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Joshua

An History of NASA Florida Time Trial Records - 2011

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Joshua
How much could be gained by getting a good alignment? Mine is a bit off (camber LF -2, RF -2.7, LR -1.9, RR -2.5) and am considering getting camber arms to correct it (front -3, rear -2), are the +4pts worth it?

I don't know about the Z cars, but in a Miata, proper setup doesn't necessarily mean dramatic reductions in lap times, but it does make the car more consistent and controllable. To me, that's the main benefit of a good alignment - it makes it easier for amateurs like me to drive the car with more confidence and consistency.

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l30thelion
I don't know about the Z cars, but in a Miata, proper setup doesn't necessarily mean dramatic reductions in lap times, but it does make the car more consistent and controllable. To me, that's the main benefit of a good alignment - it makes it easier for amateurs like me to drive the car with more confidence and consistency.
Thanks for the input. It's tough at times to resist the urge to keep upgrading the car expecting huge gains. I'm hoping the control arms will "complete" the car's suspension, that and a great deal on them, is the reason I'm going to upgrade soon. But, then I won't be able to run TTD anymore w/o going back to 3370lbs/235hp

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Joshua

If I've learned anything over the past few years, it's that you shouldn't listen to most of the advice you hear about cars. The only way to really know if parts or adjustments will help you out is to try them yourself and test, test, test. Based on your results at Homestead, you've inspired me to try A6 tires at the next event. I happen to have a set sitting in the garage that I have not yet used on the track - just at the last autocross event at Fort Myers.

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BlkGt3
Moton CS was worth over 2 secs on the GT3 probably the only downside to 3/4 way shocks (besides $$$$$$$) is getting them set up properly.

Peter

I'm running DA konis and don't know what the hell I'm doing......so I leave them in the mid setting and hope for the best.

How much could be gained by getting a good alignment? Mine is a bit off (camber LF -2, RF -2.7, LR -1.9, RR -2.5) and am considering getting camber arms to correct it (front -3, rear -2), are the +4pts worth it?

 

 

Correct camber will help grip in turns allowing more speed. What Joshua said about Internet info is correct as you need to separate the wheat from all the chaff. Without long winded discussions about tire temps etc. I would shoot for -2.0 rear and -2.8 front and go from there if you want to experiment. On the M3 all I can get is -1.7 rear and feel control arms are not worth the extra 4 points. Come to TTC we need a rabbit to chase

 

Peter

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l30thelion
If I've learned anything over the past few years, it's that you shouldn't listen to most of the advice you hear about cars. The only way to really know if parts or adjustments will help you out is to try them yourself and test, test, test. Based on your results at Homestead, you've inspired me to try A6 tires at the next event. I happen to have a set sitting in the garage that I have not yet used on the track - just at the last autocross event at Fort Myers.

A6s, uh-oh! Well, it has to be done, the record must be taken back.

 

I'm learning the hard way. I spent a ton of money on the OS Giken LSD and really don't think my car needed it. The 350Z forums were full of posts w/ people saying how it is a gotta have mod. It may be that I just don't really know how to get the most out of it, either way I'm pretty sure that the money could have been better spent on other mods. On the other hand, changing the gears on the rear end made a WORLD of difference, for me that is a gotta have mod. Acceleration is insane now! It requires more shifting but is well worth it. The Ft. Myers course was a pain, I had to shift from 2nd-3rd-2nd a few times, I'm used to just staying in 2nd.

 

Correct camber will help grip in turns allowing more speed. What Joshua said about Internet info is correct as you need to separate the wheat from all the chaff. Without long winded discussions about tire temps etc. I would shoot for -2.0 rear and -2.8 front and go from there if you want to experiment. On the M3 all I can get is -1.7 rear and feel control arms are not worth the extra 4 points. Come to TTC we need a rabbit to chase

Damn, sounds like you guys really know how to setup a car, I'm sure having Ian on your team helps (saw him featured in a tech article on GRM I think). The SCCA T2 350Z folks do lots of testing, they take that sh!t seriously. The -2/-2.8 numbers is right about where the Z guys recommend, though some go up to -3.5 up front. I've heard it mentioned that the wider the tire the less neg camber required, is that true?

 

Thanks for all the advice/answers, appreciate it.

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Mrsideways
This is true, But this is what I'm looking at...

Yes the T2 car would likely slide into TTB but....

The Nismo Aero does essentially nothing... Remove that -4

The 10pt shocks can be done just as good as 3 point shocks -7

The springs are really just glorified Eibach lowering springs so you put real springs on (FASTER)

The Brakes in a TT car really do nothing so -2

Add enough spring that you don't need sway bars -2

Run a 225 tire (essentially same size as a 245... thanks hoosier) Total of 3 points in the tires

 

19points... TTC! And within a couple 10ths of a T2 car.

 

You run a 225 tire so you get an adjusted power to weight of 11.2:1 which at 3168lbs that gives you 283whp. (probably higher then what the T2 cars are making).

 

That is all fine and dandy but then he will never see 27ns in that set up. Common Ian 3 way Motons, I put those on my car and I am 1.5 seconds faster minimum.

 

 

NO WAY. That means your current setup is garbage. Chi has Single adjustable AST's on his S2000 and his car is EVERY bit as quick as mine with 10pt shocks if you factor in the weight difference. In fact when I ran my car in TTB last year (still sorting it out) The ONLY thing that made it a TTB car was the 10 pnt shocks. I could have put chi's shocks on ran the same time and lowered the TTC record.

 

Pete is saying the Moton's were 2 seconds faster on the GT3 at sebring but that's over STOCK suspension. Whats the difference between Moton single adjustable and the Moton doubles... couple 100ths of a second maybe.

 

Think about it all the triple adjustable shocks really get you is adjustment. Someone valving it right the first time essentially means you could run 3 point shocks just as good as 10pt shocks.

 

It will take time but you will start to see the SCCA cars come over. But you need to do something to attract them.

