2012 rule change proposals NEW THREAD

[Vinny]

Again its not just my miata...if you can make it through the 66 pages of jibberish on the last thread..there was quite a few corvette, mustang, bmw guys too that i remember.

 

I put another set of oem one's on and havnt had the issue again yet....but would sure suck to have one disconnect and get impounded.

[Rob S.]

Ok....one of the proposals is to add sway bar end links to free mod list. Let's move on otherwise this thread will end up like the other one.

 

Again there will be separate threads for individual proposals for discussion.

[Rob S.]

So far after weeding through the....

 

 

1.) Add note, "Hoosier 255/35ZR18 (A6 & R6) to be treated as 275mm tire for points", to "TIRES" section

 

2.) Add aftermarket ECU to free mod list (with OEM ECU re-flash)

 

3.) "Power" used for compliance testing shall be defined as one of the below formulas:

 

a) Power = whp (cars with higher horsepower than torque)

 

OR,

 

b) Power = (whp + wtorque) / 2 (cars with higher torque than horsepower)

 

4.) Add sway bar end links to free mod list

 

5.) Lower or remove +2pts for street tires

 

6.) Consider adding a modification line in the drivetrain section for these newer optional equipment “flappy-paddle” type transmissions when run in an as-delievered configuration (or separate the car listings between normal trans & fancy trans)

 

7.) Consider an additional factor when doing a custom base reclassification for motorswap, aftermarket forced induction, etc. – the ability to shape the power curve and/or create a flat horsepower line with said modifications. This would be superior to automatically assessing peak torque which may or may not occur outside of the car's usable powerband on track. Might be a tough one, but possibly we could add one more item for people to send in and one item for us as directors to check in the field – the general type of engine (rotary, 4cyl, V8, etc – not necessarily the specific engine) and power adder (turbo, supercharger, both, or none) they plan to run with.

 

8.) Remove Inverted strut +1pt from Suspension section

 

9.) More of a general request than something specific - Is there a way we can get some lines added to the Aero Points Mod sections that we can use to charge less points for some of these OEM optional equipment bumpers, side skirts, and wing type stuff?

 

10.) Reconsider rewording F.4 (chassis stiffening/subframe brace/etc) so that a subframe brace that does not connect more than 2 points does not apply.

 

11.) -0.2 for front tires 245 or smaller and -0.4 for rear tires 275 or smaller (same)

 

12.) Remove the "multipliers" for TTA-TTF. I think the layout of a car (coupe, sedan, etc) and drivetrain (FWD, AWD, RWD) is already considered in the initial base class.

 

13.) Start tires sizes at 295 for TTA and drop 10mm per class with TTF getting 245

Edited November 15, 2011 by Guest

[TurboShortBus]

2.) Add aftermarket ECU to free mod list (with OEM ECU re-flash)

Awesome! Motec M880 with traction control for +0 points! Hell, I'd be willing to keep my OEM sway bar end links for that!

 

I hope that you sent your list to Greg in email format.

 

Mark

[Rob S.]

2.) Add aftermarket ECU to free mod list (with OEM ECU re-flash)

Awesome! Motec M880 with traction control for +0 points! Hell, I'd be willing to keep my OEM sway bar end links for that!

 

Sorry.....added traction control is still +3pts under Drivetrain. Newer cars have it standard and with a re-flash the T/C can be optimized.

 

 

I hope that you sent your list to Greg in email format.

 

Once the list is finalized it will be.

[TurboShortBus]

Sorry.....added traction control is still +3pts under Drivetrain. Newer cars have it standard and with a re-flash the T/C can be optimized. :wink

Good luck proving that it's activated in my program! "That audible miss when I'm coming out of corners? Ah, that's the, uh, fuel pickup..."

 

Mark

[Rob S.]

Sorry.....added traction control is still +3pts under Drivetrain. Newer cars have it standard and with a re-flash the T/C can be optimized. :wink

Good luck proving that it's activated in my program! "That audible miss when I'm coming out of corners? Ah, that's the, uh, fuel pickup..."

 

Mark

 

That's OK cause I use the anti-lag in my aftermarket ECU to aid in the blown diffuser; similar noise!

[nasa ser]

I don't agree with #12 on that list, no need for that change.

 

On a side note, no one with a front wheel drive strut car would ever propose the change you suggest

[Varkwso]

I say merge 'em at this point...

Exactly. We can easily hit 100.

 

Does seem like more of the same.

[Varkwso]

Out of that list I only think 4,5 & 8 are worth discussing.

