bobzdar Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 I picked up a 355 I'm considering doing some TT's with. It's almost completely stock with exception of aftermarket springs (+4), cats deleted (+1) and adjustable rear control arms (+2), so +7 on top of the 7 points already assessed in TTA, but I'll probably run 275 tires instead of 295's and get back 2 points. It has factory computer controlled shocks, but there's an upgraded ECU used on the fiorano package cars and also availabe as part of a suspension option package on the car. There were other upgrades in that package, but I'm considering getting just the upgraded ECU if I can find one for a reasonable price (not too likely considering the stock ECU is over a grand). I don't see anything that would make me take points on this, but just wanted to make sure as I'd rather use the points on tires or brakes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbrew8991 Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 Ferrari, Firebird, Fiat - doesn't matter, if it's not base trim parts its points so make it worth it or downgrade So are you saying all 355s have the computer controlled stuff so Points Mod E8 wouldn't apply outright, and the only difference between these two suspension ECUs is programming? If that's the case if it were me I'd try and argue that Free Mod C7 covered the mod. Interesting thought excercise, I'd love to hear what you get as a clarification on this one. If the free mod doesn't cover you I bet you get to take points mod E8 though instead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AZELISE Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 I think you get 4 points back for -20mm tires Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobzdar Posted January 3, 2012 Author Share Posted January 3, 2012 Ferrari, Firebird, Fiat - doesn't matter, if it's not base trim parts its points so make it worth it or downgrade So are you saying all 355s have the computer controlled stuff so Points Mod E8 wouldn't apply outright, and the only difference between these two suspension ECUs is programming? If that's the case if it were me I'd try and argue that Free Mod C7 covered the mod. Interesting thought excercise, I'd love to hear what you get as a clarification on this one. If the free mod doesn't cover you I bet you get to take points mod E8 though instead. Right, they all have computer controlled shocks, only difference is the programming. 4 points back on the tires would give me 9 to work with, so I could run mpsc or the pirelli corsa tires and still have 2 points, just wanted to see if this mod would be free if I could find an ECU for a decent price. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
National Staff Greg G. Posted January 4, 2012 National Staff Share Posted January 4, 2012 Those control arms may be +4 points and then another +3 points for metallic and/or spherical-design bushings (C.24) if there are heim joints on the inboard side of those arms. Also, you had the shock and control arm points backwards. The question on the shock ECU is tricky. First, is it a completely separate computer, just for the shocks, or is it a part of the ECU for the entire car? Next, is it the actual same hardware as the base trim model, and it is just re-programmed, or does it have some changes in the hardware? Lastly, does it have any controls or settings that can be adjusted by the driver, or in the cockpit? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevor57 Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 You should expect to set precedent if you start winning. People will likely petition for a rule change. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobzdar Posted January 4, 2012 Author Share Posted January 4, 2012 Those control arms may be +4 points and then another +3 points for metallic and/or spherical-design bushings (C.24) if there are heim joints on the inboard side of those arms. Also, you had the shock and control arm points backwards. The question on the shock ECU is tricky. First, is it a completely separate computer, just for the shocks, or is it a part of the ECU for the entire car? Next, is it the actual same hardware as the base trim model, and it is just re-programmed, or does it have some changes in the hardware? Lastly, does it have any controls or settings that can be adjusted by the driver, or in the cockpit? It's a seperate computer just for the shocks, part numbers are different but are the same physically with the same connectors. I don't believe there are any hardware differences, but you'd have to crack the box open to be sure. There's also a challenge ecu for the 355 challenge cars, but they had different shock valving so not sure it would work well with the stock shocks, but they all are interchangeable. Only driver adjustment is comfort or sport mode toggle. I guess I'll have to try and trade for a set of stock control arms, the P/O had the car severely lowered so needed more camber adjustment. I raised it back up so the stock arms will work fine for my purposes and the modified versions would be a waste of points. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobzdar Posted January 4, 2012 Author Share Posted January 4, 2012 You should expect to set precedent if you start winning. People will likely petition for a rule change. It would be nice to be in that position. I'd sell it and put the stock back in or just unplug it and adjust the shocks manually if it comes down to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bnjmn Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 Unplugging is considered a mod as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dans2k Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 you should not have said anything Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
National Staff Greg G. Posted January 4, 2012 National Staff Share Posted January 4, 2012 you should not have said anything Dan, maybe you hit your head a little too hard? It is admirable and desirable that we have new competitors that have the integrity to make sure that their cars are 100% legal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobzdar Posted January 4, 2012 Author Share Posted January 4, 2012 I would hate to win knowing I had cheated anyway. I would only buy the ECU if I could find one at a reasonable price, and Ferrari parts and reasonable prices don't go hand in hand often. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dans2k Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 you should not have said anything Dan, maybe you hit your head a little too hard? It is admirable and desirable that we have new competitors that have the integrity to make sure that their cars are 100% legal. yea I don't mean that realy but who would have guessed it even had a shock ecu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
