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Bnjmn

Has 2012 Nats AWD dyno been reserved yet? & TT rules nit

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speedengineer
Limited boost is the obvious way to limit HP, my point was that it is merely a hurdle as to is pretty easy to be able to meet a given HP limit at a certain boost amount by limiting timing, and easy to exceed the limit by adding back timing (and similarly, by playing w/fuel maps).

 

 

Bingo..lot more goes into making power then a boost number.

 

Gets even easier when you have variable cam phasing, just put the cam in the wrong spot and there goes 15% of your power at the same boost level. Then you don't even have to compromise engine health/egt's by running suboptimal ignition timing and fueling.

 

A lot of cars have cam phasors now days...including two commonly tracked AWD turbo cars iirc.

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clydesdale

Can someone cite an example of a non-SUR turbo car setup that can exceed the class hp/weight limit? Generally I've found that cars such as Evo and STI that use engine points need to maximize the tune and are still not be near the limit anyway. An Evo at 3260 lbs would need to make more than 388 awhp for the TTA limit and more than 325 awhp for the TTB limit. I think you would be hard pressed to do that with the available points, but I could be wrong about that if someone could show differently. Reclassed turbos like mine would be the more obvious target of this thread. However, my opinion is that we are substantially shorter on power by comparison and would stick out like a sore thumb if the tune was rigged-- comparative Traqmate data would easily show that within several HP. I think the fuel map thing is a little blown out of proportion unless someone wants to be more specific about an actual car or competitor. Did a turbo car even win anything at 2011 Nationals?

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SNAKBITN

In AIX

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Bnjmn

Not sure of the relevancy of the question - this isn't only a National-levels issue and I don't understand the arguing for only being reactive. Just apply the rules equally, whatever they are.

 

Evo almost won TTA.

ST2 was a washout.

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Balroks

Pretty much what I see, a bunch of Internet Ingineers arguing over nothing and trying to make something big they obviously know little about. I've yet to see one real justification for any of these claims. If you're gonna argue over what's "possible" why don't you go ahead and outlaw every sports car made. Because if someone wants to be an a**hole and has the mean$, they can cheat with ANYTHING.

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obzezzed350
Pretty much what I see, a bunch of Internet Ingineers arguing over nothing and trying to make something big they obviously know little about. I've yet to see one real justification for any of these claims. If you're gonna argue over what's "possible" why don't you go ahead and outlaw every sports car made. Because if someone wants to be an a**hole and has the mean$, they can cheat with ANYTHING.

 

Cheater

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sperkins
Pretty much what I see, a bunch of Internet Ingineers arguing over nothing and trying to make something big they obviously know little about. I've yet to see one real justification for any of these claims. If you're gonna argue over what's "possible" why don't you go ahead and outlaw every sports car made. Because if someone wants to be an a**hole and has the mean$, they can cheat with ANYTHING.

M'a't't, can you make a point for why it should be ok for everyone to be expected (required if you podium) to put their car on the dyno except you?

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Vettedoctor
Pretty much what I see, a bunch of Internet Ingineers arguing over nothing and trying to make something big they obviously know little about. I've yet to see one real justification for any of these claims. If you're gonna argue over what's "possible" why don't you go ahead and outlaw every sports car made. Because if someone wants to be an a**hole and has the mean$, they can cheat with ANYTHING.

M'a't't, can you make a point for why it should be ok for everyone to be expected (required if you podium) to put their car on the dyno except you?

 

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Balroks
Pretty much what I see, a bunch of Internet Ingineers arguing over nothing and trying to make something big they obviously know little about. I've yet to see one real justification for any of these claims. If you're gonna argue over what's "possible" why don't you go ahead and outlaw every sports car made. Because if someone wants to be an a**hole and has the mean$, they can cheat with ANYTHING.

M'a't't, can you make a point for why it should be ok for everyone to be expected (required if you podium) to put their car on the dyno except you?

