Remedial Downshifting

[n80]

I recently did my first HPDE. It was at Carolina Motorsports Park and I had a great time. It took me a better part of the weekend to sort of figure what I was doing out there. I think I got my braking points, turn in points and general line down okay but I was still floundering around a bit ( okay a lot, actually) with downshifting.

 

I think it is safe to say that heel-and-toe is probably out of the question for the foreseeable future. So I'm assuming my goal is to try to rev match and do the best that I can. So I guess what I'm trying to sort out is the timing of it all. And I think that is mostly how I was getting it wrong.

 

Without doing heel-and-toe there is a point in the braking when I have to take my foot off the brake if I want to rev match (assuming that rev matching is important.) This is going to extend the distance I need to allow for braking and I guess there is just no way around that.

 

But when is it best to actually let the clutch back out? Do you want to let it out early and then complete the rest of your braking or do you want to get all the braking done and then let the clutch out just before turning in?

 

Or is rev matching even critical? In other words can you just brake to the point where wheel speed and engine speed are close enough to just let the clutch out without up-reving?

 

Or does it all depend on the specific turn and your speed approaching the turn.

 

Any help greatly appreciated.

[kbrew8991]

work on H&T and get it down pat on the street, then work on it on track

 

with ABS, depending on how good the system is, you can get away without rev-matching your downshifts during braking if you're smooth with the clutch. But real actual H&T is still going to be better.

[DWNSHFT]

Learn H&T on the street; there are many opportunities to practice. Having said that...

 

Before I learned to H&T (lo these many years ago) I would simply let the clutch out super slow. That will basically eliminate driveline shock.

 

 

David

[n80]

Thanks guys, I'll work on H&T but I am pretty uncoordinated. I had to hold my breath while typing this.

[jimbow]

Thanks guys, I'll work on H&T but I am pretty uncoordinated. I had to hold my breath while typing this.

 

Continue to practice heel and toe on the street. When you get it down then move to using it on track.

 

One thing to make your downshifts smoother until H&T is second nature is back your braking point up 1 heartbeat.

Then get most if not all your braking done then - you have to do this step really quickly - clutch in, hand to shifter, downshift, hand on wheel, blip throttle, clutch out, turn in

 

Doing this in the middle of braking can have issues, getting all your braking done before this gets you set up beter for the turn. If I use it when my H&T is working its because its a trailbraking or left foot braking turn.

 

Its easy

 

If I blow my first lap because my H&T sucks, I'll fall back to this method until I wake up.

[beerkat]

... get most if not all your braking done then - you have to do this step really quickly - clutch in, hand to shifter, downshift, hand on wheel, blip throttle, clutch out, turn in..

 

That is the way I downshift. With my new clutch I have to work at being smoother than I did with a stock clutch. I need to get my RPM up a little more.

[cucamelsmd15]

I know everyone says to Heel-Toe on the street, but I cant do it worth a damn. On the track though, Im Ricky freakin' Bobby.

 

If you can do it on the street, thats all the better. For me, one day it just... clicked. I could do it in the WRX and in the MS3 with some effort. The Miata is absolutely effortless after I bent the gas pedal.

[kieranlavin]

Everyone insists that heel/toe is necessary... it is not.

 

I can drive just as quickly without using heel/toe as I can with it. Like everything else on the track, it's about being smooth. *MY* car, I can heel/toe near perfect time and time and time again. However, when I get into other people's cars as an instructor, no two cars are exactly like mine or alike each other. Rather than fiddle with heel/toe in the 2 or so laps I have to show the student the track, I do without.

 

You do the braking normal and you time your downshift with when you want to be getting back on the gas and you simply (and smoothly) shift to the lower gear and ease out the clutch (quickly but smoothly) and you're immediately back on the gas. It's harder to describe than it is to do. I've driven with other instructors who wouldn't be able to tell the difference that I wasn't heel/toeing because it's nice and smooth and there is no loss of RPM.