 

They are general issues.

 

I still would prefer tires sizes start at 295 for TTA and drop 10mm per class with TTF getting 245. The buyback points will be huge for the smaller cars and the bigger cars can run enough tire to carry their heft.

 

This gives points for street tire width or whatever you can fit in combo points.

[jason]

I say merge 'em at this point...

Exactly. We can easily hit 100.

 

Does seem like more of the same.

Definitely needs merged.

[Rob S.]

I'm going to change proposal 4.) from "Add sway bar end links to free mod list" to "Add sway bar end links to free mod list or separate sway bars and end links; ie +1 sway bars and +1 end links". Aftermarket end links are a "performance improvement" since the rubber bushings are replaced with stiffer, adjustable heim joints.

[cucamelsmd15]

Aftermarket end links are a "performance improvement" since the rubber bushings are replaced with stiffer, adjustable heim joints.

 

Really?

[Rob S.]

Aftermarket end links are a "performance improvement" since the rubber bushings are replaced with stiffer, adjustable heim joints.

 

Really?

 

I agree....but if you make them free people will be able to use heim joints and most will. Plus those are still stiffer than stock and adjustable.

 

Are you saying the performance and durability improvement of those aren't worth +1?

[jimbow]

Out of that list I only think 4,5 & 8 are worth discussing.

 

They are general issues.

 

I still would prefer tires sizes start at 295 for TTA and drop 10mm per class with TTF getting 245. The buyback points will be huge for the smaller cars and the bigger cars can run enough tire to carry their heft.

 

This gives points for street tire width or whatever you can fit in combo points.

 

I agree - I haven't broken an end-link yet, and I would be covered to add aftermarket end links since I take points for my sway bars. However looking at lots of cars its a wonder those OEM end links don't break even on the street.

Inverting shocks would give me a few more options for replacements without having to take the invert point.

 

I also like the tire size change Jeff is reccomending - it would be a positive change for most everyone.

[cucamelsmd15]

 

I agree....but if you make them free people will be able to use heim joints and most will. Plus those are still stiffer than stock and adjustable.

 

Are you saying the performance and durability improvement of those aren't worth +1?

 

Ok, and? What performance improvement? You mean, not having my stock end links break when they contact the upper A-arm? Thats quite a way to define "performance improvement". Oh wait, thats now a modification because the swaybar is now unhooked. Durability improvement? Right. I could just as easily eliminate ~1" of the rod on the stock link and make those work too, and they would be just as durable. You going to charge +1 for putting urethane or delrin bushings in stock links because they are stiffer too?

 

Sorry, having swaybars +1 and endlinks +1 is the equivalent of having Hoosier radial slicks be +10 along with +10 Hoosier R6's.

[Rob S.]

Added proposal:

 

13.) Start tires sizes at 295 for TTA and drop 10mm per class with TTF getting 245

[Rob S.]

 

I agree....but if you make them free people will be able to use heim joints and most will. Plus those are still stiffer than stock and adjustable.

 

Are you saying the performance and durability improvement of those aren't worth +1?

 

Ok, and? What performance improvement? You mean, not having my stock end links break when they contact the upper A-arm? Thats quite a way to define "performance improvement". Oh wait, thats now a modification because the swaybar is now unhooked. Durability improvement? Right. I could just as easily eliminate ~1" of the rod on the stock link and make those work too, and they would be just as durable. You going to charge +1 for putting urethane or delrin bushings in stock links because they are stiffer too?

 

Sorry, having swaybars +1 and endlinks +1 is the equivalent of having Hoosier radial slicks be +10 along with +10 Hoosier R6's.

 

I was just offering another option is case Greg shot down adding them to the free mods list. Should I remove the option? Doesn't matter to me.....I already take +2 for sway bars so I have shiny heim joints!

 

Let me know.

[cucamelsmd15]

I think the overwhelming majority agree, they should be free.

[Rob S.]

I think the overwhelming majority agree, they should be free.

 

No prob......option removed.

[Rob S.]

Current list.