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32EVOIX
NO WAY. That means your current setup is garbage. Chi has Single adjustable AST's on his S2000 and his car is EVERY bit as quick as mine with 10pt shocks if you factor in the weight difference. In fact when I ran my car in TTB last year (still sorting it out) The ONLY thing that made it a TTB car was the 10 pnt shocks. I could have put chi's shocks on ran the same time and lowered the TTC record.

 

Why didn’t you? In fact why then did you spend the money on 10 point shocks if they are the same?

 

Pete is saying the Moton's were 2 seconds faster on the GT3 at sebring but that's over STOCK suspension. Whats the difference between Moton single adjustable and the Moton doubles... couple 100ths of a second maybe.

 

Depends who is driving!

 

Think about it all the triple adjustable shocks really get you is adjustment. Someone valving it right the first time essentially means you could run 3 point shocks just as good as 10pt shocks.

 

Oh now we are talking about re-valving the shocks, I haven’t checked the rules lately on this but is that legal without points (maybe Mark can chime in). Besides you are comparing apples and oranges now.

 

It will take time but you will start to see the SCCA cars come over. But you need to do something to attract them.

 

Like what? What does the SCCA offer that we do not?

 

 

Well you do have a point on my set up, I run Tein Mono Flex, AST's, Motons, or KW's would lower the lap times substantialy.

 

But back to the "fast" SCCA guys we keep hearing about them but they don't show up anywhere, not at local nor at National, where are these Shumachers? My father always told me get "if" out of the vocubulary, becasue it dosen't mean a hill of beans. If the Queen had balls she would be King, get them out here so they can show us all how to drive. I know I am always looking to learn.

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TurboShortBus
Oh now we are talking about re-valving the shocks, I haven’t checked the rules lately on this but is that legal without points (maybe Mark can chime in).

Here are the 2011 rules for shocks/struts in TT:

 

E1) Non-OEM shocks/struts/dampers with an external reservoir or more than two ranges of adjustment—must still take

points for springs below +10 (example: compression (bump) and both high & low rebound adjustments).

 

E2) Non-OEM shocks/struts/dampers with a “Piggy Back” external reservoir (fixed reservoir without a connecting hose) OR

with shaft diameter 40mm or greater—must still take additional points for the springs below +7

 

E3) Non-OEM or modified/re-valved shocks/struts/dampers +3 (all others) (springs not included)

You can re-valve non-OEM shocks all you want for no additional points, as long as they meet the rest of the guidelines above. Re-valving OEM shocks will rack up +3 points per E3.

 

Find some non-reservoir shocks with a 39mm diameter shaft and only 2 ranges of adjustment, re-valve them to your application, and they will only cost you +3 points.

 

Mark

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Mrsideways
NO WAY. That means your current setup is garbage. Chi has Single adjustable AST's on his S2000 and his car is EVERY bit as quick as mine with 10pt shocks if you factor in the weight difference. In fact when I ran my car in TTB last year (still sorting it out) The ONLY thing that made it a TTB car was the 10 pnt shocks. I could have put chi's shocks on ran the same time and lowered the TTC record.

 

Why didn’t you? In fact why then did you spend the money on 10 point shocks if they are the same?

 

Pete is saying the Moton's were 2 seconds faster on the GT3 at sebring but that's over STOCK suspension. Whats the difference between Moton single adjustable and the Moton doubles... couple 100ths of a second maybe.

 

Depends who is driving!

 

Think about it all the triple adjustable shocks really get you is adjustment. Someone valving it right the first time essentially means you could run 3 point shocks just as good as 10pt shocks.

 

Oh now we are talking about re-valving the shocks, I haven’t checked the rules lately on this but is that legal without points (maybe Mark can chime in). Besides you are comparing apples and oranges now.

 

It will take time but you will start to see the SCCA cars come over. But you need to do something to attract them.

 

Like what? What does the SCCA offer that we do not?

 

 

Well you do have a point on my set up, I run Tein Mono Flex, AST's, Motons, or KW's would lower the lap times substantialy.

 

But back to the "fast" SCCA guys we keep hearing about them but they don't show up anywhere, not at local nor at National, where are these Shumachers? My father always told me get "if" out of the vocubulary, becasue it dosen't mean a hill of beans. If the Queen had balls she would be King, get them out here so they can show us all how to drive. I know I am always looking to learn.

 

 

Why does the car have remote reservoir shocks?.... Cause it's built for SCCA and they have a shock rule that makes sense. Not some arbitrary rule attempting to curb costs. I never planned to campaign in with NASA in any kind of serious fashion, No competition for what the car is made to do. The SCCA Rules don't carry over very well, My splitter has to be Tiny by NASA standards yet I take the full points hit for a nearly worthless item, Same story on the Wing. Take a HUGE hit in points for not very much weight out of the vehicle. Have to run Tiny tires (per SCCA) and can't flare fenders to put big tires on for NASA. So to make the car competitive in NASA The car would no longer be SCCA legal. To keep the car built to where it needs to be in SCCA I have to run on Tiny tires with No HP compared to the NASA cars I've now bit upped into the class of.

Now I'll run it in PTA against Joesph because as a Built STU car it should run close to Joseph and James, They'll still have way more tire and way more power and way more downforce then me, But I think I can drive well enough to make it interesting. Now Nationally it's got nothing for the PTA cars so it won't go to Nationals.

Shock valving must be opened, When I ordered my Mini Shocks from AST I said I want them valved this way for this spring and this tire... Done deal I essentially had 10pt shocks for 3 pts.

 

Now Jimmy, How about this for an EVO time so you can make sense of it.

Marty Grand (current T2 National Champion in a EVO)

Same kinda mods as the 350z, Off the shelf springs, Open shocks, Open Diff rules.

In STU trim he has to slow the car down and run 8 inch wheels and a 41mm Turbo Inlet restrictor designed to keep the car under 300whp. And a Min weight of 3430lbs

Marty Did a 2:10.0 at VIR last year in the race. Oh and BTW his car is streetable, He drove it home after a race in atlanta last year.

http://www.mylaps.com/results/showrun.jsp?id=1837056&perclass=1

 

Evo all Stock except as noted.... Shocks, Diff, ecu flash.

