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Red Tornado

Pact: no crying just racing once rules come out for 2012....

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Red Tornado

Everyone has a soap box.

 

 

Come 2012 $hit or get off the pot. No more crying no more whinning about what could be etc.. Come out and race and lay it on the line.

 

So sick of the forum talk just lets all go race and see what plays in 2012 regardless.

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T&A Racing
Everyone has a soap box.

 

 

Come 2012 $hit or get off the pot. No more crying no more whinning about what could be etc.. Come out and race and lay it on the line.

 

So sick of the forum talk just lets all go race and see what plays in 2012 regardless.

 

I think the forums are awesome, I think it is the best way to get ideas heard and to learn new perspectives. I don't see anyone crying from where I sit. I see passion and people who really care about our series. I may not always agree, and I am sure most don't agree to me, but I will always defend their right or even obligation to participate share ideas and we need to protect against efforts to shut us up. The last time that happend a whole bunch of tea ended up in the Bay, well maybe not the last time.

 

So here is to good heathy debate and open sharing of ideas even if we won't ever agree. But heck it's just my opinion you are encourage to disagree.

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Red Tornado

I am fine with all you have said. What I will not be fine with then is people sitting and not racing next season and crying all year that its unfair.

Like the forums but don't like when thats the only time people "race".

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D Algozine
I am fine with all you have said. What I will not be fine with then is people sitting and not racing next season and crying all year that its unfair.

Like the forums but don't like when thats the only time people "race".

 

I'm going to assume that this is at least partially directed in my direction. You're the third to address my racing status. Why does that have anything to do with these discussions? Does it some how make any of my comments less accurate. The facts and the data are there if you choose to see them. I suppose we all interpret them how ever we want.

Besides, maybe I'm not racing much because I'm pissed off about what a mess AI has become the last few years, or maybe I have some personal reasons, maybe I'm waiting for parity in the class before I go spend my money and time, but I'm sure it's not important to any of these discussions. In case it matters, these are the exact same agruements I've been making for the last 4 plus years, and some go back further. BTW I'm not the only one, I just happen to be the loudest and maybe the most persistant. Look around the country, the AI brand could be doing a lot better. No, I don't mean in magazines, I mean where it really matters, on the track.

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Red Tornado

Although you may think the sun and stars and all things racing revolve around you it was actually a general comment that I just want to go race. Sorry to disappoint you.

 

As for a dead class where do you mean?? In Southeast we get 10 cars often and even in Dec race (sons bday otherwise I would be there also) we have a mix of new and old mustang, new and old Fbodies and even a challanger to boot.

 

Give the poor directors and Todd a break. I am sure they will listen and make a real good effort at making things right in the AI world.

 

Ohh and for the record the 1st car I ever raced in AI was a 1995 Firebird Formula. If I win the lottery I will build the ultimate past 3 generations mustang and fbody and see what is the best...

Do we have any recent winners??

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D Algozine
Although you may think the sun and stars and all things racing revolve around you it was actually a general comment that I just want to go race. Sorry to disappoint you.

 

As for a dead class where do you mean??

 

Ouch, ! I suppose I have as much of an ego as any competive racer, but I've been arguing the facts. Some guys have decided to make it personal, I've stayed away from that. I prefer just the opposite, nearly everyone on the board wants to tell there personal situation and how it relates. Stop. Think about the entire field, and think about any new racers, and think about what someone CAN do under the rules. Think about where the series is headed, not just how it effects you.

As usual, miss quoted. I never said the class is dead.

 

However, I do take exceptioin to, "lets just race". What a slap in the face to anyone who does't have the preferred platform. You're implying that ALL of us are just crying...... your words. Its just not that simple. That's the whole point of rules. It's about equality.

 

I've heard a lot of threats from the new Mustang guys about building something other then a new S197 to prove just how wrong we are. Why not pull the $hit off your existing car and run it ??

Dean and Steve build these cars pretty regular. They could tell there next client that they plan to put 12" brakes up front, 16" wheels and get rid of the system? How simple is that? If 14 isn't better then 13, then 12 should be equal to 13 (fuzzy math) And I think everyone agrees the FR ABS isn't an advantage, so nothing is lost there . Think of the weight savings !! Once you make these changes, let me know how your lap times compare to previous.

