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An History of NASA Florida Time Trial Records - 2011

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Mrsideways

Pete hits a good point, SCCA regional races for those IT cars only cost $180-$200 for the race entry and typically you'll get 30 races in a weekend. It's much value per dollar.

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kbrew8991

regionally you're allowed to do whatever you want that makes sense Mark. No reason to tie each regions hands with a blanket statement type rule. Second paragraph under heading 7.3 on page 37

Also, a Regional TT Director may choose to increase or decrease the number of dropped scores

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l30thelion
I like NASA classing system much better than SCCA as it allows the car owner to decide what is important. As for S2000's getting screwed I don't see how. You pick your car and learn to live with the Warts. I happen to like M3's so I drive one, can it be a good TTC car yes, am I a good enough driver, not yet but someday maybe. I am the 2011 Florida NASA TTC champion, even though you are a better driver, as I attended more events and with the FL NASA scoring system attendance counts.

 

This is for Mark for the future TT should allow a driver to drop 4 events and still be eligible for the championship ie if we have 8 race weekends=16 events you would only count the top 12 events.

 

Now a typical Regional CFR SCCA race weekend @ Sebring has over 200 entry's and Daytona usually runs over 300. NASA has what 30 to 40 race entries so why would you race NASA in a 1 or 2 car class when you can run in 5 to 20 car classes.

 

TT is a different story as SCCA does not have a viable TT program because it is run by the racers and not user friendly. Yes Ian,Chi, Jeff, Josh, myself are trying to get more TT attendance from AutoX but it is slow going with cost being an issue and worries about car damage, should not be an issue unless you drive an S2K Maggie and Nick are working their way through the ranks and should get there soon. Oh wait did I just name 7 AutoX who now TT or are working on getting there.

 

Peter

Make that 8, I consider myself an autoxer more so than a track guy. I'm also trying to get some autox guys to come out (it would be fun to compelte in TT against D.Disimo for example). Some of them don't even know about the TT program, they perk up when I explain to them how much fun it is (like autox but on the track!). Hopefully there will be another 350Z coming out next year.

 

Autoxers are the type of person we should be active trying to get into the TT program. (no this doesn't mean just having them go straight to TT).

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Mrsideways

The issue is most autoxers show up with some track experience and expect to run TT in their 1st or 2nd weekend.... They are then told it's gonna be 3-4 weekends and they say "fuck it" and don't bother coming out. They also see the $300-$400 entry fee and remember they are paying $30 for an autox and say "fuck it".

 

You can populate the race group like crazy if you can reduce the price and give the IT cars a place to play. Perhaps saying NASA florida will allow SCCA IT classes just to get the car counts. Autox guys have got to be given an easier time getting into TT, and perhaps a discount to get them hooked.

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l30thelion
The issue is most autoxers show up with some track experience and expect to run TT in their 1st or 2nd weekend.... They are then told it's gonna be 3-4 weekends and they say "foo-fiddily-diddily it" and don't bother coming out. They also see the $300-$400 entry fee and remember they are paying $30 for an autox and say "foo-fiddily-diddily it".

 

You can populate the race group like crazy if you can reduce the price and give the IT cars a place to play. Perhaps saying NASA florida will allow SCCA IT classes just to get the car counts. Autox guys have got to be given an easier time getting into TT, and perhaps a discount to get them hooked.

It shouldn't be that bad for an autoxer w/ "some" track experience. They should already be solo, so assuming they are in H2, they can simply ask for a check ride into H3 on Sat, if they have the skills that should be no prob. Sunday they ask for a check ride into H4, if they have the skills...they are in H4. That means at the next event they run H4 on Sat and TT on Sunday (incentive: first time TT means free transponder rental!?!).

 

One of the things I liked about NASA when I was running H3 (dunno if its possible now), is that there was the option of having an instructor ride w/ you for a session for free (or a very low price) in H3. It helped me A LOT when I was getting ready to go from H3 to H4 (i think it was at Sebring, it helped me for sure). I don't think there are restrictions on moving up the ladder in terms of number of track events, its based on getting through the check rides which makes sense to me.