Permacool trans. oil cooler #1006 or Setrab #SET616 and Mocal

pump # MOC-17522HT, AMS front and rear springs #AMS-SCCA01 allowed or AMS front and rear spring kit #AMS-SCCA02

including Genesis Technologies 2’’ spacer allowed. 41mm Turbo

Inlet Restrictor required. Koyo Radiator #KOY-R2676 allowed.

Alternate AMS front sway bar permitted #AMS-SCCA-SBF02,

alternate rear sway bar permitted #AMS-SCCA-SBR02

 

Nasa doesn't draw the SCCA cars out the same way Redline Time Attack doesn't draw the NASA Guys out. Redlime Time Attack came to sebring and I think I was the ONLY NASA guy down here who ran it. Jimmy, why weren't you there?

Lack of Competition in Redline?

Rules set doesn't cater to your car?

No prize money in comparison?

 

You tell me?

 

 

Or perhaps coverage like this.....

Edited by Guest

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TurboShortBus
Jimmy, why weren't you there?

 

Rules set doesn't cater to your car?

Why would anybody enter a race where the rules set didn't cater to their car? That would be the same as intentionally bringing a knife to a gun fight. I wouldn't fault somebody for skipping an event for that reason.

 

This is just another example of why cars built to X rules aren't competitive or legal in a class that runs Y rules, just like a Miata built for TTE is a lot different than a Spec Miata that runs in TTE, or a Miata built for TTD is a lot different than a Spec Miata that runs in TTD, or why a CMC Mustang would get its ass kicked in TTB. There are tons of sets of rules out there, and you cannot expect them to grant equality from class to class or club to club. Would it be convenient if they did? Of course it would, but that means that both groups would need to revise their rules a bit, or one group would have to do a serious overhaul of their rules, all of which is at the risk of offending the existing participants who don't wish to change classes/clubs or don't have the funds to radically change their cars to stay competitive and legal (while hoping that you are able to pick up new drivers, of which there is no guarantee).

 

Mark

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Mrsideways
Jimmy, why weren't you there?

 

Rules set doesn't cater to your car?

Why would anybody enter a race where the rules set didn't cater to their car? That would be the same as intentionally bringing a knife to a gun fight. I wouldn't fault somebody for skipping an event for that reason.

 

This is just another example of why cars built to X rules aren't competitive or legal in a class that runs Y rules, just like a Miata built for TTE is a lot different than a Spec Miata that runs in TTE, or a Miata built for TTD is a lot different than a Spec Miata that runs in TTD, or why a CMC Mustang would get its ass kicked in TTB. There are tons of sets of rules out there, and you cannot expect them to grant equality from class to class or club to club. Would it be convenient if they did? Of course it would, but that means that both groups would need to revise their rules a bit, or one group would have to do a serious overhaul of their rules, all of which is at the risk of offending the existing participants who don't wish to change classes/clubs or don't have the funds to radically change their cars to stay competitive and legal (while hoping that you are able to pick up new drivers, of which there is no guarantee).

 

Mark

 

Exactly, But when asked how fast can a class go... I can look at those cars and say.... Well it's essentially the same even though it doesn't match the rule set exactly I can tell you that's how fast you "SHOULD" be able to go. That is all. Some asked how fast a Z can go in TTC trim... I think pretty darn close to a Z in T2 trim.

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TurboShortBus

Bring 'em out, then. That is all.

 

Mark

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Mrsideways
Bring 'em out, then. That is all.

 

Mark

 

 

You won't get em. They live all over the country it's a long haul down here to run a regional event with minimal competition for classes the cars aren't built for. Just cause they aren't here doesn't mean the times don't exsist and you shouldn't strive to run those times.... It's like walking around pretending your the best basketball player in the world just cause someone from the NBA won't come play at your local court.

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Balroks

Jumping in just for technical sake.

 

Marty is a hell of a driver (and all around sportsman). There are modifications there you didn't list he has which makes significant improvements on lap times for the Evo which Jimmy does not have (and neither do I at this point). Also while he's got the 41mm restrictor, it allows [email protected] to tune the torque through the roof. All while on the stock engine still which we're all very proud of. And he races on A6's, i'm assuming also because the SCCA sprints are shorter as I've tried it with mixed results.

 

Also for RTA, cmon. The STREET tire Evo that won I think which was the Professional Awesome guys in the Evo7, have 550hp to the wheels with all the drivetrain goodies. The next ruleset up MODIFIED, which Gates and a few others run had 750+HP, running 2:10's in practice on NT01 tires before he had electrical issues. Don't remember what the others did that day but was fun to spectate. RTA rules just weren't worth the $ it takes to demod or to seriously mod to the RTA standard those days, even for my car which is levels above Jimmy's. However i'd bet if we put you or Jimmy in that Evo7 it woulda gained whole seconds still.

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Mrsideways

Wait Wait Wait I was there. It was a joke 90% of the cars were SLOW SLOW SLOW for the mods they had done. Favorite was the supercharged S2000 running mid 2:40's. The FASTEST car of the weekend did a 2:16 and that was done by Tony who I know from the One Lap of America. He's VERY fast.

 

As for Marty's car. Either you or Jimmy could go see AMS and tune your TQ though the roof if you want. Marty is a Great driver but isn't that what this debate is all about. SCCA Races are 45miles. A6's work but they are dead in one race.

I use to Run in Touring, The basic jest of the class is Stock, Allowed to change shocks, Allowed to change Exhaust up to(and including the CAT), Allowed to change the Diff, All other mods you MUST request an allowance, I posted the Evo's allowed Mods. And it still doesn't change the fact that the thing weights 3400lbs!!!!! running on 8 inch wide wheels. If your saying Marty has more then that your accusing him of Cheating. Read the rules.