 

As an HPDE1 student, there are WAY too many other things for you to be worrying about then heel/toe. I've come across students that shifting in general was too much for them to handle and I had them just leave it in one gear to learn the track, braking, line, corner workers, etc, etc. Work on shifting another session or even another day. Same goes for heel/toe. You can work up to it but I wouldn't put as much stress on it as so many people love to put on it. No one gets it perfect from the start and it is not absolutely positively necessary like everyone seems to think.

[kbrew8991]

depends on your car, drivetrain layout, how good your ABS is (if you have it), etc.

 

I know with my current race car that I *have* to h&t the downshift or it'll lock up one of the rears and they're alot harder to get unlocked than a front. To get away with not h&t I've got to brake alot earlier, or greatly delay power application - neither of which are the way to go on a momentum car where you're applying power at or right after turn in and usually wide open just before apex.

 

Even if you can get away without doing it, it's still a good "tool" to develop if/when you're in a car that does require it.

[n80]

As an HPDE1 student, there are WAY too many other things for you to be worrying about then heel/toe. I've come across students that shifting in general was too much for them to handle and I had them just leave it in one gear to learn the track, braking, line, corner workers, etc, etc.

 

That was my situation; I was hopeless out there my first two sessions. So my instructor had me leave it in one gear. I was obviously slow coming out of the turns, but it helped immensely. I spent several more sessions getting all the other stuff figured out and then began shifting again.

 

You do the braking normal and you time your downshift with when you want to be getting back on the gas and you simply (and smoothly) shift to the lower gear and ease out the clutch (quickly but smoothly) and you're immediately back on the gas.

 

That was what I ended up doing. I tried to throw rev-matching in there too, with occasional success. This made the braking point a little harder to judge sometimes but I think that will get better with practice.

 

It's harder to describe than it is to do.

 

Right. I'm sure most folks who do this a lot never have to think about the individual steps or the timing, its just second nature.

 

Ken, I plan on working on H&T just for kicks but I swear it seems like there is too much difference in pedal height between the gas and brake on my car. And whenever I go to give the gas a stab I end up pushing the brake in too far.

 

Anyway, I appreciate all the good advice. Now I just need to find the time and money to get back out on the track.

[kbrew8991]

Don't feel bad about using aftermarket pedal covers or modifying the pedals to help your situation out if needed. The right shoes can help too.

[cucamelsmd15]

 

Right. I'm sure most folks who do this a lot never have to think about the individual steps or the timing, its just second nature.

 

Ken, I plan on working on H&T just for kicks but I swear it seems like there is too much difference in pedal height between the gas and brake on my car. And whenever I go to give the gas a stab I end up pushing the brake in too far.

 

Anyway, I appreciate all the good advice. Now I just need to find the time and money to get back out on the track.

 

This has always been my problem in a street car. Always. You can try adjusting the pedal engagement to make it work, but I never really wanted to futz with it that much.

[MikeAtl]

Much good advice, so I will add relevant info where I think I can. I am still a DE2 noob, but learning much every weekend.

 

I have an '04 G35 6MT sedan and have learned to H&T downshift. I can do a 5 to 3, a 4 to 3 and a 3 to 2 pretty well. In my car, the revs do hang a bit when I get off the gas, and that does make a difference when you blip.

 

Pick one to work on first and learn the timing. For a while, I was engaging the clutch with the revs too high and an instructor noticed and told me to wait another breath. Made a huge difference (thanks Mark Nunnally).

 

For me, I picked the 4 to 3 to work on first because it was the most natural for me, and the one that my car needed most at many places at RA at the speeds I am driving (relatively slow as I am still somewhat new at this).

 

When I apply the brake to slow, the brake pedal is at relatively the same height as the accelerator, but they are a bit far apart for me. I added a wider gas pedal from ultimate pedals. It has an extension to the left that makes it easy for the right side of my right foot to blip while maintaining steady brake pressure.

 

I am actually smoother with the downshift on the track because the speeds are high enough for it to work, but I do practice on the street all the time as best I can. My other car is a DD Civic beater and I practice on that all the time as well.

 

 

Good luck, it will come.

 

Mike

[beerkat]

... but I think that will get better with practice.

 

Now I just need to find the time and money to get back out on the track.

