2012 RULES PROPOSAL 1: Eliminate the 13/13 rule

[CKKrause]

13/13 rule needs to stay. It is a deterrent and out here on the left coast it is the only thing that has a chance of bringing the BMWCCA and PCA guys into the fold...

 

If you think it is not clear, clarify... if you think it is not enforced, enforce... It is one of core concepts of GTS verses other series as the cars in our class tend to cost more, hence keep the racing clean... I'll say it again, we already have a hard time getting those guys involved out here.... it goes to 0 if 13/13 goes away...

 

-Chuck

 

Chuck, please read the replies and comments above. Specifically:

 

wildhorsesracing wrote:

For all who want to keep the 13/13 rule please give a concise definition that will be enforceable. In it's current state it is very subjective, and not clear cut for penalties like the NASA CCR's are. One look at Appendix A and you'll see that the CCR's go a lot further than a vague rule about 13 months.

 

It's ALREADY IN THE CCRs. Hell, the "modified 13/13" blurb in the rules even specifically points to the NASA CCR for guidance on fault and penalties! It's also done on a "sliding scale" which doesnt mean 13 months either. It could be any amount of time. The whole point of this debate is that the "modified 13/13" is ALREADY in the NASA CCR as currently written in the GTS Rules.

 

Really IRKS me to read posts of those who say "KEEP IT!!!", but they dont even bother to read the dang rules to see what it says.

 

 

 

While it may IRK you, the proposal at the head of this thread is:Eliminate the 13/13 rule! I was clear that I want to retain the rule for the reasons given... Whether you like my response or not, my view is that it will help grow the series out here.

 

-CHuck

[jcrist]

Is there noting in the 13/13 rule that is in addition to the CCR's? Nothing? Not even direction for penalties even if it's just variable month deal? If there is anything different, I think it's good to keep it for what I think it was intended for - encourage folks with expensive cars to come out and race because this rule goes somewhat beyond the base rules. If it does nothing, then why even ask? If it's not being enforced, that's a personal problem.

When I was considering NASA in addition to BMW, I was told it's much more "bang 'em up". Lots of local guys said that was ridiculous. They were wrong. But I love it here and will race primarily in NASA next year.

[Eric W.]

 

While it may IRK you, the proposal at the head of this thread is:Eliminate the 13/13 rule! I was clear that I want to retain the rule for the reasons given... Whether you like my response or not, my view is that it will help grow the series out here.

 

-CHuck

 

Chuck, once again, you havent read what I wrote. This isnt BMWCCA 13/13 or PCA 13/13. Have you READ the GTS 13/13 blurb???

 

I can understand if you want to retain a rule similar to BMWCCA 13/13, and a rule similar to that would help grow the series out there, but therein lies the problem. The current GTS Modified 13/13 is nowhere NEAR that. Hence the call to eliminate it since it duplicates what NASA already has.

 

If your goal is to have it be more like BMWCCA's 13/13, then your post should reflect that you want to clarify the current GTS 13/13. Otherwise, just saying "KEEP IT" doesnt do anything at all. Keeping what? a redundant set of penalties that mirror the NASA CCRs at best?

 

Seriously, everyone who keeps saying "KEEP IT", PLEASE just take 5 min. out of your time to read the rules. Then, come back and tell me you want to keep it. If you still say keep it, then that pretty much is the same as eliminating it based on the fact that similar penalties exist in the current NASA CCRs.

 

Which is my reasoning for eliminating it. As shown in this thread, it makes people assume it is the same 13/13 as BMW/PCA and then have certain expectations of such. It ISNT the same. If we wish to make it similar but a more lenient version, then it needs to be clarified.

[Scott Bove]

The purpose of a 13-13- rule is a deterant to car to car contact. Motorsports is not a contact sport. Read >>> Randy Pobst's article in November Sports Car Magazine. In ALMS you wil be brought in during a race and talked to for a while then sent back out maybe a lap down. In World Chalallenge you will be brought in during the race if it is obvious driver error (almost all contact is), and/or fined after the fact with $x,xxx plus deduction points. Pro series have TV and full time observers for these sort of things, how is NASA going to control a $10,000 GTS1 car turning into a $200,000 Porsche Cup Car. NASA cannot monitor this if what you say is true that they presently do not even have a data base nor enforce the 13-13 rule. I do not understand why this is so complicated. PCA has no problem enforcing and monitoring it. HSR has no problems either. Maybe NASA should focus on enforcemenet and have the cheif steward report the 13-13 to NASA National office. Will... you can write them in your lil black book

If NASA does away with the 13-13 rule because it is proved not to be enforced and there is no database (BTW silly reasons to do away with a good rule) then how will NASA enforce blatent car ro car contact during the last lap of a National Championship. It becomes a judgement call that will cost someone a championship.