National Staff Greg G. Posted January 4, 2012 National Staff Share Posted January 4, 2012 Ok, bad news. The NASA exec's and I agree that under the rules, changing out this shock ECU would mean that it is no longer BTM (base trim model). It is not covered under the ECU No-Points mod for re-flashing (assuming that it does have the exact same hardware), because those ECU mods are specific to the Engine section, and this is a separate piece. If it was the actual single ECU controlling the entire vehicle, it might have been legal to include changes in programming of the shocks with re-flashing the ECU timing and fuel maps, etc (but it would have also been treading on the rule that states that you cannot use a legal mod to get the benefit of a mod that would otherwise take points, so it would have been a potential protest issue.) So, we are left with one of two situations. Either 1) the part/modification is not listed in the rules, making it not legal to modify at all, or 2) the modification is listed in the rules, and takes points. In this case, regardless of how worthless it may be, there is a cockpit adjustment available (comfort vs sport). So, changing the ECU for the shocks could fall under E.8 "Non-BTM driver/cockpit adjustable sway bar or suspension settings +4" So, the bottom line is that it will be a +4 point hit unless someone else comes up with a better analysis that would convince us otherwise. Or, there is the Dan approach...... (Just a joke, Dan!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bnjmn Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 Sounds right - and are Evos and STis hit with the same if they reprogram the diff ECU (the tuning of which is now mature and this is a desireable mod)? Tough one to enforce. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbrew8991 Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 and the difficult to police is how reflashes for Engine ECUs became a free mod. So.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
National Staff Greg G. Posted January 4, 2012 National Staff Share Posted January 4, 2012 Yep, that is a tough one also. Whenever I send a Dyno re-class to the AWD car owners, they get mad at me if I hint that their cars really "belong" in TTS/TTU/TTR. But seriously, we may get to the point with technology that our only choice to keep things fair is to move certain models to the "SUR" base class, even though their showroom Wt/Hp ratio is not close to the 8.7:1 Adjusted minimum for TTS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
obzezzed350 Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 Yep, that is a tough one also. Whenever I send a Dyno re-class to the AWD car owners, they get mad at me if I hint that their cars really "belong" in TTS/TTU/TTR. But seriously, we may get to the point with technology that our only choice to keep things fair is to move certain models to the "SUR" base class, even though their showroom Wt/Hp ratio is not close to the 8.7:1 Adjusted minimum for TTS. I double dare you!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bnjmn Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 You could have a NASA tech shop that specializes in such vehicles have the factory programmer on hand to flash everyone controller with a stock program, in case one of these programs founds its way in. http://www.evoscan.com/evoscan-gps-obdii-cables/details/14/1/performance-vehicle-pc-diagnostic-interfaces/evoscan-13r-usb-datalogging-and-reflashing-cable Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drivinhardz06 Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 The question on the shock ECU is tricky. First, is it a completely separate computer, just for the shocks, or is it a part of the ECU for the entire car? Next, is it the actual same hardware as the base trim model, and it is just re-programmed, or does it have some changes in the hardware? Lastly, does it have any controls or settings that can be adjusted by the driver, or in the cockpit? And we wonder why NASCAR's rulebook/formula/cars are so very simple Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clydesdale Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 People's Exhibit #1: Yep, that is a tough one also. Whenever I send a Dyno re-class to the AWD car owners, they get mad at me if I hint that their cars really "belong" in TTS/TTU/TTR. But seriously, we may get to the point with technology that our only choice to keep things fair is to move certain models to the "SUR" base class, even though their showroom Wt/Hp ratio is not close to the 8.7:1 Adjusted minimum for TTS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
National Staff Greg G. Posted January 4, 2012 National Staff Share Posted January 4, 2012 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varkwso Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 There are quite a few cars with cockpit selectable modes. Not sure how many have their own shock ecu though. To the OP my 308 GTB broke me of the Ferrari track habit in the 80's. It had no ecu though... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobzdar Posted January 5, 2012 Author Share Posted January 5, 2012 There are quite a few cars with cockpit selectable modes. Not sure how many have their own shock ecu though. To the OP my 308 GTB broke me of the Ferrari track habit in the 80's. It had no ecu though... Would unplugging the ECU be a +3 for aftermarket or revalved shocks? That would probably be a more effective (and cost effective) route for me to take once I get comfortable enough with the car to actually want to mess with shock damping. At least there are a bunch of 355 challenge parts out there to play with, but the cost will give you a grabber. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
National Staff Greg G. Posted January 5, 2012 National Staff Share Posted January 5, 2012 I would say that it would be hard for anyone to argue that if you unplugged the shock ECU, and even re-valved or changed to a new +3 point shock, that it would be any more than +3 points. Even though the BTM comes with the shock ECU, it functions to adjust the dampening of the shocks real time. Changing to other shocks that have fixed damping is no different than anyone else switching to the same shocks for +3. (And for those of you ready to jump on your keyboard, this is not the same as someone with a BTM wing that removes it and doesn't want to take the points, where there is clearly the possibility that removal of the often large BTM wing will have a direct performance improvement compared to the BTM classed in the rules by decreasing drag.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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