 

 

1.) Add note, "Hoosier 255/35ZR18 (A6 & R6) to be treated as 275mm tire for points", to "TIRES" section

 

2.) Add aftermarket ECU to free mod list (with OEM ECU re-flash)

 

3.) "Power" used for compliance testing shall be defined as one of the below formulas:

 

a) Power = whp (cars with higher horsepower than torque)

 

OR,

 

b) Power = (whp + wtorque) / 2 (cars with higher torque than horsepower)

 

4.) Add sway bar end links to free mod list

 

5.) Lower or remove +2pts for street tires

 

6.) Consider adding a modification line in the drivetrain section for these newer optional equipment “flappy-paddle” type transmissions when run in an as-delievered configuration (or separate the car listings between normal trans & fancy trans)

 

7.) Consider an additional factor when doing a custom base reclassification for motorswap, aftermarket forced induction, etc. – the ability to shape the power curve and/or create a flat horsepower line with said modifications. This would be superior to automatically assessing peak torque which may or may not occur outside of the car's usable powerband on track. Might be a tough one, but possibly we could add one more item for people to send in and one item for us as directors to check in the field – the general type of engine (rotary, 4cyl, V8, etc – not necessarily the specific engine) and power adder (turbo, supercharger, both, or none) they plan to run with.

 

8.) Remove Inverted strut +1pt from Suspension section

 

9.) More of a general request than something specific - Is there a way we can get some lines added to the Aero Points Mod sections that we can use to charge less points for some of these OEM optional equipment bumpers, side skirts, and wing type stuff?

 

10.) Reconsider rewording F.4 (chassis stiffening/subframe brace/etc) so that a subframe brace that does not connect more than 2 points does not apply.

 

11.) -0.2 for front tires 245 or smaller and -0.4 for rear tires 275 or smaller (same)

 

12.) Remove the "multipliers" for TTA-TTF. I think the layout of a car (coupe, sedan, etc) and drivetrain (FWD, AWD, RWD) is already considered in the initial base class.

 

13.) Start tires sizes at 295 for TTA and drop 10mm per class with TTF getting 245

[TurboShortBus]

You mean, not having my stock end links break when they contact the upper A-arm?

Repeat:

Miatas (and other cars, where applicable) probably should not be lowered to the point that the swaybars hit other suspension parts, which could cause the end links to fail. IMO, that "safety problem" began in the garage.

Again, IMO, if you modify your car to the point that parts start hitting other parts and breaking, while you deem your own car to be unsafe, then you might want to start thinking about un-modifying your car to eliminate the hazardous condition that you have introduced.

 

There is a record-holding TTD Miata down here that is running his OEM sway bars and end links without issues.

 

Mark

[cucamelsmd15]

You mean, not having my stock end links break when they contact the upper A-arm?

Repeat:

Miatas (and other cars, where applicable) probably should not be lowered to the point that the swaybars hit other suspension parts, which could cause the end links to fail. IMO, that "safety problem" began in the garage.

Again, IMO, if you modify your car to the point that parts start hitting other parts and breaking, while you deem your own car to be unsafe, then you might want to start thinking about un-modifying your car to eliminate the hazardous condition that you have introduced.

 

There is a record-holding TTD Miata down here that is running his OEM sway bars and end links without issues.

 

Mark

 

Sure thing, why dont you tell the ES autocross crowd that they need to unmod their stock suspension that has the same issue.

[bossman429]

7.) More of a general request than something specific - Is there a way we can get some lines added to the Aero Points Mod sections that we can use to charge less points for some of these OEM optional equipment bumpers, side skirts, and wing type stuff?

 

 

I totally agree. I have an 03/04 cobra bumper on my car, so I can use the round fog lights more easily for brake ducts (free mod), than the GT bumper, also it looks cooler.

Likewise I have side skirts which are saleen and strictly aesthetic, no way do either of these enhance the performance of the car, yet I have to take 5 points for this!

 

We have points for splitters wings, and diffusers, those are the only things that are going to add to performance.

[clydesdale]

7.) More of a general request than something specific - Is there a way we can get some lines added to the Aero Points Mod sections that we can use to charge less points for some of these OEM optional equipment bumpers, side skirts, and wing type stuff?

 

 

I totally agree. I have an 03/04 cobra bumper on my car, so I can use the round fog lights more easily for brake ducts (free mod), than the GT bumper, also it looks cooler.

Likewise I have side skirts which are saleen and strictly aesthetic, no way do either of these enhance the performance of the car, yet I have to take 5 points for this!

 

We have points for splitters wings, and diffusers, those are the only things that are going to add to performance.

 

The problem is enforcement. I imagine that the TT Directors have better things to do than to argue with you about whether your cool looking mods are performance based or not. How exactly would you prove that they don't enhance performance?

 

One aero rule change which would be fair in my opinion is allowing a wing delete for no points. Unless the drag factor was figured into the base model classing it is a pretty meaningless points requirement. It is also easily enforced.