 

Two very important statements that hold true for most of us.

[Sterling Doc]

Everyone insists that heel/toe is necessary... it is not.

 

I can drive just as quickly without using heel/toe as I can with it. Like everything else on the track, it's about being smooth. *MY* car, I can heel/toe near perfect time and time and time again. However, when I get into other people's cars as an instructor, no two cars are exactly like mine or alike each other. Rather than fiddle with heel/toe in the 2 or so laps I have to show the student the track, I do without.

 

You do the braking normal and you time your downshift with when you want to be getting back on the gas and you simply (and smoothly) shift to the lower gear and ease out the clutch (quickly but smoothly) and you're immediately back on the gas. It's harder to describe than it is to do. I've driven with other instructors who wouldn't be able to tell the difference that I wasn't heel/toeing because it's nice and smooth and there is no loss of RPM.

 

As an HPDE1 student, there are WAY too many other things for you to be worrying about then heel/toe. I've come across students that shifting in general was too much for them to handle and I had them just leave it in one gear to learn the track, braking, line, corner workers, etc, etc. Work on shifting another session or even another day. Same goes for heel/toe. You can work up to it but I wouldn't put as much stress on it as so many people love to put on it. No one gets it perfect from the start and it is not absolutely positively necessary like everyone seems to think.

 

At an HPDE 1/2 level, it is true that there are bigger things to worry about, but ultimately, heel and toe will be faster once you've got the basics sorted out, and are balancing the car at the limits.

 

Without it, you either have to:

A. Slip the clutch to get the revs to match

B. Match revs after you are off of the brake

C. Not shift

 

Options A upsets the chassis - maybe only a little bit, but if you are truely at the limit, the car is very sensitive to this. If you are able to do this without it upsetting the car, then you could be going faster - you've left some grip on the table to "absorb" this.

Option B wastes time that you could be using to power out of a corner (make you coast)

C. Options C is just.. slow.

 

To answer the OP's question, the main thing is to wait at least long enough not to over-rev when you engage the next gear down. From there, I prefer towards the end of the corner (less torque reaction from higher revs), but it depends a lot on the corner. Sometimes the car gets light at a certain point, or you have to turn in earlier, and you have to work around that.

[ILIKETODRIVE]

My $0.02: Shoes made all the difference in the world for me.

[Steve85]

My $0.02: Shoes made all the difference in the world for me.

 

I practiced H/T in my Integra on my daily commute and got it down pretty well. Tried it with my sneakers, and wiffed on the gas pedal the first time . I still have trouble on the weekends when I try to do it without thinking about it. I should track in my dress shoes...

 

Oh and to the OP, just in case you're like I was, heel and toe doesn't necessarily mean using the heel and toe. In my cars I use left side of the right foot on the brake and roll the outside of the foot onto the gas to blip. So try a couple different ways without thinking "must use heel and toe".

 

Trying to actually use my heel and toe left me completely incapable of manipulating my foot that way and gave up on it. Then I watched a video of some rally driver rolling his foot and thought well, poopy, that's easy. That said, after several HPDEs I still don't worry about it on the track just yet.

[kbrew8991]

Oh and to the OP, just in case you're like I was, heel and toe doesn't necessarily mean using the heel and toe. In my cars I use left side of the right foot on the brake and roll the outside of the foot onto the gas to blip. So try a couple different ways without thinking "must use heel and toe".

ohhh, very good point. I'm a side of foot & side of foot person as well!

 

Its alot more about the results (smooth downsifts) than the particular method (within reason).

[MR_E]

Oh and to the OP, just in case you're like I was, heel and toe doesn't necessarily mean using the heel and toe. In my cars I use left side of the right foot on the brake and roll the outside of the foot onto the gas to blip. So try a couple different ways without thinking "must use heel and toe".

ohhh, very good point. I'm a side of foot & side of foot person as well!

 

Its alot more about the results (smooth downsifts) than the particular method (within reason).