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Racer91m

Dave,

 

We're doing exactly what Chris wanted to avoid... We're discussing rules and creep and whoulda coulda shoulda...

Are you really suggesting that I go through the effort of custom machining my S197 spindles so that I can run brakes that are 10 years old and worse than the OEM stuff that came on the car? Then I need to hope to find a set of wheels that fit over those brakes and make track width... Does that really make sense? The other consideration for the rules creep is the fact that the factory parts are available and cheap. Your suggesting we use SCCA AS brake rules? Isn't that part of the reason AI was formed because those rules don't make sense given current technology? It would be like requiring the use of carburators also? The cost to do so is higher than what is comonly available.

 

You consistently state that everyone mis-quotes you and misunderstands you. I see that, but you've chosen to ignore a few very valid points that people have made. If I have missed your responses, I appologize because I spend more time working on my car than on the forum. One thing you seem to ignore is enforceability (if that is a word) of the rules.

 

You can't police ABS calibration so you can only allow OEM parts (unless you want to open up that can of worms and let people run Bosch). I don't care because I don't rely on it. You can outlaw ABS, but why don't you just run CMC2 if you don't want ABS?

Further to this point... You have mentioned doing away with ABS. Do you realize you are actually asking every competitor with a 2005+ Mustang to spend a bunch of extra money to do this. You're a budget concious guy, but you seem to have no problem suggesting that other competitors spend extra money to change their cars to meet your rule. An ABS upgrade (read that as new prop valve) on a 2005+ Mustang is around $200 and takes about 15 minutes of work. Going away from that is more expensive for parts and god knows how many hours of making all new brake lines. I like the easy route...

 

The same goes for controlling HP with electronic throttle. It was illegal last year, but since there is no way to police that, it was taken out of the rules for this year. I'm not doing it, but I know others are.

 

The rules haven't changed to favor the new Mustang. The rules have generally remained unchanged with some exceptions that just make sense from a cost and availability standpoint. The level of prep and driver quality has changed.

 

I agree with Chris. I just want to race. If you need help getting your car sorted, I'll actually volunteer to spend a day with you in your car. We can plan to look over your car the day before the race weekend and then work on development the following day. Since I know very little bout the older GM stuff, you may need to send me the bumpsteer curves, camber curves, damper plots, spring rates, and bar dimensions so I can get an initial baseline of the car. It would be good to know what your wheel rates are and where your damping is with rspect to those. We'll need corner weights too...

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D Algozine
Dave,

 

We're doing exactly what Chris wanted to avoid... We're discussing rules and creep and whoulda coulda shoulda...

Are you really suggesting that I go through the effort of custom machining my S197 spindles so that I can run brakes that are 10 years old and worse than the OEM stuff that came on the car? Then I need to hope to find a set of wheels that fit over those brakes and make track width... Does that really make sense? The other consideration for the rules creep is the fact that the factory parts are available and cheap. Your suggesting we use SCCA AS brake rules? Isn't that part of the reason AI was formed because those rules don't make sense given current technology? It would be like requiring the use of carburators also? The cost to do so is higher than what is comonly available.

My remarks about 12" brakes and 16" wheels were mostly sarcastic. 14" brakes and 18" wheels were one of the S197 deals. I"ve been told repeatedly, that 14" brakes (larger brakes) are of no performance advantage. So, the sarcasm is, then just use 12", and it should work geat............ I suppose sarcasm doesn't translate well.

However, you are INCORRECT. Several rule changes, starting in 07, favoring the new cars. They have all been listed several times in the last few months.

My point: There have been several threats to build an older car and continue to beat the masses, which may be the case. However, I suggest they remove a few parts and race a new Mustang with pre-2007 rules. Still may be fast, but not as fast in as in current configuration.

 

 

You can't police ABS calibration so you can only allow OEM parts (unless you want to open up that can of worms and let people run Bosch). I don't care because I don't rely on it. You can outlaw ABS, but why don't you just run CMC2 if you don't want ABS?