I say we keep the 13-13 rule and create a database and enforce the rule.. That seems simple to a simple mind.

 

I am convinced that if the 13-13 rule goes GTS entries will decline (certainly the higher end cars) and car to car contact wil be accepted as normal behavior to overcome a drivers lack of talent and patience.

 

Scott Bove | GTS4 #22 | BMW E46 M3

[cstreit911]

Other than the redundancy, could one or more of the 'drop it's proponents explain to me the passion for dropping it? If its not used, why all the concern? I believe its a useful draw to our series. It is, in fact, one of the reasons I joined.

[John Cooley]

Keep the 13/13 rule. It provides the context for GTS races. It is a declaration that we will race hard and still be respectful and intelligent. That the rule is redundant, is confusing to others, is not uniformly enforced from region to region, or lacks a national database begs the question whether it serves the purpose of modifying on-track behavior. The 13/13 puts each of us at risk of extended sanction, and that risk alone should give us pause and back out of a low percentage pass. If the rule serves to cause just one racer a weekend to be smarter, more patient, or more skilled, it serves its purpose. We are amateurs, enjoying our cars and honing our race skills. The 13/13 enhances our ability to do both.

[gpeluso]

It draws but it also false advertising..............thats how you really piss someone off.

[jcrist]

Excellent thread. I think this shows the administrators that the 13/13 is a valid draw and that it needs some work. I truly think Nationals will need some work to match last years participation (which I've heard was down) due to the carnage.

[RSCoupe]

...I truly think Nationals will need some work to match last years participation (which I've heard was down) due to the carnage.

 

Down compared to what?

[Michael G.]

Keep the 13/13 rule. It provides the context for GTS races. It is a declaration that we will race hard and still be respectful and intelligent. That the rule is redundant, is confusing to others, is not uniformly enforced from region to region, or lacks a national database begs the question whether it serves the purpose of modifying on-track behavior. The 13/13 puts each of us at risk of extended sanction, and that risk alone should give us pause and back out of a low percentage pass. If the rule serves to cause just one racer a weekend to be smarter, more patient, or more skilled, it serves its purpose. We are amateurs, enjoying our cars and honing our race skills. The 13/13 enhances our ability to do both.

John,

Can you be more specific, why do you see the existing rules in the NASA CCR not sufficient or not addressing the issues of you concern. It sounds, like the current NASA CCR is too lenient or too soft, and you feel GTS needs more? If that so, where exactly 13/13 is more than the CCR?

Michael G.

NE GTS Dir.

[UKRBMW]

Well, I'm new to this but it seems that 13/13 is definitely not getting enforced. I saw the carnage at Nationals and there weren't any penalties handed out. Seems it's the same in regional races. So either we just do away with it altogether or clarify so that it can be enforced uniformly across all regions.

[Michael G.]

Unfortunately, I had to miss Nationals due to the carnage I found myself to be a victim of just prior the event, but wondering, if we actually know for sure, if any (and what kind) of penalties were given at Nationals for those who caused damages? May be Scott or J.Pantas can elaborate.

Michael G.

NE GTS Dir.

[RSCoupe]

Nationals is generally considered a stand alone event, and any penalties handed out only apply to that event, with the exception being the extreme penalties. The same sort of thing generally applies at the Regional level. Penalties given in one region do not carry over into another region, as policing it becomes an issue.

[gpeluso]

????????????????????????? Where does it say that?????????

[cfries3]

Interesting. So Nationals sees mucho carnage because it is considered an exception where the rule isn't appllied. That seems like the perfect case study for why we need the rule in general and why we need to enforce it everywhere. Especially Nationals.

[Jim P.]

My job as GTS Race Director for the Nationals would be much easier if we gave a 13 to everyone who has contact. At Mid-Ohio this past year we had sporadic isolated rain showers that would cause small areas of the track to be slippery without much prior notice. If you were a driver who suddenly encountered a slippery part of the track had a minor contact with another competitor would you feel short changed if we sent you home on a 13?

 

With the current verbage of the 13/13 rule I could deem all contact worthy of sending folks home.

[Eric W.]

sheesh, once AGAIN... everyone is seeing "13/13" and assuming. This is the whole problem.

 

As currently written in the GTS rules, "13/13" is nothing more than just the words "13/13". There is no definition at all to anything beyond the penalties listed in the NASA CCRs.

 

Chris Streit: This is why is needs to be removed (or revised). Everyone just comes in and sees 13/13 and assumes it is the same as whatever they are coming from. We write rules for people to follow and understand. So you get situations like at Nationals where everyone screams and yells that people should get "13s", but our rules dont say ANYTHING about that. It mentions NOTHING in terms of months or penalties. They specifically state that they follow the guidelines set forth by the NASA CCRs!

