of a couple that have had probation for further contact. (in GTS or not)

 

That said, how do you administer an out of class car (lets say spec944) that runs in the GTS group and hits people. He does not have a 13/13 rule in his class. I am sure that the insurance companies would not insure a mixed 13/13 class with non 13/13 classes if they are not willing to insure non-13/13 classes. And, if that is the only criteria that they are using for which groups to insure...

 

Thanks

 

Ed

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it needs to be kept, it's a deterent against overly agreesive drivers, case in point rennsport 4 i got tapped TWICE once & practice the other i would consider a race incident, the race incident the other party owned up to it, thus no issues, the first incident was in PRACTICE & the other party got defensive, ideally the 13/13 rule will prevent low percentage passes

 

if you have no checks & balances what is to prevent someone from intentionally causing a incident? other than banning them?

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The 13 rule is a joke in Mid Atlantic. If we are going to keep the rule it needs to be enforced. You can't give a driver 5 or 6 chances.

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Keep it.

 

And enforce it.

 

I won't drag up history but the threat of not being able to race for 13 months is motivation to not be stupid. Some of these GTS cars have a lot of money in them and I find the 13/13 gives me a little confidence that the guy next to me is aware of the rule.

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I agree with what jcrist (Jason C.) and Goodhands (Scott B.) have to say, precise, to the point...and what I'd like to see.

 

Enforcement is another concern, definitely...good discussion.

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After Qually Race 2 in 06 Championship, I was given a 13 Month (!!!! ) Probation. (The merits behind this call still makes my neckhair bristle ) It did not deter me from racing in 07, I still raced for the lead in every race I ran, but, I do remember, it was always on my mind. I say it works, keep it.

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After Qually Race 2 in 06 Championship, I was given a 13 Month (!!!! ) Probation. (The merits behind this call still makes my neckhair bristle ) It did not deter me from racing in 07, I still raced for the lead in every race I ran, but, I do remember, it was always on my mind. I say it works, keep it.

 

Wow - good post...

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Eliminate it. It isn't enforced and the base CCR covers contact incidents.

 

Everyone brings up reasons to keep it which are good, but it seems like all of those points are still covered by the general CCR in NASA.

 

I've also seen some pretty big penatlies imposed on racers in other racing classes at NASA without a 13/13.

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My vote is keep it. I have not raced in GTS this year - only in PCA, but I plan to return. I have been bumped by an out-of-class car - I do not think that can be avoided unless NASA uniformly adopted 13/13. If enforcement is the issue, we need to raise our voices to get that to change.

 

As far as probation enforcement across regions, I think that would be easy to fix. If there is a national GTS administrator, require the local reps to provide that information, and check on that information during registration for each event.

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My vote is keep it. I have not raced in GTS this year - only in PCA, but I plan to return. I have been bumped by an out-of-class car - I do not think that can be avoided unless NASA uniformly adopted 13/13. If enforcement is the issue, we need to raise our voices to get that to change.

 

As far as probation enforcement across regions, I think that would be easy to fix. If there is a national GTS administrator, require the local reps to provide that information, and check on that information during registration for each event.

 

This would be an easy fix that National could do by keeping an up to date database in response to the series director doing their job, that automatically kicks in information at point of registration if the entrant is carrying baggage.

 

Overall, and in my opinion, eliminating the 13/13 would initially bring bad vibes from the BMW/PCA crossover people that may be hard to overcome. One or two instances of bad contact that draws big negative news moving throughout the communities could be hard to overcome.

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I think this thread goes to show why it needs to be eliminated or clarified. Everyone mistakenly thinks that if there is no 13/13, then there are no penalties. This is not the case. NASA CCR deals with contact issues and includes penalties. The modified 13/13 pretty much replicates those CCR rules but it gives people something to see in the GTS rules. In the current NASA CCRs, there are penalties which the directors see fit, and can use their muscle by way of 3, 6, 9, 13 month probations, suspensions or more.

 

Whether or not those penalties are enforced or issued is a separate issue.

 

JCrist: I did not know about Lockton's 13/13 insurance. Would be interesting to see the details on that.

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13/13 is a good rule and keeps a grip on the drivers who think there is big prize money for winning and think everyone has sponsors to do our body work. There are situations that don't warranty giving out a 13/13 so let the race stewards make the decision if there is very minor damage.

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I am just wondering, if All who is in favor of keeping 13/13 in place took the time to read NASA CCR - to see how penalties are applied in the existing NASA rules? The question is - Do we want to keep the poorly defined 13/13 in the current rules, which can't be applied in the mixed classes field, and mostly duplicated and more in the NASA CCR?

 

Michael G.

NE GTS Dir.

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For all who want to keep the 13/13 rule please give a concise definition that will be enforceable. In it's current state it is very subjective, and not clear cut for penalties like the NASA CCR's are. One look at Appendix A and you'll see that the CCR's go a lot further than a vague rule about 13 months.

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The only reasons I have seen to dump the 13/13 are:

 

1. It's not used.

2. It' vague.

 

My response:

 

#1, who's issue is that? If your region isn't using it, why not? It IS a GTS rule.

