2012 RULES PROPOSAL 2: All-wheel drive cars

[RMueller]

In the northeast we have a simple solution. We install a black box to measure HP in your car while you are driving. I installs in minutes and is plus or minus 2 percent. We allow you 4 percent leeway. No need for a four wheel dyno. That is old technology.

 

Can you please point to where, in the current GTS rules, it stipulates that data acquisition systems(black box) will be used as a means of measuring HP or to be used for enforcement?

 

Randy,

We actually had a paragraph added last year to the NE Regional Rules, applied not just to GTS, but all HP to weight ratio classes, outlining the use of the BB for compliance. At this point, we still accumulating data and reserve it mainly for finding cars with big differences to claimed numbers to look at closer or to send to the Dyno. We didn't enforce and DQed anyone solely based on the data from BB yet, but hoping to make it work in the future with the help from Traqmate folks. As I know, SE has more data and experience in using those much longer then us. But we do run into issues when drivers from out of the NE come to visit, since there is no National standard set yet. It is work in progress. I hope one day we will be able to utilize data systems for policing and compliance.

Michael G.

NE GTS Dir.

 

Michael,

 

You can’t just do that. The thought of different regions having different rules and enforcement methods is ludicrous. I can’t see how NASA National and/or NASA GTS is allowing this.

[Michael G.]

Randy,

 

I think there is a little misunderstanding here. Regions allowed (and they do have) their local additions/interpretations/variations of the Rules. If you check the NE site, you will find the NE addendum. Whether it makes everyone happy - that is another story. Regarding boxes - we have very limited availability of Dyno at the tracks if any, and have no ability to police or enforce the Rules. Once we learned that SE guys are using Traqmates for compliance, we volunteered to be another Region to attempt to utilize the system, which primarily included data collection, comparing and learning if that works. Initially, we were spot on and very encouraged by the results (at which point Regional leadership decided to add the paragraph to the local Rules). Later we run into few issues in interpretation, most likely due to the difficulty to find a good spot at certain tracks). The bottom line, we need more time to learn how we can use it, in addition to the fact that the software needs to be improved and streamlined to allow automated analysis and minimize human factor.

I am not sure if the paragraph on BB will remain for the next year, and myself, would prefer it to be removed until we are ready to use it properly. The reality is, that even though it was posted in the local Rules (IMO prematurely), no driver was DQed based on the data collected. At this point, it just gives us a good sense on who is playing by the rules. It may be a very different story a year from now, if will find that Boxes are very reliable and improved in analysis. At that point, even if Nationals oppose, I wouldn't be surprised if NE Region will decide to utilize it locally, as the SE guys doing for the last few years.

 

Michael G.

[RMueller]

I have been working with data for driver and engine development for years and have a good grasp on it and its capabilities. I don’t see the need to present the long laundry list of reasons why it is probably not a good idea to use it for enforcement here, I can save that for another topic.

 

The part I find concerning is:

Regions allowed (and they do have) their local additions/interpretations/variations of the Rules.

 

Maybe I am missing something in the GTS rules. Is there more to the GTS rules than is listed here?

 

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=nasa%20gts%20rules&source=web&cd=1&sqi=2&ved=0CBoQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nasagts.com%2F&ei=vfy6To76K8vsggfZsZXOCA&usg=AFQjCNF0EjxAY78Dy08Ets1tmZE-3WWqwg

 

Where in the GTS Rules does it give regions the right to make or change the rules regionally?

[cstreit911]

In the northeast we have a simple solution. We install a black box to measure HP in your car while you are driving. I installs in minutes and is plus or minus 2 percent. We allow you 4 percent leeway. No need for a four wheel dyno. That is old technology.

 

Can you please point to where, in the current GTS rules, it stipulates that data acquisition systems(black box) will be used as a means of measuring HP or to be used for enforcement?

 

It's not... Yet. This is something that is being looked at. With the advent of cheap and easy ECU solutions, we all know that a compliance check independant of the driver is a must have for our future. Right now the only thing keeping people from cheating is their integrity. Which fortunately most GTS participants have. However were someone to really make an effort at getting away with it, a dyno is not going to catch them.

[sperkins]

We have since changed staff and procedures and now get excellent data immediately.

Jim - Let's try to put one in my car this weekend. I'd love to see the data. I have recent dyno's to use for comparison.

[sperkins]

AWD cars haven't been an issue in PT or ST thus far.

We've been whining about it for months.

[kbrew8991]

AWD cars haven't been an issue in PT or ST thus far.

We've been whining about it for months.

whining about it and it being an actual problem isn't the same thing

 

fwiw I am very much on board with *everyone* in the same class being measured by the same stick so to speak. AWD cars don't get to use a separate set of scales, dyno should be no different.

[Scott Bove]

Im OK with AWD in GTS with one understanding. If a dyno will be used on 2WD cars at an event then there must be a AWD dyno. If there is a 2WD dyno at an event and no AWD dyno then the AWD drive car wil not race for points or a podium. Same for the NASA Championships. Let AWD cars run un checked but they wil be DQd. If that is understood going into it then the AWD driver should not be upset. At least it gives teh AWD a place to race adn NASA gets an entry fee. Afer all we are all racing for fun right?

[sperkins]

If a dyno will be used on 2WD cars at an event then there must be a AWD dyno.

Keep dreaming.

 

Same for the NASA Championships.

All the AWD drivers had ample notice this year that they would not be dyno'd at nationals.

[bmwjoon]

"AWD cars should declare if they are cheating prior to the begining of the race"

 

J/K of course. I'm not super familiar with the portability of different types of dyno's. Is it that difficult to get AWD dyno's to the track?

[520]

Ah, I hope this propsed ban doesn't actually become true. I am hoping to join GTS next year in my quattro.

 

Yes, people can cheat, but honestly even a 2wd car can easily cheat a flip of a switch between the checker and the impound. I'd have no problem carrying BB as long as everyone else is in the same boat - if BB reads 15% less, no big deal, it will read the same for others.

 

I'm about to cage off my car and I certainly would not do this unless I knew I can compete in GTS or PTx. For TT, my roll bar is sufficient for me.

 

With regards to that video posted earlier - are you 100% your car wasn't down on power, or that the car in front doesn't have lower gears or something else?

 

$.02

[ddg]

Ah, I hope this propsed ban doesn't actually become true. I am hoping to join GTS next year in my quattro.

 

To bad you're not on the west coast, I just bought an '84 4000q with a stripped interior and a new cage, I was planning on running it in GTS with a 5000turbo engine in it. I've got a ton of mod info the 90 front end, I'm currently running that in my '84 coupe.