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BlkGt3

Just say no to discounted entry fee's not necessary to attract and pisses off the current TT group that now pay, all 3 of us

 

Peter

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32EVOIX
The SCCA Rules don't carry over very well

 

 

Now we are getting somewhere; I wanted you to see this point you just made. It is impossible and simply nothing more than conjecture to compare cars between two different organizations and rules and make the assumption that a car should perform a certain time or judge the performance of car and/or driver using another organizations rule sets. Cars are set up based on each rule set to maximize performance, which is my point for this whole discussion. Case in point, your skill sets and experience speak for themselves, your car is simply just not built for NASA rules, but to say if I did this and that does not amount to a hill of beans.

The Evo example you gave me means nothing as well, I drive my car to work every day, it has no cage, Tein coil overs, turbo back exhaust, and an intake, 1000 cc injectors and a fuel pump that’s all, everything else is stock completely, with a full interior, I ran a 2:22 at Sebring, at Homestead even had the baby seat in the back, so what? Following your logic I should say that, with KW’s or AST’s, 1.5 diff, big brake kit, a cage, a longer third gear, camber caster plates, strip the car down and put the weight back where I want it, seam weld, etc, etc, etc. I would run in the teens. That is just simply nonsense. Now I know that you have enough experience to make an educated guess and so do I, but these comparisons implying that SCCA drivers are somehow faster is just ludicrous. There are a handful of drivers that drive with us (you included in that short list) that I would put up against anyone in the same car, including so called pros. Just look at what Mike Skeen is doing to these called seasoned pros, some of which are factory prepared cars with factory drivers getting paid fat salaries.

 

 

 

Nasa doesn't draw the SCCA cars out the same way Redline Time Attack doesn't draw the NASA Guys out. Redlime Time Attack came to sebring and I think I was the ONLY NASA guy down here who ran it. Jimmy, why weren't you there?

Lack of Competition in Redline?

Rules set doesn't cater to your car?

No prize money in comparison?

 

You tell me?

 

Money and time, I will not compete anywhere unless my car is built to suit those rules and competitive within the rule sets. I don’t make excuses, if I am going to compete I want to know that the car is capable of winning and if I don’t then it was me not the car. In the very least I would have needed to put a cat, back in the car and get it re-tuned. No Hoosiers which means change the setup of the car etc. And the big one: 2-6.1 Roll cages and roll bars will be defined by the official tubing layout drawing. All cars must be equipped with at a minimum a 4 point roll cage/bar, a racing seat, and minimum 5 point racing harness. Don’t have any of the above; oh sorry I do have a six point harness. That being said if you have a car for me to drive next time please let me know I would be more than glad to run the event.

 

Besides to do what, beat these times? With what is allowed within the rules these times are comical.

 

Overall Street Tire Class Record

Dan O'Donnell - Professional Awesome Mitsubishi Evo VII - 2:25.113 @ Redline Time Attack 2010

Overall Enthusiast Class Record

Alexander Grimes - Mitsubishi Evolution IX - 2:30.564 @ Redline Time Attack 2010

 

I don’t have that kind of time and money not for one event and not with 3 kids.

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32EVOIX
Jumping in just for technical sake.

 

Marty is a hell of a driver (and all around sportsman). There are modifications there you didn't list he has which makes significant improvements on lap times for the Evo which Jimmy does not have (and neither do I at this point). Also while he's got the 41mm restrictor, it allows [email protected] to tune the torque through the roof. All while on the stock engine still which we're all very proud of. And he races on A6's, i'm assuming also because the SCCA sprints are shorter as I've tried it with mixed results.

 

Also for RTA, cmon. The STREET tire Evo that won I think which was the Professional Awesome guys in the Evo7, have 550hp to the wheels with all the drivetrain goodies. The next ruleset up MODIFIED, which Gates and a few others run had 750+HP, running 2:10's in practice on NT01 tires before he had electrical issues. Don't remember what the others did that day but was fun to spectate. RTA rules just weren't worth the $ it takes to demod or to seriously mod to the RTA standard those days, even for my car which is levels above Jimmy's. However i'd bet if we put you or Jimmy in that Evo7 it woulda gained whole seconds still.

 

 

Don’t know the man, don’t know the car, but I ran a 2:11 with a blown turbo in 105 degree heat at VIR, first time there. With a little more track knowledge, in average ambient temps, should run 2:03 to 2:04 just as my car sits with the F*&%en baby seat in the back.