Rules for T2

Starts on page 653.

http://scca.cdn.racersites.com/prod/Documents/2011%20Tech/2011%20GCR-printed%20version.pdf

 

These Specifications are part of the SCCA General Competition Rules

(GCR), and all classified automobiles shall conform with the requirements

of GCR Section 9 unless this Category is specifically exempted from said

requirements.

A. Purpose

Touring Category Classes are intended to provide the Membership with

the opportunity to compete in commonly-available, recently-produced

automobiles in as near the legal, street-driven form of those automobiles

as is practically and safely possible under racing circumstances.

B. Intent

Touring Category automobiles shall, at all times, be in compliance with

the specifications contained within their factory Shop/Service Manual(s)

except as modified by these rules. Factory Shop/Service Manuals may

come in the form of printed material, microfiche, CDs, DVDs and/or

Internet access to manufacturer sponsored web-based databases. It is the

responsibility of the competitor to provide the electronic device capable of

accessing the data for compliance verification.

1. The competitiveness of any car in any Class shall not be guaranteed, nor shall the continued recognition of any car in any Class.

Eligibility of cars may be discontinued at any time and for any

reason, other than that of competitive stature.

C. Specifications

The SCCA shall publish Touring Category Specifications (TCS), containing

the basic officially recognized specifications for each car eligible to

compete in the Category during the calendar year.

1. To supplement those Specifications, competitors in the Touring

Category shall be required to have in their possession a factory

Shop/Service manual or its equivalent (See TCS section 9.1.10.B)

for the specific make, model and year of the automobile entered.

This manual or its equivalent will assist in determining the originality and configuration of the automobile, and shall be presented

at Technical Inspection for every event and when otherwise so

officially requested. If the factory Shop/Service manual is not available, then the competitor shall have a copy of the official SCCA

Vehicle Technical Sheet (VTS) with them at every event and shall

present it for reference when officially requested.GCR - 654

9.1.10. Touring Category Specifications

2. The proof of legality or illegality shall rest upon the protestor and/

or protestee.

3. The Club Racing Board may classify any particular model of a

car, and may permit specific factory options for that car. Such

options shall be listed on the Specification Line for that vehicle. No

unlisted models or factory options are eligible. If no specific model

or options are listed on said line, the classified car shall be the base

model with no options. Converting a car delivered with an automatic transmission to a manual transmission is allowed as long as

all components which differ, including, but not limited to, radiator,

springs, engine management systems, final drive ratio, etc., are

converted to manual transmission specification.

a. Only those cars listed each year are eligible to compete. Additions and/or deletions of automobiles shall be at the discretion

of the SCCA.

b. “Special Performance” specifications from the manufacturer

which go beyond those listed in the Touring Specifications

book will not be considered valid. Any manufacturer determined to be supplying false specifications to competitors or

to the SCCA may be advised that said specifications may be

withdrawn or the eligibility of the car(s) involved shall be terminated. The Club Racing Board is authorized to implement these

terminations on an immediate basis without the approval of the

Board of Directors.

c. In the case of service circulars, recalls, etc., the burden of

proof of validity shall be upon the competitor.

4. To maintain the stock basis of Touring, updating and/or backdating

of components is only permitted within cars of the same make and

model as listed on a single Touring Specification Line. Interchanging

of parts between engines of varying displacements is prohibited.

a. The Club may permit substitution/replacement of certain

components or modification of some assemblies on Touring

Category automobiles. To assist in equating competition potential, not all automobiles may be permitted some or all of these

allowed substitutions and/or modifications. Any such permissions shall be listed on the Specification line for each vehicle.

b. Cars will be eligible for competition from the time they are classified until the end of the tenth calendar year of competition of

the latest model year listed on the specification line.

5. The Vehicle Identification Number (VIN) shall correspond with the

automobile classified and the automobile presented for competition. VIN stampings and/or plates shall remain in place.

a. A car may be entered in competition if there are a minimum of

two (2) VIN stampings and/or plates that correspond with the

model of automobile classified.

b. The tenth (10) position letter of the VIN determines the model

year of the car (“W” = 1998, “X” = 1999, “Y” = 2000, “1”

= 2001, “2” = 2002, “3” = 2003, etc.).

6. In order to equate competition potential, the Club may specify a

competition weight for the vehicle. Additionally, and to this same

end, it may direct that a specific amount of ballast be mounted in

the vehicle in a specific location. Refer to Section E.2. of these

Rules for additional details.GCR - 655

9.1.10. Touring Category Specifications

TCS

7. When alternate parts are approved for competitor use, the

requesting party must first provide proof that sufficient quantities

of the parts are readily available through commercial channels. The

kit must be submitted to SCCA Club Racing Technical Services for

inspection, and the kit may be returned to the sender.

D. Modifications (Configuration)

The following items represent the only modifications and safety items

permitted and/or required on Touring Category automobiles. No permitted

component or authorized modification shall additionally perform a prohibited function.

1. Engine

a. Component Modification

1. Overhaul procedures which in the slightest way could

increase performance beyond factory specifications shall

not be utilized, e.g. porting/polishing, etc.

2. Blueprinting and balancing is allowed.

3. No engine component(s) shall be modified in any manner

that is not specifically permitted or authorized by the

Factory Service Manual or legitimate Factory Technical

Bulletins.

4. “Special Performance” specifications from the manufacturer which go beyond those listed in the TCS book shall

not be considered valid.

b. Induction System

1. Air Filter(s) elements (only) may be substituted.

c. Fuel System

1. All fuel system components, settings, and specifications

shall be as specified by the manufacturer. Fuel filters may

be substituted with other fuel filters of equivalent OEM

specifications.

2. Only the fuel type specified by the Owner’s and/or Factory

Service Manual may be used. Refer to GCR Section 9.3

Fuel, for permitted fuel specifications.