If it cant be inforced, (which is not true, it can be worked out) then make it all illegal. Why is the only option to allow everything? There are a few very talented builders attempting to retrofit the Z06 system on an Fbody. BTW, not easy to do. However, if it is worked out, how is anyone going to know if a module off of Pratt & Miller or an ALMS or WC car isn't used? And who is smart enough to know the difference? This is amateur racing. It needs to be fair and cost effective. You are one of few (likely the only one) making money off of this series. The rest of us are spending it. Very differenct perspective.

 

 

Further to this point... You have mentioned doing away with ABS. Do you realize you are actually asking every competitor with a 2005+ Mustang to spend a bunch of extra money to do this. You're a budget concious guy, but you seem to have no problem suggesting that other competitors spend extra money to change their cars to meet your rule. An ABS upgrade (read that as new prop valve) on a 2005+ Mustang is around $200 and takes about 15 minutes of work. Going away from that is more expensive for parts and god knows how many hours of making all new brake lines. I like the easy route...

The easy route for you. Then the rest of the cars in the class can either desgin, buy or build to keep up. Sure that makes perfect sense. Or as it has been suggested, we should just buy a new Mustang, or beter yet, leave the series. Not great for car couonts.

Besides are you talking about a Grand Am or Boss R or a street GT? Because its makes no sense for an amateur class to accomadate cars from pro classes.

A couple hundred in parts and 2-4 hours. I suck as a mechanic and I plumbed my entire brake lines in about 4 hours.

 

 

The same goes for controlling HP with electronic throttle. It was illegal last year, but since there is no way to police that, it was taken out of the rules for this year. I'm not doing it, but I know others are.

Yes, racers are programing the throttle for nearly perfect HP and TQ. So, either figure out how to stop it, or get rid of it. The notion to just throw up your arms, and say, "sorry everyone else...but we cant stop it". Is a cop out and lame.

 

 

The rules haven't changed to favor the new Mustang. The rules have generally remained unchanged with some exceptions that just make sense from a cost and availability standpoint. The level of prep and driver quality has changed.

They have changed nearly every year, since 2007 in favor on the Grand Am car. BTW in as early as 2006 there were already several S197 cars built, which were prior to the changes. It can and did happen. A large percentage were very capable and highly competitive. Nationals 2006, there were (4) legal (prior to rule mods) S197's. Despite being a brand new car, they were all very competitive.

 

 

I agree with Chris. I just want to race. If you need help getting your car sorted, I'll actually volunteer to spend a day with you in your car. We can plan to look over your car the day before the race weekend and then work on development the following day. Since I know very little bout the older GM stuff, you may need to send me the bumpsteer curves, camber curves, damper plots, spring rates, and bar dimensions so I can get an initial baseline of the car. It would be good to know what your wheel rates are and where your damping is with rspect to those. We'll need corner weights too...

Thanks

 

I feel another clink coming....those damn three letters are being discussed.........again. It has all been said, and numerous times by both sides of the fence. As Chris said, "no crying when the rules come out" .

 

Edit : and yet there is still more (see bold)

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Red Tornado

Hope everyone is happy with rules changes and now we can get to racing.

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firehawkclone
Hope everyone is happy with rules changes and now we can get to racing.

 

No were(I am) not!

 

Let's put it back to 07 rules and go racing. You don't want to spend money($300) to remove stuff, but your asking me to develope and ABS system to compete with Ford racing R&D. Seems really fair to me. And you!

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svttim
Hope everyone is happy with rules changes and now we can get to racing.

 

No were(I am) not!

 

Let's put it back to 07 rules and go racing. You don't want to spend money($300) to remove stuff, but your asking me to develope and ABS system to compete with Ford racing R&D. Seems really fair to me. And you!

 

 

And you want to vintage race, go for it

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robbodleimages

john, where are you getting the $300 from? iirc you are asking me to buy....

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marshallmosty

John,

The directors had two options.

 

1. Remove ABS from ALL cars, as there is not an easy, 100% proof positive way to differentiate the FR module from the stock S197 system.