 

This is how I do it as well. Until this method was explained to me, I never really could get the idea down in my mind. It also helped me to reposition my right foot. Normally when people drive, they put their heels together in the middle and have their toes pointing outward. I moved my right heel over so that my right foot is vertical and in line with the accelerator. When I need to brake, I leave my heel planted at the base of the accelerator and press the brake pedal with the ball of my foot. That way, if I need to downshift I can easily reach the gas with the right side of my foot.

[dans2k]

I heel toe and let the clutch out gently each time to get some engine braking

 

CMP is realy good place to practice heel toe because you have to shift and brake a lot!

[n80]

Thanks again guys.

 

Mike, I'm going to look into the Ultimate Pedal thing. It looks like a good product especially the one with the extension on the left side of the pedal.

 

And it is good to know that I'm not the only oddball tracking a Japanes luxury coupe.

 

At CMP almost all of my shifting will be between 4th and 3rd. Might get down to second in turn 14 but not often.

[08Bullitt0572]

I can give you my experience so far. Initially I was told not worry about shifting so much and concentrate on learning the line. In my 2008 Bullit Mustang with a 5-speed I did almost the entire CMP course in 3rd gear, and later starting shifting to 4th in the back straight. Now I see the need for a couple of turns to downshift to 2nd in order to exit faster, so I will work on that next time. You can rev match without heel and toe, you just need to downshift earlier before the turn , and let the clutch out slowly enough that you don't upset the car. Your downshifting should always be done before the turn-in; I have messed up heel and toe downshifts and found myself in the turn with the clutch in, which is not good.

 

My new car has a 6-speed, so I have had to re-learn the shift points. I practice heel and toe every morning going into work. As your experience level goes up, you can worry about heel and toe. Your first priority should be to drive a good line consistently.

[n80]

You can rev match without heel and toe, you just need to downshift earlier before the turn , and let the clutch out slowly enough that you don't upset the car.

 

And start braking earlier (or harder) too because there is that short distance between moving from brake to throttle that you'll coast a bit.

 

Your downshifting should always be done before the turn-in; I have messed up heel and toe downshifts and found myself in the turn with the clutch in, which is not good.

 

That is what happened whenever I started braking too late.

[MikeAtl]

George, I wound up going for all three pedals from them to keep the look consistent, but you really only need the extended gas pedal. They can make the extension any length you want, but if you make it too wide, you could conceivably hit the gas when trying only to brake on the street, so be aware. I think I went for the 1/2' extension, which is plenty for me. If you get all of the ultimate pedals, don't bother with those little black rubber inserts, most of them fall out of the clutch and brake pedals and you can't get them back in.

 

I have done a total of 6 track events with the G sedan and am quickly realizing that even though it has the sport suspension, it is very heavy, leans a bunch corners, and is generally ill suited for track speeds without suspension and probably brake mods.

 

Following the general wisdom here, I have spent money on seat time, not car mods, but am now shopping for a track car. I have decided to keep the G stock and look for something more track oriented, but that is still streetable, at least for a while.

 

Good luck on the downshifting. I also echo the left side of the right foot on the brake and rolling the right side of the right foot onto the gas to blip technique.

 

Mike

[n80]

I think I went for the 1/2' extension, which is plenty for me.

 

I emailed the guy at Ultimate and that is what he recommended and I think that is what I'll get. Practicing H&T around town I think that additional width will make a big difference. My brake and clutch are already aluminum so I'm not messing with them.

 

I have done a total of 6 track events with the G sedan and am quickly realizing that even though it has the sport suspension, it is very heavy, leans a bunch corners, and is generally ill suited for track speeds without suspension and probably brake mods.

 

I've got the coupe with the sport suspension and it is a good bit more heavily sprung than even the sport sedan. Body lean is there but not severe. Still not an ideal track car but it will have to do and I may even tansition it from daily driver to full time track car in a few years. With track pads the brakes did fine. As I get better I may push the limits on them.

 

Following the general wisdom here, I have spent money on seat time, not car mods, but am now shopping for a track car.

 

I will be taking it very slow on the mods. Probably nothing major in the next year. Hotchkis antisways might help with body roll without compromising street ride (which is already rough) and then maybe some Koni yellows. But all that's on the long range plan. Nothing for now.

 

Thanks again.