3. The stock fuel tank may be replaced with a fuel cell that

is designed to mount in the OEM fuel tank location or

is specifically designed to mount in the spare tire well

provided that it is not necessary to modify any bodywork

to accomplish the installation other than for the purposes

of fastening the cell securely in place.

d. Camshaft and Valve Gear

1. All valve sizes, seat dimensions, and angles, etc., shall be

in conformance with those specifications and procedures

outlined in the Factory Service manual.

e. Block

1. Cylinder bore dimensions shall remain as originally specified by the Factory Service Manual. No “oversize” bores

shall be permitted.

f. Oiling System

1. Engine oil may be substituted with other oil of equivalent

OEM specifications. Oil additives are unrestricted.

2. Engine oil filter may be substituted with any unit meeting

OEM specifications.GCR - 656

9.1.10. Touring Category Specifications

3. An oil catch can is permitted.

4. Any oil cooler(s) is permitted.

g. Ignition/Starter/Electrical System

1. Spark plugs may be substituted.

2. The use of resistor or non-resistor-type plugs is permitted.

3. Batteries may be replaced with those of an alternate manufacturer, provided they are of similar amp-hour capacity,

size, and weight.

h. Exhaust System

1. All cars classified in Touring may replace the catalytic

converter(s) with a pipe that has the same diameter inlet

and outlet as the converter it is replacing. The post catalytic converter oxygen sensor may be disabled, replaced,

or removed; the resulting hole (if present) may be plugged.

All Touring cars may replace any part of the exhaust

system beyond the catalytic converter(s), provided:

a. Said replacement system retains the original configuration, e.g., single or dual, etc.

b. The system exits from beneath the body in the same

approximate location(s) as the original system. When

a factory (OEM) single exhaust system is cosmetically

split into dual outlets, it is permitted to continue as a

single system provided it exits in approximately the

same location as one of the originals.

c. The system meets all appropriate event-specific sound

level requirements.

i. Other Engine Components

1. Fluid hoses, their appropriate clamps, and belts (fan, alternator, etc.) may be substituted. Related clamps and hardware are unrestricted.

2. The engine management computer or ECU may be altered,

but not replaced. All modifications shall be done within

the original housing. The car may meet federal emission

standards, but shall provide OBD II compliant data to the

data link connector.

3. Cosmetic engine covers made of plastic may be removed.

4. Any power steering cooler(s) is permitted.

2. Engine, Rotary Piston

a. All permissions and restrictions in Sections D.1.a. - m. apply.

3. Cooling System

a. Radiator(s)

1. A radiator screen of one-fourth (¼) inch minimum mesh

may be added in front of the radiator. If added, it shall be

contained entirely within the bodywork of the vehicle.

2. Any radiator is permitted, provided it mounts in the original

location, maintains the same plane as the original core,

and requires no body or structural modifications to install.

No new openings created by fitting an alternate radiator

may be used to duct air to the engine.

b. Air Conditioners:GCR - 657

9.1.10. Touring Category Specifications

TCS

1. The factory and/or aftermarket air conditioning system

may be removed, provided that at least the following items

associated with the system are also removed: compressor,

condenser, H.D. springs/sway bars, H.D. shocks, larger

tires, engine and transmission coolers and cooling fans.

All duct work, wiring, Freon lines, valves, evaporators,

dryers, and dash controls may remain. If the air conditioning compressor is an integral part of the drive system,

the compressor may be retained and disabled or replaced

with an idler pulley that serves no other purpose.

2. Items that serve a dual purpose, such as an alternator/air

conditioning compressor bracket, etc., may not be substituted.

3. The gaps around the radiator that are created by the

removal of the air conditioning condenser and related

items may be sealed with foam.

4. Transmission/Final Drive

a. Transmission

1. Transmission lubricant may be substituted. Transmission

lubricant additives are unrestricted.

2. An oili catch can is permitted.

3. Any transmission cooler(s) is permitted.

b. Final Drive

1. Unless otherwise so noted on the Vehicle’s Specification

Line, the differential ratio shall be as delivered as standard

equipment by the manufacturer.

2. All legitimately classified cars in Touring Class are

permitted a limited-slip differential (Quaiffe, Torsen, etc.).

Locked differentials are not allowed.

3. Final Drive lubricant may be substituted. Final Drive lubricant additives are unrestricted.

4. An oili catch can is permitted.

5. Suspension

a. Suspension Components

1. Adjustment is permitted with a maximum negative camber

of 3 degrees.

b. Springs, Anti-Roll bar(s), and Shock Absorbers

1. Springs and anti-roll bar(s), shall remain as manufactured

unless an alternate is listed on the vehicle specification

line. Cars where air conditioning units have been removed

shall refer additionally to Section D.3.b.1., above, for additional spring requirements.

2. The make of shock absorber may be changed. Their

number, perch location(s), system of attachment, and

attachment points shall not be altered. Their type (tube

vs. lever, etc.) shall not be altered. The interchange of gas

and hydraulic shock absorbers is permitted.

a. The mounting hardware utilized shall be of the original

type.

b. The use of any shock absorber bushing material is

permitted. Note: the bushing attaching the end of the GCR - 658

9.1.10. Touring Category Specifications

strut to the body or frame on a strut-type suspension system is considered a suspension bushing, not a

shock absorber bushing.

c. The placement of the spring shall remain as stock. The

distance between the lower mounting bolt, or other

system of attachment, to the bottom of the spring as

it sits on the perch shall be the same as stock.

d. Suspension geometry and range of travel shall not be

altered.

6. Brakes

a. Components

1. The make and material of brake pads and linings may be

changed.

2. Brake fluid may be substituted with any brake fluid.

3. Brake rotor dust shields may be removed.

4. Flexible rubber brake lines may be replaced with Teflon

lined, metal braided hoses.

5. Any brake ducts are permitted, but they must serve no

other purpose and must mount without modification to

other components, but front parking light assemblies may

be removed to provide an opening for the ducts. The

ducting must not be visible from outside the car.

6. Stock replacement brake rotors may be obtained from

sources other than the manufacturer provided they are the

exact equivalent of the stock rotors.