 

2. Penalize ALL S197 ABS systems by allowing non-S197 ABS systems more power, and no ABS cars even more than that.

 

Option #2 seems the best to allow us to embrace existing technology and not force those with ABS to remove the systems.

 

 

And you are asking to revert back to 2007 rules... They allowed OEM ABS. The FR unit was then, and is still considered an OEM piece.

 

Before you blast me about FR being OEM, don't... That's another discussion for another day.

 

 

As I've said before, there is nothing "special" about the S197 platform with the exception of the ABS system (my personal opinion). We've taken care of the first iteration of adjustments to create parity between all cars. Time will tell if more adjustments are needed.

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T&A Racing

All in all the new rules are fine, but I really just can figure out how ford would make two parts that no one on the planet can tell apart. It just seems like bad business at the big picture level. Seems like that would cause Ford problems, how do they know which one they have On a car. How to they know if they have upgraded a vehical yet. Don't really care if we allow abs or not, but just don't really understand how these two parts can't be distinguish can some one from or close to Ford chime in and help me with this one. I really just want to understand it.

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robbodleimages

maybe i am totally wrong, but my understanding is that the GT500 street ABS and the FR ABS is the same part with a different tune. One for street rubber and one for racing rubber. IIRC Dean Martin recommends the GT500 ABS for Toyos because that is the proper setting for Toyo's grip level.

 

So far as I know there is no system to actually tune or change the tune in the ABS module and therefore two parts are required. If I am wrong, someone will tell me.

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T&A Racing

The tune can't be "read", typically these kind of things have a version or build number embedded in the program that is simple to display. Not sure what the interface is but most things via the odd ii port can be versioned. Again how would ford know which tune it had. Seems like they would really need to know from time to time.

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T&A Racing

http://www.autoenginuity.com/Ford-All-Systems-List.html#AntiLockBrake_sensors

 

It would appear that many prams related to the abs programming can be read, ford must be able to tell us how to determine which program it has, even if they just give us a couple of Parms to check for. Specific values.

 

Again I don't care I just keep reading it can't be done, and frankly I am skeptical since it just wouldn't make sense for ford to have it that way, it is just not logical.

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marshallmosty

Okay, let me clarify my statement...

 

The typical tech guy in the NASA tech shed has no way to figure out the difference between a stock S197 module and the FR module. I'm 99.99999% sure Ford could figure it out, given the proper equipment.

 

One other problem is the label on the ABS module will wipe away if it comes in contact with brake fluid. Pretty dumb on Ford's part to put a brake fluid sensitive thermal ink (or whatever) next to six brake fluid filled lines.

 

Regarding the FR500 versus the GT500 modules, I can certainly do that testing in about 3 weeks. I'm almost done retrofitting the FR system in my FOX and currently have the FR500S module attached. But I do happen to also have a brand new, never been used GT500 module that would easily be swapped...

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T&A Racing

Thanks that makes a lot more sense, funny on the label ink thing. Frankly sounds like a solvable problem. I am sure back in the day knowing the exact weight of a car coming off track was big issue, now we have computerized scales that we can take to any track. So it seems that this is a problem that we will have to solve as more and more technology finds its way into our cars. If we are going to modernize the rules, then we might just have to modernize the tech shed as well. Maybe we could get Ford as part of their sponsorship deal with NASA to donate one setup that could be used at nationals. So we could at least start to know who was running what even though both are currently legal. We should at least ask them what could it hurt if we haven't already. Just my two cents, keep us informed on the abs for the fox project would love to hear how that works out.

 

Thanks

Mark

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rpoz27
Okay, let me clarify my statement...

 

The typical tech guy in the NASA tech shed has no way to figure out the difference between a stock S197 module and the FR module. I'm 99.99999% sure Ford could figure it out, given the proper equipment.

 

One other problem is the label on the ABS module will wipe away if it comes in contact with brake fluid. Pretty dumb on Ford's part to put a brake fluid sensitive thermal ink (or whatever) next to six brake fluid filled lines.

 

Regarding the FR500 versus the GT500 modules, I can certainly do that testing in about 3 weeks. I'm almost done retrofitting the FR system in my FOX and currently have the FR500S module attached. But I do happen to also have a brand new, never been used GT500 module that would easily be swapped...