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Balroks

Don’t know the man, don’t know the car, but I ran a 2:11 with a blown turbo in 105 degree heat at VIR, first time there. With a little more track knowledge, in average ambient temps, should run 2:03 to 2:04 just as my car sits with the F*&%en baby seat in the back.

 

F*king baby seat is hiding nitrous bottles

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dew-e
You do realize that a base reclass for the Protege that you mentioned above will be more accurate and conserve many of the engine-related modification points, right?

 

 

This--->

 

The Dyno reclass is NOT the way to go. Key is to find a car that can make well and above the HP needed for the class without producing a dynosheet.

 

I'd guess that a dyno reclass would put the car at 21:1, or no better than 20.5:1. It would be interesting to send it in just to see where it would get classed as I'd be willing to put a few beers against it not being any closer than 1 away from the max.. That's the downside of the dyno reclass, you are going to get screwed against a points car that can get a good amount of power from the free points mods and get closer, or exactly to the class max hp/weight.

Edited by Guest

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TurboShortBus
The issue is most autoxers show up with some track experience and expect to run TT in their 1st or 2nd weekend.... They are then told it's gonna be 3-4 weekends and they say "foo-fiddily-diddily it" and don't bother coming out. They also see the $300-$400 entry fee and remember they are paying $30 for an autox and say "foo-fiddily-diddily it".

 

You can populate the race group like crazy if you can reduce the price and give the IT cars a place to play. Perhaps saying NASA florida will allow SCCA IT classes just to get the car counts. Autox guys have got to be given an easier time getting into TT, and perhaps a discount to get them hooked.

I was fairly decent at autocross before getting involved with the big-track stuff, but that didn't prevent me from stuffing my 1986 Mustang SVO into the turn 10 wall at Homestead on my first day in HPDE-1. While I had no ambition to run in TT at the time (I was interested in working toward CMC), I was told by a couple of racers that I would just blow through the "easy" HPDE groups and get my race license. They couldn't have been more wrong...

 

Not to throw anybody under the bus or name names, but IIRC, one autocrosser's first couple of sessions in TT back in mid-2009 were met with off-track excursions, followed by a very serious crash in 2010. A fairly new TT driver with autocross experience significantly damaged his car at the last event at PBIR. And then there was my dumb ass in HPDE-1 in November 2007. My point is that autocross experience doesn't necessarily mean that any driver is ready for a track environment.

 

After that crash, I bought another used Mustang and was out at the next event, about 6 weeks later. And this was back when HPDE-1 was $300/day with no weekend discounts. Maybe I was just happy to throw money at the problem. $30 autocrosses might be good exercises in keeping skills sharp, but they tend to put me to sleep. 3 runs @ 50 seconds each...yawn...

 

Mark

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obzezzed350

Mark McKay...5% of his posts contain the words "wrecked mustang", "turn 10 fubar", "first hpde crash".

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kbrew8991
You do realize that a base reclass for the Protege that you mentioned above will be more accurate and conserve many of the engine-related modification points, right?

 

 

This--->

 

The Dyno reclass is NOT the way to go. Key is to find a car that can make well and above the HP needed for the class without producing a dynosheet.

 

I'd guess that a dyno reclass would put the car at 21:1, or no better than 20.5:1. It would be interested to send it in just to see where it would get classed as I'd be willing to but a few beers against it not being any closer than 1 away from the max.. That's the downside of the dyno reclass, you are going to get screwed against a points car that can get a good amount of power from the free points mods and get closer, or exactly to the class max hp/weight.

One size does not fit all. I gained with my hp/weight reclass.

 

I would think that in all but some rare cases an IT_ car would also gain with a hp/weight reclass simply due to how inefficently the points are spent (1" of head & intake porting being the same points as going all out, etc, etc on down the typical mods list)

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TurboShortBus
It shouldn't be that bad for an autoxer w/ "some" track experience. They should already be solo, so assuming they are in H2, they can simply ask for a check ride into H3 on Sat, if they have the skills that should be no prob. Sunday they ask for a check ride into H4, if they have the skills...they are in H4. That means at the next event they run H4 on Sat and TT on Sunday (incentive: first time TT means free transponder rental!?!).

We previously put a program in place for semi-experienced drivers to jump up the HPDE ladder a bit with a track "resume" and verifiable history. But, with the new management for 2012, I can't say how it will work.

 

Free transponder rental? Say whaaaaat? Our rental transponders are my personal property, and I would like to eventually recoup my expenses. Maybe the club could cover my rates.