7. Wheels and Tires

a. Wheels

1. Any type wheel suitable for competition may be used,

provided:

a. Any wheel not exceeding the specified diameter and

rim width on the vehicle’s specification line may be

used.

b. Wheels are permitted any offset provided the tire tread

(that portion of the tire that contacts the ground) does

not protrude beyond the fender opening when viewed

from the top perpendicular to the ground, unless specified differently on the individual spec line for that car.

To determine compliance the vehicle should be rolled

through a powdered substance, as raced with driver,

in order to indicate the tire tread contact patch under

static conditions.

c. Cars equipped with lug bolts may convert to wheel

studs and lug nuts.

d. Wheel studs may be replaced with longer studs as

necessary to fit optional wheels. Wheel spacers may

be used for purposes of adjusting track.

2. Hub caps and wheel trim rings shall be removed from all

wheels.

b. Tires

Unless otherwise so noted on a vehicle’s TCS line, all cars shall run GCR - 659

9.1.10. Touring Category Specifications

TCS

the tire size as listed for the vehicle in the TCS or an authorized

replacement size. When authorized replacement tires are used, the

same size tire shall be used on each axle (front tires need not be

the same size as rear tires).

Tires must conform to 9.3.45. All tires shall be offered for sale over

the counter through the manufacturer’s tire dealer network. The

brand of tire and tire pressures are unrestricted.

All cars shall run tires with a minimum of a “U” speed rating. For

size determination, the molded section shall be used. All cars are

allowed a section increase or decrease of 10mm or 20mm (e.g.,

195 may use 175, 185, 195, 205 or 215). All cars are allowed an

aspect ratio increase or decrease of 5 or 10 (e.g., 55 may use 45,

50, 60 or 65).

8. Body/Structure

a. Configuration/Modifications

1. Component Alignment: All body components shall maintain their original relationships. Gaps or openings shall not

be increased, decreased, or eliminated through realignment of components. Normally occurring gaps or seams

shall not be taped over.

2. Door Glass

a. All cars shall run with both front door windows fully

open (down).

3. Spoilers (Wings)

a. Only original equipment front spoilers, dams, and rear

spoilers and wings shall be permitted unless specified

on the vehicle specification line.

4. Other Body Components

a. Sunroofs, Targa tops, and T-tops are only permitted if

installed by the manufacturer of the vehicle. If installed

they must be retained on the vehicle, run in the closed

position, and securely bolted in place unless the operating rails adequately secure the panel. Glass panels

are permitted.

Hardtops: If a hardtop is required, it shall be the original equipment hardtop from the vehicle manufacturer

unless an alternate part number or manufactrer is

listed on the vehicle spec line.

b. Hatchback “privacy covers” shall be completely

removed.

b. Appearance

1. Cars may be painted any color(s). Markings and numbers

may be painted.

2. Vehicles shall be neat and clean, and shall not be dirty

externally or in the engine or passenger compartments.

They shall not show bodywork damage, and shall not be

presented for competition totally or partially in primer.

Cars that do not bear the prescribed identification marks,

Club Racing logos, and numbers in conformance with GCR

Section 9.3 Identification Markings, shall not be approved

for competition.

9. Driver (Passenger) Compartment (Trunk)

a. SeatingGCR - 660

9.1.10. Touring Category Specifications

1. The driver’s seat (only) shall be replaced with a onepiece bucket-type race seat. Factory seat tracks/brackets

may be modified, reinforced, and/or removed to facilitate

replacement mountings provided they perform no other

function. All other seats may be removed.

2. Rear heating/air conditioning ducts which are located

under the driver’s seat may be removed or modified to

facilitate seat installation.

b. Steering Wheel

1. Aftermarket steering wheels, and their required mounting

modifications, are permitted.

c. Gauges and Accessories

1. Water temperature, oil temperature, oil pressure, and

boost/vacuum gauges are permitted and shall be securely

mounted, and shall perform no other function other than

their primary use.

2. Interior mirror(s) may be replaced with a multi-panel type

mirror, but no such mirror shall extend beyond the confines

of the interior of the vehicle.

3. Two-way radios may be used.

4. Hand controls are permitted in those instances where the

driver can demonstrate the physical need for them.

5. Data Acquisition Systems

Stand alone data acquisition systems are allowed to

be in use in the car during practice, qualifying and race

events. These devices may be connected to the data link

connector in the car to extract available data. This must be

a one-way out connection and no calibrating or alteration

of the PCM is to be done while the car is in motion and the

system in place.

d. Interior Modifications

1. Front passenger seat, rear seat back, rear seat bottom

cushion(s), sun visors, seat belts and their attaching

hard¬ware and bracketry may be removed. In any automobile where allowed removal of rear seats, upholstery,

etc., creates an opening between the driver/passenger

compartment and an exposed gas tank, fuel cell, or part

thereof, a metal bulkhead which completely fills such

opening shall be installed (See GCR 9.3 Fuel Cell Specifications).

2. Carpets, carpet padding, center consoles, floor mats, headliners, sun roof liner and frame, dome lights, grab handles,

and their insulating, attaching or operating mechanisms

may be removed.

3. Any removable covers used to cover spare tires, tools,

bins, etc., may be removed along with attaching hardware

and bracketry.

4. Removal of radio and speaker components is permitted.

5. All other interior trim panels, except the dashboard, may

be removed. Other than to provide for the installation of

required safety equipment or other authorized modifications, no other driver/passenger compartment alterations

or gutting are permitted.GCR - 661

9.1.10. Touring Category Specifications

TCS

6. Removal of radio and speaker components is permitted.

10. Safety

a. Steering Column (Locks)

1. Steering column locks may be removed or disabled.

b. Safety Harness

1. All cars shall be equipped with a driver’s restraint system

meeting the specifications of GCR Section 9.3 Driver’s

Restraint System.

2. All cars shall have a driver’s side window safety net

complying with GCR Section 9.3 Window Safety Nets

shall be mounted in such a manner as to provide protection in the event the driver’s door opens.