 

In the interest of parity...please be sure to provide full, detailed documentation of how you get it to work. Maybe you could even build a harness and line kit for it so we can order it out of a catalog just like the S197's? Installing the SN95 system in a fox was well documented. Maybe you could do the same for this system? now get back to the shop and finish it!

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marshallmosty

Misty,

I will provide as much as I can. I've used Jay Andrew as a crutch on the initial development, but he is using different calipers. The install so far has been pretty easy. I'm using AutoZone double flare lines (3/8" line) with 12mm adaptors for 4 of the six Lines going into the HCU. The other 2 are standard 3/8" lines. I cut the old lines from the SN95 system and will reuse all five existing lines and splice together with standard single flare unions. I just have to re-run a sixth line (2nd rear line). The wheel speed sensors mount in the same provisions from the SN95 system, but they need to be reclocked. For the rears, you have to pull the axles and drill the caliper mounts on a drill press. The front spindles can be drilled and tapped on the car. I went for approx 0.015" gap between the excitor ring and the sensor. The S197 sensors are the same length as the SN95 and use the same connectors, so that part was a snap. I still need to wire the main HCU plug (sourced from a junk yard for $40). I have about 10 hours in the conversion and expect to be done in another 10.

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D Algozine
Misty,

I will provide as much as I can. I've used Jay Andrew as a crutch on the initial development, but he is using different calipers. The install so far has been pretty easy. I'm using AutoZone double flare lines (3/8" line) with 12mm adaptors for 4 of the six Lines going into the HCU. The other 2 are standard 3/8" lines. I cut the old lines from the SN95 system and will reuse all five existing lines and splice together with standard single flare unions. I just have to re-run a sixth line (2nd rear line). The wheel speed sensors mount in the same provisions from the SN95 system, but they need to be reclocked. For the rears, you have to pull the axles and drill the caliper mounts on a drill press. The front spindles can be drilled and tapped on the car. I went for approx 0.015" gap between the excitor ring and the sensor. The S197 sensors are the same length as the SN95 and use the same connectors, so that part was a snap. I still need to wire the main HCU plug (sourced from a junk yard for $40). I have about 10 hours in the conversion and expect to be done in another 10.

 

Wow, this is far more involved then I thought. Based on previous discussions from others on this forum, I was led to believe this was a fairly simple and inexpensive bolt on process.

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marshallmosty
Misty,

I will provide as much as I can. I've used Jay Andrew as a crutch on the initial development, but he is using different calipers. The install so far has been pretty easy. I'm using AutoZone double flare lines (3/8" line) with 12mm adaptors for 4 of the six Lines going into the HCU. The other 2 are standard 3/8" lines. I cut the old lines from the SN95 system and will reuse all five existing lines and splice together with standard single flare unions. I just have to re-run a sixth line (2nd rear line). The wheel speed sensors mount in the same provisions from the SN95 system, but they need to be reclocked. For the rears, you have to pull the axles and drill the caliper mounts on a drill press. The front spindles can be drilled and tapped on the car. I went for approx 0.015" gap between the excitor ring and the sensor. The S197 sensors are the same length as the SN95 and use the same connectors, so that part was a snap. I still need to wire the main HCU plug (sourced from a junk yard for $40). I have about 10 hours in the conversion and expect to be done in another 10.

 

Wow, this is far more involved then I thought. Based on previous discussions from others on this forum, I was led to believe this was a fairly simple and inexpensive bolt on process.

 

 

Dave,

For me, 20 hours of fab time is easy. None of this is super difficult, but does take some effort to lay out and execute. But I'm a guy that likes to do this crap... call me crazy.

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Red Tornado

Mine is a stock GT abs and when looking it appears the master cylinder is larger for Ford Racing and GT500 abs.

 

I am no expert though so I am sure someone knows exact differences by sight.

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stevepoe

at 9.1 I will be pulling the abs for the extra 25-30 hp . I will be making sure though to keep the lower hp tune in my tuner so when it rains the abs will be plugged back in and hp changed back to 9.5..........

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