 

One of the things I liked about NASA when I was running H3 (dunno if its possible now), is that there was the option of having an instructor ride w/ you for a session for free (or a very low price) in H3. It helped me A LOT when I was getting ready to go from H3 to H4 (i think it was at Sebring, it helped me for sure). I don't think there are restrictions on moving up the ladder in terms of number of track events, its based on getting through the check rides which makes sense to me.

In the past, we have kept a few spare instructors handy for check rides or substitutions. Anybody could ask for an instructor at any time, pending availability. Again, with the new management for 2012, I can't say how it will work.

 

Mark

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TurboShortBus
Mark McKay...5% of his posts contain the words "wrecked mustang", "turn 10 fubar", "first hpde crash".

Probably because 5% of my time on track has involved those 3 things...lol

 

Mark

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TurboShortBus
regionally you're allowed to do whatever you want that makes sense Mark. No reason to tie each regions hands with a blanket statement type rule. Second paragraph under heading 7.3 on page 37
Also, a Regional TT Director may choose to increase or decrease the number of dropped scores

Thank you, Ken.

 

Mark

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TurboShortBus
This--->

 

The Dyno reclass is NOT the way to go. Key is to find a car that can make well and above the HP needed for the class without producing a dynosheet.

I look at this as "cheating," as all cars are required to meet the weight/power ratio limits in their classes, even though they are not necessarily required to submit dyno sheets. But, TT officials can order any car to immediately report to a dyno (6.5.2, page 34), which more than makes up for the inaccuracy of the GPS units.

 

I am strongly considering borrowing a page from NASA SE's TT policies by requiring dyno sheets for all podium finishers for 2012 (for the most part, you know who you are). These would have to be submitted in advance. No dyno = TTR.

 

Mark

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l30thelion

I look at this as "cheating," as all cars are required to meet the weight/power ratio limits in their classes, even though they are not necessarily required to submit dyno sheets. But, TT officials can order any car to immediately report to a dyno (6.5.2, page 34), which more than makes up for the inaccuracy of the GPS units.

 

I am strongly considering borrowing a page from NASA SE's TT policies by requiring dyno sheets for all podium finishers for 2012 (for the most part, you know who you are). These would have to be submitted in advance. No dyno = TTR.

 

Mark

This would make it even easier to have an official "TT Dyno Day!" It would be nice to have the majority of us who are competing using dyno-reclass (and now maybe all podium finishers) to do dynos together on same day, same conditions, same dyno...to remove any doubt about HP numbers not being accurate. I'm up for it. Is it feasible if we have enough cars? Any interest?

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dew-e
This--->

 

The Dyno reclass is NOT the way to go. Key is to find a car that can make well and above the HP needed for the class without producing a dynosheet.

I look at this as "cheating," as all cars are required to meet the weight/power ratio limits in their classes, even though they are not necessarily required to submit dyno sheets. But, TT officials can order any car to immediately report to a dyno (6.5.2, page 34), which more than makes up for the inaccuracy of the GPS units.

 

I am strongly considering borrowing a page from NASA SE's TT policies by requiring dyno sheets for all podium finishers for 2012 (for the most part, you know who you are). These would have to be submitted in advance. No dyno = TTR.

 

Mark

 

I didn't mean that the car would break the maximum, just that from what I've seen of other posted dyno reclasses, it seems like you can get to the maximum hp/wght easier with points than you can with a dyno reclass. And going back even more to the point that Ian was making, there are some cars that will always be much better cars to drive because you can get them to the maximum hp/wght by only doing free point mods.

 

Points or dyno reclass, my car can't get anywhere near the TTE max ratio(168hp), nor could it in TTF(146hp.) With my reclass, Greg only gave me 18:1. Now, I can't really complain because I fall into the standard, is the car fully prepped and driven 100%, answer -"no." I could spend points to reduce weight, but I can't even get to the minimum weight that I got with the reclass so no ability to make the car even lighter. There just doesn't seem to be parity between certain points cars and a reclassed car in the same class.

 

I don't think providing a current dyno sheet for a record setting run to be considered valid is a bad idea. But if somebody wants to win the plastic trophy by cheating, they can easily cheat a dyno sheet.