#2, Spot on. It DOES need to be tightened up.

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For all who want to keep the 13/13 rule please give a concise definition that will be enforceable. In it's current state it is very subjective, and not clear cut for penalties like the NASA CCR's are. One look at Appendix A and you'll see that the CCR's go a lot further than a vague rule about 13 months.

 

Exactly my point. Also see MGMGB's post right above.

 

READ THE NASA CCRs people. "Modified 13/13" is in there, just not in those exact words.

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I say eliminate the 13/13 rule. The CCR gives the Race Director enough latitude in ramping up the penalties that it isn't needed.

When it comes to the 13 month suspension, who decides when this is appropriate? This is a GTS rule, so the Race Director will not be the one handing it out (at least in our regions), so that leaves the Series Director, who may not have even been around when the incident happened.

Besides, handing out a 13 month suspension when a 2 or 3, or whatever number, race suspension may have been more appropriate would be a problem. More than likely, someone who receives a 13 month suspension will not return to NASA. And not only them, but anyone they may have brought over to us.

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I say eliminate the 13/13 rule. The CCR gives the Race Director enough latitude in ramping up the penalties that it isn't needed.

When it comes to the 13 month suspension, who decides when this is appropriate? This is a GTS rule, so the Race Director will not be the one handing it out (at least in our regions), so that leaves the Series Director, who may not have even been around when the incident happened.

Besides, handing out a 13 month suspension when a 2 or 3, or whatever number, race suspension may have been more appropriate would be a problem. More than likely, someone who receives a 13 month suspension will not return to NASA. And not only them, but anyone they may have brought over to us.

 

 

Here's the think Mark, while you certainly have an interested in GTS as a Race Director, there is no guarantee that others will. To those proposing that "it's not used, therefore eliminate it"... How often do you use your timing light and cam adjustment tool in your garage? OH? Only once per year? Well throw them away then along with all those other tools you don't use very often.

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13/13 rule needs to stay. It is a deterrent and out here on the left coast it is the only thing that has a chance of bringing the BMWCCA and PCA guys into the fold...

 

If you think it is not clear, clarify... if you think it is not enforced, enforce... It is one of core concepts of GTS verses other series as the cars in our class tend to cost more, hence keep the racing clean... I'll say it again, we already have a hard time getting those guys involved out here.... it goes to 0 if 13/13 goes away...

 

-Chuck

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13/13 rule needs to stay. It is a deterrent and out here on the left coast it is the only thing that has a chance of bringing the BMWCCA and PCA guys into the fold...

 

If you think it is not clear, clarify... if you think it is not enforced, enforce... It is one of core concepts of GTS verses other series as the cars in our class tend to cost more, hence keep the racing clean... I'll say it again, we already have a hard time getting those guys involved out here.... it goes to 0 if 13/13 goes away...

 

-Chuck

 

Chuck, please read the replies and comments above. Specifically:

 

wildhorsesracing wrote:

For all who want to keep the 13/13 rule please give a concise definition that will be enforceable. In it's current state it is very subjective, and not clear cut for penalties like the NASA CCR's are. One look at Appendix A and you'll see that the CCR's go a lot further than a vague rule about 13 months.

 

It's ALREADY IN THE CCRs. Hell, the "modified 13/13" blurb in the rules even specifically points to the NASA CCR for guidance on fault and penalties! It's also done on a "sliding scale" which doesnt mean 13 months either. It could be any amount of time. The whole point of this debate is that the "modified 13/13" is ALREADY in the NASA CCR as currently written in the GTS Rules.

 

Really IRKS me to read posts of those who say "KEEP IT!!!", but they dont even bother to read the dang rules to see what it says.

 

2. Modified 13/13

To promote clean and competitive driving, in addition to NASA’s rules and suggested sanctions

in the CCR, the series will use a Modified 13/13 rule for on course conduct. The intent of the

Modified 13/13 rule is to provide some degree of deterrence against casual body damage and

contact by careless drivers but without excessive penalties for normal race driving. In multiple

car incidents all relevant evidence will be used to assess fault. Sanctions for drivers found to be

at fault will be imposed by officials on a sliding scale subject to the discretion of the officials.

Drivers in single car incidents will not be subject to sanction under the Modified 13/13 rule. The

Modified 13/13 rule can also be applied to a driver whose on track conduct causes damage to

another driver’s car even if there was no physical contact between the cars. Penalty decisions

will be heard by any combination of NASA Race Directors, GTS officials, and/or Incident

Review Boards (IRB’s) which may be formed and operated per the NASA CCR.

GTS Modified 13/13 penalties will not be applied when an incident occurs in a mixed race group

between a GTS driver and a driver in another class. In those instances, standard NASA CCR

penalties and procedures will apply.

The Modified 13/13 rule can be applied post event as it is not always possible to determine fault

at the track in a timely manner. No Modified 13/13 penalty can conflict with the findings of a

NASA Race Director and penalties can vary in length subject to the discretion of GTS officials.

Regardless of the length of the penalty, no penalty is over until the driver participates in at least

one GTS class race while subject to the penalty

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