Has 2012 Nats AWD dyno been reserved yet? & TT rules nit

[kbrew8991]

Competition cost money get over it!

then why make it worse than it needs to be.

 

NASA is welcome to buy whatever they want and slap it on my car

[sperkins]

Somehow this thread has been morphed into the Vette guys think the AWD guys are cheating.

That has absolutely nothing to do with anything. No one has even made a hint of that. The point is that all cars should be inspected for compliance equally. Period.

[jason]

The point is that all cars should be inspected for compliance equally. Period.

I can't figure out why that's so hard to grasp.

[Varkwso]

From my experience on the enforcement side of the NASA rules you are all a bunch of potential cheaters and need better money management skills.

 

To be honest most people who cross up the rules just made an error. Also the blatant ones are easy (e.g., race gas does not equal stock tune unless you like to waste money) especially when I can see the ARP head bolts on your OEM motor.

 

Seriously. I want all the tools in the belt possible to make it fair for all racers.

 

 

Ukrbmr. You sir, are not an idiot, and for Porsche/BMW guy even fun in their own special way.

[brkntrxn]

The point is that all cars should be inspected for compliance equally. Period.

I can't figure out why that's so hard to grasp.

 

 

I agree. It is not rocket science, it is fairness. I have the potential to get DQed for being 1 horsepower over my limit via dyno testing variances. Yet someone else does not because that same 1hp will not show up on data acquisition acceleration figures. How is that fair?

Edited January 13, 2012 by Guest

[kbrew8991]

The point is that all cars should be inspected for compliance equally. Period.

I can't figure out why that's so hard to grasp.

The understeer from those nose heavy AWD beasts has warped their brains...

[Vettedoctor]

The point is that all cars should be inspected for compliance equally. Period.

I can't figure out why that's so hard to grasp.[/quote]

 

 

I agree. It is not rocket science, it is fairness. I have the potential to get DQed for being 1 horsepower over my limit via dyno testing variances. Yet someone else does not because that same 1hp will not show up on data acquisition acceleration figures. How is that fair?

 

Seriously AWD guys how can you argue with this statement? If some competitors (2wd cars) have the chance to get DQ'd over 1 hp and have that hanging over there head before we can claim our prize why shouldn't you?

I would say for Nationals podium = dyno period no exceptions! This would save the cost of renting an AWD dyno - pack 'em up and take them to the AWD dyno shop - and to be fair to our AWD brotheren tell them what dyno shop will be used for compliance testing. They should have the chance to check and tune there car on the dyno they may/will be tested on for compliance. All of the cars I set up end up going on the "NASA" dyno the Tuesday or Wednesday before Nationals so that we know we are not over or giving anything away. This requires some planning ahead but I think this is the only way to make things fair across the board.

[Cobra4B]

Somehow this thread has been morphed into the Vette guys think the AWD guys are cheating.

Wait... but they are right?

 

On a related note... anyone who feels the need to cheat to win a plastic trophy is a bit pathetic. I mean how can you take pride in your accomplishment when you cheated? I guess some people think cheating is an integral part of racing and that everyone's doing it so he who cheats best is the winner... or something like that.

[TurboShortBus]

On a related note... anyone who feels the need to cheat to win a plastic trophy is a bit pathetic. I mean how can you take pride in your accomplishment when you cheated? I guess some people think cheating is an integral part of racing and that everyone's doing it so he who cheats best is the winner... or something like that.

While this may be true, the chance to win several hundred dollars worth of free Hoosiers each event day could bring out the best and worst in some people.

 

Mark

[Cobra4B]

Can someone summarize the PT compliance rules for me? I'm having a hard time getting it clear in my head from reading them.

 

1. In PT, unless you have a dyno reclass, you don't need to submit a dyno sheet?

 

2. You put your minimum competition weight on your classification form. If you are below that weight it is considered a procedural violation, even if you are dyno'd and you're power/weight ratio is still legal correct?

 

3. Related to the question above... it appears there is a 5 pound allowance the first time you are weighed?

"...there will be a five (5.0) pound leeway allowed during the first time the vehicle is weighed for that event (weekend). There will be no leeway at subsequent weighings for the remainder of the event. Appropriate penalties will then be assessed per the PT rules (6.4), including a penalty for a Procedural Violation for any vehicle failing to meet the Minimum Competition Weight listed on the Car Classification Form."