 

Why is it that every 3 posts I have to tell people to go look at the GTS Rules and tell me what the Modified 13/13 says. It says NOTHING with respect to what any one of you guys who are all saying "KEEP IT" assume it is!!!

 

My whole problem with the 13/13 is not whether it is in there or not, but rather the assumptions that come from it's vague and broad definitions. This whole thread is evidence to that. If our goal is to keep it, but revise it for more meat, then I am fine with that, so long as we have discretion put to the directors. 3, 6, 9, 12, 13 months on a scale using NASA CCRs as a guideline for fault.

[JSG1901]

To save everyone the trouble of finding it themselves, here is the full and complete text of the 13/13 rule in the 2011 GTS rules.

2. Modified 13/13

To promote clean and competitive driving, in addition to NASA’s rules and suggested sanctions

in the CCR, the series will use a Modified 13/13 rule for on course conduct. The intent of the

Modified 13/13 rule is to provide some degree of deterrence against casual body damage and

contact by careless drivers but without excessive penalties for normal race driving. In multiple

car incidents all relevant evidence will be used to assess fault. Sanctions for drivers found to be

at fault will be imposed by officials on a sliding scale subject to the discretion of the officials.

Drivers in single car incidents will not be subject to sanction under the Modified 13/13 rule. The

Modified 13/13 rule can also be applied to a driver whose on track conduct causes damage to

another driver’s car even if there was no physical contact between the cars. Penalty decisions

will be heard by any combination of NASA Race Directors, GTS officials, and/or Incident

Review Boards (IRB’s) which may be formed and operated per the NASA CCR.

 

GTS Modified 13/13 penalties will not be applied when an incident occurs in a mixed race group

between a GTS driver and a driver in another class. In those instances, standard NASA CCR

penalties and procedures will apply.

 

The Modified 13/13 rule can be applied post event as it is not always possible to determine fault

at the track in a timely manner. No Modified 13/13 penalty can conflict with the findings of a

NASA Race Director and penalties can vary in length subject to the discretion of GTS officials.

Regardless of the length of the penalty, no penalty is over until the driver participates in at least

one GTS class race while subject to the penalty.

A couple of points on this:

 

1) As Eric says, there is nothing in this which actually defines what a 13/13 penalty is or might be. The closest is the statement ...penalties can vary in length subject to the discretion of GTS officials....

 

2) I'm not a lawyer but when I read ...No Modified 13/13 penalty can conflict with the findings of a NASA Race Director... it, to me, says (a) you can't penalize somebody who was not penalized by the Race Director and, therefore, (b) the part which says ...Penalty decisions

will be heard by any combination of NASA Race Directors, GTS officials, and/or Incident

Review Boards (IRB’s) which may be formed and operated per the NASA CCR... is also subject to whatever the Race Director did.

 

The NASA CCR is much more specific and strict about what constitutes an infraction and the appropriate penalties therefor. I highly suggest you take some time to review that part of the rules (it's near the back) in detail as there is a lot of information packed into a small area.

[cstreit911]

Scott, good summation... hadn't really considered the implications of that....

[UKRBMW]

One more thought - if you take out the Nationals, it appears most of the contact is not between GTS cars, but rather GTS and cars from other classes. Correct me if I'm wrong, but that type of contact wouldn't even be subject to the modified 13/13 rule.

 

Anyways, it seems all the directors posting in this thread are in favor of making this go away, so this probably will go away.

[Michael G.]

Anyways, it seems all the directors posting in this thread are in favor of making this go away, so this probably will go away.

 

If it will go away, it is not because "Directors" conspiring to relax the rules, but because we feel that rules need to be clear, simple and enforceable. As it stands now in the current form, the modified 13/13 is unspecific, unclear and not helping us in making events safer. It seems, most of us feel enforcing the existing rules of NASA CCR is more practical and efficient.

 

Michael G.

NE GTS Dir.

[UKRBMW]

Michael - there is no need to assume any conspiracies. However, it is the "Directors" that ultimately make the decision - right? So if all are on board with this and take a vote than it is the "Directors" that made the decision. I don't think there are going to be voting boxes at the 1st race in each region for GTS racers to submit ballots?

 

Anyways, I'm not starting a fight, simply agreeing that if it can't be enforced and all directors are supporting making it go way it will likely go away.

[kbrew8991]

as an outsider looking in, one of the unique things that does seem very attractive about the GTS series is the general attitude that contact, however light or accidental, is in general not welcome. This 13/13 rule does help present that image. But I can also see from it's wording that it really isn't an effective rule at the moment. It would seem that to retain the positive parts of it - contact isn't welcome - would help out the series and would be a good thing. The right route to take? Not sure. And it doesn't affect me yet until I happen to build or buy a GTS car anyway. So take that all with a grain of salt if you wish.