3. In those cars where a window safety net cannot be

installed, arm restraints shall be used. Arm restraints are

not an acceptable substitute for window nets in any other

type of car.

c. Fire Systems (Extinguishers)

All cars shall have, as a minimum, a fire extinguisher meeting the

specifications of GCR Section 9.3 Fire System. Touring Category

automobiles may be equipped with a fire system meeting the specifications of GCR Section 9.3 Fire System.

d. Passive Restraint Systems

Passive restraint systems shall be deactivated. Air bag systems

shall be deactivated and may be removed. If the car is to be used

on public roads, we recommend that these items be reactivated/

rearmed/replaced when not in competition.

If so equipped, the rolling door lock mechanism may be deactivated

by unplugging the components.

e. Towing Eyes

Towing eyes per GCR Section 9.3 Towing Eyes, shall be fitted.

f. Electrical Master Switch

An electrical master switch may be installed.

E. Car Classification

These classifications shall be reviewed on an annual basis, and shall be

effective as of January 1. Once these classifications have been officially

published, no changes or additions shall be made after March 1 of the

calendar year.

Touring Category Classes are as follows: T1, T2, T3, and ST.

1. Weight

a. The weight, as listed on an automobile’s Specification Line,

shall be with driver and required ballast. Refer to GCR Section

9.3 Weight. If a cool suit system is utilized, it shall be weighed

with the car as it came off the track.

2. Ballast

a. Some vehicles may be required to carry specific amounts of

ballast. If such ballast is specified for an automobile, in addition

to the requirements of GCR Section 9.3 Ballast, the following

requirements shall also be met:

1. All specified ballast shall be securely mounted in the

passenger footwell of the vehicle, aft of the firewall and

any footwell angle, and forward of the passenger seat GCR - 662

9.1.10. Touring Category Specifications

unless otherwise so permitted on the vehicle’s TC Specification Line.

2. It shall be in segments no lighter than ten (10) pounds and

no heavier than fifty (50) pounds, and shall be capable of

being weighed apart from the vehicle.

3. Each segment shall be fastened with a minimum of two

(2) one-half (1/2) inch bolts and positive lock nuts of SAE

Grade 5 or better, and shall utilize large-diameter, loaddistributing washers.

4. Holes may be drilled in the passenger footwell floorpan for

purposes of mounting the ballast (only), and said floorpan

may be reinforced as required for the same purpose.

Edited by Guest

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l30thelion
You won't get em. They live all over the country it's a long haul down here to run a regional event with minimal competition for classes the cars aren't built for. Just cause they aren't here doesn't mean the times don't exsist and you shouldn't strive to run those times.... It's like walking around pretending your the best basketball player in the world just cause someone from the NBA won't come play at your local court.

When I asked the question I knew I might not like the answer....it's great to have a goal to strive for. I'm sure those T2 guys are serious drivers and know a lot more about setup than many of us.

 

Why do you prefer running SCCA? Seems the rules are written to pick winners. Aren't there cars that are given huge unfair advantages/allowences before even being on track (subaru/solstice/mustang)? At least the NASA points system is the same for all cars (ok, I know s2ks get screwed some and other cars also...system is not perfect) but in general you don't have to buy THE CAR to have for that year to have a chance. The points system allows for so many ways to skin a cat (like the Honda Sedan you mentioned).

 

If NASA had NATIONAL events throughout the year, the level of competition would be different. You can't really compare regional TT events w/ SCCA NAtional Events or event SCCA Tours/Pro Solos.

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Balroks

Ya I agree agree agree times were slow besides Gates, as Gates car had broken records at almost every track it ran because it's got a gazillion dollars in it, sucks he didn't get to post official times. Tis why I said if you or Jimmy jumped in to any of those Street or Modified cars you'd find several seconds above the guys who've never ran Sebring before. Also didn't say Marty is cheating, he's very well documented, just saying what you posted beforehand didn't have everything.

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TurboShortBus
You won't get em. They live all over the country it's a long haul down here to run a regional event with minimal competition for classes the cars aren't built for.

I have been told that there is a huge SCCA presence in the Central Florida area, so it shouldn't be to hard to find somebody to come out and play, right?

 

Mark

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Balroks
You won't get em. They live all over the country it's a long haul down here to run a regional event with minimal competition for classes the cars aren't built for. Just cause they aren't here doesn't mean the times don't exsist and you shouldn't strive to run those times.... It's like walking around pretending your the best basketball player in the world just cause someone from the NBA won't come play at your local court.

When I asked the question I knew I might not like the answer....it's great to have a goal to strive for. I'm sure those T2 guys are serious drivers and know a lot more about setup than many of us.

 

Why do you prefer running SCCA? Seems the rules are written to pick winners. Aren't there cars that are given huge unfair advantages/allowences before even being on track (subaru/solstice/mustang)? At least the NASA points system is the same for all cars (ok, I know s2ks get screwed some and other cars also...system is not perfect) but in general you don't have to buy THE CAR to have for that year to have a chance. The points system allows for so many ways to skin a cat (like the Honda Sedan you mentioned).

 

If NASA had NATIONAL events throughout the year, the level of competition would be different. You can't really compare regional TT events w/ SCCA NAtional Events or event SCCA Tours/Pro Solos.

 

Pretty much what I see as well. Several years ago it was the Evo, then GM dumped a whole bunch of cash to debut the Solstice which was half a lap ahead of people at the 09 or 08 runoffs, now Ford has stepped in an dumped a huge amount on the 302 which nobody was touching until it rained and Marty used rain tires and came from 5th to reel him in. Ford will likely dominate 2012 it's anyone's guess for 2013.

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Mrsideways

Mark, They have 250 to 300 cars show up for a Regional Race. But they are all IT cars. IT cars have NO place to play in NASA cause a FAST IT car is a mid 80's Rx7 with 150whp. Pts wise it goes to TTA they won't show up cause they've got no shot.

BTW they run low 30's with that 150whp.