 

LoL, I love that flick. But as it was said 100 times on here, Dyno's and WHP can be fooled if someone has the means and wants to be a d*ck to his or her fellow racers. Doesn't matter if it's 2WD, 4WD, turbo, supercharger, or Hamster power. We're going in the right direction with ON TRACK checks, GPS, etc. That's the only way to really know and catch cheaters DURING the race. And require everyone to use it, with plenty of testing time as Greg already mentioned long ago. Else it's a he said, she said, what if, battle till your blue in the face.

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Varkwso

GPS data needs a known data point for reference calibrations. Think "check source". Dyno is good for a calibrated source on a known engine.

 

While all can cheat the fact is boosted and vario cammed cars can do it easier. Swapping cams/heads on a mod motor or LS motor is not a multiple map away. The tune gain is in the 3-5% range on most na cars.

 

Dynos can be beat/gamed. But if they don't matter why do we have them at an event?

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sperkins
Dyno's and WHP can be fooled if someone has the means and wants to be a d*ck to his or her fellow racers. Doesn't matter if it's 2WD, 4WD, turbo, supercharger, or Hamster power. We're going in the right direction with ON TRACK checks, GPS, etc. That's the only way to really know and catch cheaters DURING the race. And require everyone to use it, with plenty of testing time as Greg already mentioned long ago. Else it's a he said, she said, what if, battle till your blue in the face.

Agreed, but you have to see the main point that's it's not right for one person to be dyno'd while another is not. That's all I'm saying. I wouldn't care if you were driving an AWD Ford F150 Lightning. If I get dyno'd, you get dyno'd.

 

Dynos can be beat/gamed. But if they don't matter why do we have them at an event?

Exactly.

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Balroks

I'm all for strapping down on a dyno if it's available. But to ask the org to go to the expense for all 4 or so cars is asking a lot as Greg said. If the other method is documented and proven, lets use it. If I was in your shoes I wouldn't want to add 50 or 100 bucks to my signup costs to watch 4 cars use 1 piece of equipment a few times. But on the other note, it's not for just "these cars." I know for a fact several BMW's, Porsche's amoung other NA/2WD cars can gain 50hp with the flip of a switch on the ECU. One of these won nationals in 2011. Cars are evolving, testing methods are evolving with them.

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sperkins

Phase 1....Phase 1....Phase 1.....

 

If the other method is documented and proven, lets use it.

I agree 100%, but only if WE ALL use it.

 

If I was in your shoes I wouldn't want to add 50 or 100 bucks to my signup costs to watch 4 cars use 1 piece of equipment a few times.

I've been saying the whole time that we should eliminate the dyno all together. I would gladly pocket the savings.

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Vettedoctor

The way I see it the dyno is at the track to set a baseline for the GPS data. For example the top 3 or 4 Corvettes in TTA will have the GPS in there cars during a run, afterward they are weighed and dynoed. The reason that they are put on the dyno is to see exactly where there hp/weight ratio is at. This way they have a point of referance for the GPS data, they know that a car that was at 8.4 hp/wt on track was pulling X number of G's during acceleration. Now if one of the AWD cars was pulling harder than a car that was right at the class limit they know that something is up and that AWD car should be dynoed as well. Obviously nothing came back fishy last year so that didn't happen. I don't think that the dyno info is being used to "catch" cheaters I think it's more to help use the GPS data more effectively.

 

I agree with Scott that if we have to go through the PITA of dynoing our cars then so should everyone else, but it's not hard to see NASA's point of view either. For the most part I think that NASA has a good amount of data on various cars and there different configuration aero/no aero etc, the car I would be more worried about is a car that they don't have any data on showing up and having nothing to base there performance off of. (Aiel Atom, CTS-V wagon, Lotus Super 7 etc.)