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TurboShortBus
This would make it even easier to have an official "TT Dyno Day!" It would be nice to have the majority of us who are competing using dyno-reclass (and now maybe all podium finishers) to do dynos together on same day, same conditions, same dyno...to remove any doubt about HP numbers not being accurate. I'm up for it. Is it feasible if we have enough cars? Any interest?

It is definitely feasible if we have enough cars. But, if we have half the number of cars, then the cost will double (the dyno operator will need X dollars to cover his expenses and make a few bucks, regardless of how many cars show up). I have been talking to one guy about getting this done, although he prefers PBIR to keep his travel costs (and your dyno costs) down.

 

Mark

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TurboShortBus
I don't think providing a current dyno sheet for a record setting run to be considered valid is a bad idea. But if somebody wants to win the plastic trophy by cheating, they can easily cheat a dyno sheet.

Very true, although this will force them to intentionally cheat, rather than claiming, "Gee, I didn't know the car could make that much power." And that will get the penalty book thrown at them if/when we are able to accurately prove otherwise.

 

The plastic trophies do not matter; everybody is after the Hoosier contingency. It's one thing to swap trophies after a discrepancy has been found, but you can't get a few hundred dollars worth of tires back from somebody.

 

Mark

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l30thelion
I don't think providing a current dyno sheet for a record setting run to be considered valid is a bad idea. But if somebody wants to win the plastic trophy by cheating, they can easily cheat a dyno sheet.

TT Dyno Day would (help) fix this.

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Mrsideways
The issue is most autoxers show up with some track experience and expect to run TT in their 1st or 2nd weekend.... They are then told it's gonna be 3-4 weekends and they say "foo-fiddily-diddily it" and don't bother coming out. They also see the $300-$400 entry fee and remember they are paying $30 for an autox and say "foo-fiddily-diddily it".

 

You can populate the race group like crazy if you can reduce the price and give the IT cars a place to play. Perhaps saying NASA florida will allow SCCA IT classes just to get the car counts. Autox guys have got to be given an easier time getting into TT, and perhaps a discount to get them hooked.

I was fairly decent at autocross before getting involved with the big-track stuff, but that didn't prevent me from stuffing my 1986 Mustang SVO into the turn 10 wall at Homestead on my first day in HPDE-1. While I had no ambition to run in TT at the time (I was interested in working toward CMC), I was told by a couple of racers that I would just blow through the "easy" HPDE groups and get my race license. They couldn't have been more wrong...

 

Not to throw anybody under the bus or name names, but IIRC, one autocrosser's first couple of sessions in TT back in mid-2009 were met with off-track excursions, followed by a very serious crash in 2010. A fairly new TT driver with autocross experience significantly damaged his car at the last event at PBIR. And then there was my dumb ass in HPDE-1 in November 2007. My point is that autocross experience doesn't necessarily mean that any driver is ready for a track environment.

 

After that crash, I bought another used Mustang and was out at the next event, about 6 weeks later. And this was back when HPDE-1 was $300/day with no weekend discounts. Maybe I was just happy to throw money at the problem. $30 autocrosses might be good exercises in keeping skills sharp, but they tend to put me to sleep. 3 runs @ 50 seconds each...yawn...

 

Mark

 

The Individual you speak of wasn't just an autoxer. He had a SCCA Competition license and had run in numerous endurance races and sprint races and even held the track record at sebring club course for a short time. The autoxers that deserve to go straight into TT with no questions asked are guys that have been autoxing for years and years and years. I did 9 years of competitive national level autox before I started racing.

 

Jimmy, what's your race weight, Tire size, Wheel size, and hp at the ground? You gotta keep in mind the SCCA cars don't get to run E85 and also have to run on a control gas.

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TurboShortBus
Jimmy, what's your race weight, Tire size, Wheel size, and hp at the ground?

2 of those 4 are listed on his classification forms, which can be found via the link that I sent to all drivers several times throughout the season. That's why I post them all to Google Documents.

 

Mark

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Mrsideways
Jimmy, what's your race weight, Tire size, Wheel size, and hp at the ground?

2 of those 4 are listed on his classification forms, which can be found via the link that I sent to all drivers several times throughout the season. That's why I post them all to Google Documents.

 

Mark

 

Yeah yeah, it's always asking me for a password and I can never remember that...

 

Mark, Not everyone's first day on track is bad, This is video from my first day on track after years of autox (note T10). It's not fast but I'm not balling the car up...

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