At the same time an SCCA National Event brings the same number of cars here in Florida but not from the same crowd. The IT guys are given STU and STL to run it but they are so out classed they don't show. National Event draws cars from all over the country.

I like running SCCA cause I feel like a Win means more at a National Event. Regionals don't have the same feel, wins are far easier and I rarely get more then a couple cars in my class so I use those as test weekends. Last years January National at Sebring I had almost 30 cars in my class in STU.

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TurboShortBus

So, what you're saying is that, while the SCCA IT cars have weight/power ratios closer to TTD or TTC cars, they rack up a ton of NASA TT/PT modification points in all other categories (tires, drivetrain, suspension, brakes/chassis, aero, cage), right?

 

Mark

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Mrsideways
So, what you're saying is that, while the SCCA IT cars have weight/power ratios closer to TTD or TTC cars, they rack up a ton of NASA TT/PT modification points in all other categories (tires, drivetrain, suspension, brakes/chassis, aero, cage), right?

 

Mark

 

More like P/w Weight of TTF. But yeah. Like the protege is 110whp and 2640lbs race weight. Has to run a 6 inch wide wheel.

So tiny tire, No power, not all that light. SCCA class ITB. Chi I think ran a low 2:43 in it.

NASA Classing It's TTF at 2385lbs

 

TTF is 19.5:1

Protege actual is 24:1

 

But the protege takes points for

Springs

Shocks

Sway bars

Header

Exhaust

205 tires

Air Dam

Valve job

Compression

Stand alone ECU.

Air intake

 

Thats 37 points so it ends up in TTE with a Power to weight no where near close to TTF

 

When Chi's car was broken I kept telling him to bring out the protege and he kept saying no... he'll get killed in it. Mark that's why they don't show up.

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BlkGt3
You won't get em. They live all over the country it's a long haul down here to run a regional event with minimal competition for classes the cars aren't built for. Just cause they aren't here doesn't mean the times don't exsist and you shouldn't strive to run those times.... It's like walking around pretending your the best basketball player in the world just cause someone from the NBA won't come play at your local court.

When I asked the question I knew I might not like the answer....it's great to have a goal to strive for. I'm sure those T2 guys are serious drivers and know a lot more about setup than many of us.

 

Why do you prefer running SCCA? Seems the rules are written to pick winners. Aren't there cars that are given huge unfair advantages/allowences before even being on track (subaru/solstice/mustang)? At least the NASA points system is the same for all cars (ok, I know s2ks get screwed some and other cars also...system is not perfect) but in general you don't have to buy THE CAR to have for that year to have a chance. The points system allows for so many ways to skin a cat (like the Honda Sedan you mentioned).

 

If NASA had NATIONAL events throughout the year, the level of competition would be different. You can't really compare regional TT events w/ SCCA NAtional Events or event SCCA Tours/Pro Solos.

 

 

I like NASA classing system much better than SCCA as it allows the car owner to decide what is important. As for S2000's getting screwed I don't see how. You pick your car and learn to live with the Warts. I happen to like M3's so I drive one, can it be a good TTC car yes, am I a good enough driver, not yet but someday maybe. I am the 2011 Florida NASA TTC champion, even though you are a better driver, as I attended more events and with the FL NASA scoring system attendance counts.

 

This is for Mark for the future TT should allow a driver to drop 4 events and still be eligible for the championship ie if we have 8 race weekends=16 events you would only count the top 12 events.

 

Now a typical Regional CFR SCCA race weekend @ Sebring has over 200 entry's and Daytona usually runs over 300. NASA has what 30 to 40 race entries so why would you race NASA in a 1 or 2 car class when you can run in 5 to 20 car classes.

 

TT is a different story as SCCA does not have a viable TT program because it is run by the racers and not user friendly. Yes Ian,Chi, Jeff, Josh, myself are trying to get more TT attendance from AutoX but it is slow going with cost being an issue and worries about car damage, should not be an issue unless you drive an S2K Maggie and Nick are working their way through the ranks and should get there soon. Oh wait did I just name 7 AutoX who now TT or are working on getting there.

 

Peter

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TurboShortBus
So, what you're saying is that, while the SCCA IT cars have weight/power ratios closer to TTD or TTC cars, they rack up a ton of NASA TT/PT modification points in all other categories (tires, drivetrain, suspension, brakes/chassis, aero, cage), right?

 

Mark

 

More like P/w Weight of TTF. But yeah. Like the protege is 110whp and 2640lbs race weight. Has to run a 6 inch wide wheel.

So tiny tire, No power, not all that light. SCCA class ITB. Chi I think ran a low 2:43 in it.

NASA Classing It's TTF at 2385lbs

 

TTF is 19.5:1

Protege actual is 24:1

 

But the protege takes points for

Springs

Shocks

Sway bars

*Header

*Exhaust

205 tires

Air Dam

*Valve job

*Compression

*Stand alone ECU.

*Air intake

 

Thats 37 points so it ends up in TTE with a Power to weight no where near close to TTF

 

When Chi's car was broken I kept telling him to bring out the protege and he kept saying no... he'll get killed in it. Mark that's why they don't show up.

I was going by your example of mid-'80s RX7s having 150 rwhp, and assuming 2200 lbs race weight. No other cars were mentioned.

 

You do realize that a base reclass for the Protege that you mentioned above will be more accurate and conserve many of the engine-related modification points, right? I noted them with an asterisk. The provisions are already in place in the TT rules for this car to be more accurately classed. As you have had your own cars re-classed based on weight and power, I can assume that you already know that this could help Chi's Protege, but the choice was made not to do it. If that's why they don't show up, then they can't be helped, can they?

 

Mark

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TurboShortBus
This is for Mark for the future TT should allow a driver to drop 4 events and still be eligible for the championship ie if we have 8 race weekends=16 events you would only count the top 12 events.

Please forward this to Greg Greenbaum via email ([email protected]), as he is taking suggestions for the 2012 TT rules.

 

Mark

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