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sperkins

James Forbis was DQ'd for being something like 4 horsepower over on the dyno at Nats this year. He had all his previous times thrown out and had to "get it done" late in the event. I bring this up for a few reasons:

1. Most competitors at the national level (especially TT'ers) are bumping the limit of their PW/WT ratio.

2. Can TM data be accurate enough to pick up 4hp?

3. Are the officials going to force a competitor to an off-site dyno for a suspicion of being 4 horsepower over?

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Bnjmn

GPS #'s are treated +/- 2%, so even if it did pick it up, that would not be a dq.

 

We had either exact or within 1-2hp correlation btw TM and dyno numbers (anecdotally) in the NE. NASA obviously has (or should have) a big database, would be interesting to know what it looks like.

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ILIKETODRIVE
Phase 1....Phase 1....Phase 1.....

Phase 2:

 

???

 

Phase 3:

 

PROFIT

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Varkwso
I'm all for strapping down on a dyno if it's available. But to ask the org to go to the expense for all 4 or so cars is asking a lot as Greg said. If the other method is documented and proven, lets use it. If I was in your shoes I wouldn't want to add 50 or 100 bucks to my signup costs to watch 4 cars use 1 piece of equipment a few times. But on the other note, it's not for just "these cars." I know for a fact several BMW's, Porsche's amoung other NA/2WD cars can gain 50hp with the flip of a switch on the ECU. One of these won nationals in 2011. Cars are evolving, testing methods are evolving with them.

 

 

50hp with a switch on a na Pcar.

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UKRBMW

P-Car owners would pay 5 grand for that mod if somebody could come up with that, ask me how I know. NA PCar will pick up 30 hp after 4-5K of mods (at least on the later watercooled models) and that's if you're lucky.

 

I would have to agree with Scott and others. If TQ data so good let's not dyno anybody and just use TQ. If not there needs to be consistency - AWD cars can't be exempt due to "logistical" issues. If there is additional cost - pass it on to AWD competitors, not all of us. We didn't pick the car - you did and therefore you pick up the expense. I understand this makes AWD owners upset, but again there has to be consistency in applying rules to all competitors.

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obzezzed350
P-Car owners would pay 5 grand for that mod if somebody could come up with that, ask me how I know. NA PCar will pick up 30 hp after 4-5K of mods (at least on the later watercooled models) and that's if you're lucky.

 

I would have to agree with Scott and others. If TQ data so good let's not dyno anybody and just use TQ. If not there needs to be consistency - AWD cars can't be exempt due to "logistical" issues. If there is additional cost - pass it on to AWD competitors, not all of us. We didn't pick the car - you did and therefore you pick up the expense. I understand this makes AWD owners upset, but again there has to be consistency in applying rules to all competitors.

 

Word.

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Varkwso
P-Car owners would pay 5 grand for that mod if somebody could come up with that, ask me how I know. NA PCar will pick up 30 hp after 4-5K of mods (at least on the later watercooled models) and that's if you're lucky.

 

I would have to agree with Scott and others. If TQ data so good let's not dyno anybody and just use TQ. If not there needs to be consistency - AWD cars can't be exempt due to "logistical" issues. If there is additional cost - pass it on to AWD competitors, not all of us. We didn't pick the car - you did and therefore you pick up the expense. I understand this makes AWD owners upset, but again there has to be consistency in applying rules to all competitors.

 

The mad Russian speaks...

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Balroks

BS, that's like asking the Spec Miata guys to spend an extra 50 bucks at regs because it takes 10x longer to check for their well documented but always new cheating methods at impound. Just because you Vette's "hide" in the shadows yet still dominate the podiums doesn't give you the right to speak for the other 300 participates.

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sperkins

Don't forget that some vettes dominate in HPDE too.

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Cobra4B
Don't forget that some vettes dominate in HPDE too.

Only the ones with titanium lugnuts

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Bnjmn

It is "free" to check the spec 944s, SM's, etc b/c people do that. They are either going to sitting around or else spec'ing cars. The dyno costs add'l $. Which is why presumably the underlying reason that we are having this discussion.

 

I thought that Mark was kind of joking when he said the dyno rule was "just trust us" on awd cars but it is just that...odd to get so much pushback for consistent application of the rules.

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