 

4. Related to the above again... if you are more than 5lbs light the first weighing you will be penalized immediately?

[ILIKETODRIVE]

Can someone summarize the PT compliance rules for me? I'm having a hard time getting it clear in my head from reading them.

 

1. In PT, unless you have a dyno reclass, you don't need to submit a dyno sheet?

 

2. You put your minimum competition weight on your classification form. If you are below that weight it is considered a procedural violation, even if you are dyno'd and you're power/weight ratio is still legal correct?

 

3. Related to the question above... it appears there is a 5 pound allowance the first time you are weighed?

"...there will be a five (5.0) pound leeway allowed during the first time the vehicle is weighed for that event (weekend). There will be no leeway at subsequent weighings for the remainder of the event. Appropriate penalties will then be assessed per the PT rules (6.4), including a penalty for a Procedural Violation for any vehicle failing to meet the Minimum Competition Weight listed on the Car Classification Form."

 

4. Related to the above again... if you are more than 5lbs light the first weighing you will be penalized immediately?

1. Technically, correct. A TT/PT director may request a dyno from all competitors because even going by base classification all competitors have a weight-to-power limit for their class. (base weight and maximum allowable whp for weight-to-power limit for class)

 

2. I am unsure about this...

 

3. Yes, 5lb grace ONCE for the weekend.

 

4. Yes I believe so. You can be reweighed (roll off and back on) or be weighed opposite direction on scales since there is a margin of error with them.

[Bnjmn]

3. Related to the question above... it appears there is a 5 pound allowance the first time you are weighed?

"...there will be a five (5.0) pound leeway allowed during the first time the vehicle is weighed for that event (weekend). There will be no leeway at subsequent weighings for the remainder of the event. Appropriate penalties will then be assessed per the PT rules (6.4), including a penalty for a Procedural Violation for any vehicle failing to meet the Minimum Competition Weight listed on the Car Classification Form."

 

4. Related to the above again... if you are more than 5lbs light the first weighing you will be penalized immediately?

 

I got dinged on this at nationals (3lbs under) - and this is how it worked for TT:

I weighed my car a few times on Thursday, but not after being sent to get weighed - I thought these were unofficial weighs on my own time and would not count. They counted, margins of error added up and I was 3lbs under for my first "official" weigh (after the early Friday session) - ruling was b/c I weighed the car previously I lost the 5lb cushion and so got my times dq'd. I did not lose my grid position, which is all that mattered at that point.

[Tcal]

I don’t think any AWD person is saying that it is fair. I think a lot of us are just looking for solutions beyond the dyno…which have been mentioned many times here. Obviously NASA has financial or logistical problems in getting an AWD dyno, so why not look for the next, maybe better solution? But yes, if you should, we should.

 

Also, my earlier comments about vettes were merely a joke/compliment. I enjoy racing against everyone in the GL region. But,,, I think any group will be hostile towards you if you say that they should just be banned all together. Hope to see you all soon.

[Varkwso]

I don’t think any AWD person is saying that it is fair. I think a lot of us are just looking for solutions beyond the dyno…which have been mentioned many times here. Obviously NASA has financial or logistical problems in getting an AWD dyno, so why not look for the next, maybe better solution? But yes, if you should, we should.

 

Also, my earlier comments about vettes were merely a joke/compliment. I enjoy racing against everyone in the GL region. But,,, I think any group will be hostile towards you if you say that they should just be banned all together. Hope to see you all soon.

 

I am pretty sure just about every car but a Yugo has been nominated for banning.

[TurboShortBus]

I am pretty sure just about every car but a Yugo has been nominated for banning.

Sweet. Spec Yugo for TT, then. Call it TTY. Everybody's entry fee will go toward the purchase and construction of one carbureted Yugo that Greg will build and bring. All entered drivers will take their turn in the car, and the quickest time of the event will determine the national champion. Dyno and GPS won't be necessary, as nothing on the car will change between sessions (except the driver). Problem solved, and we can probably lock 99% of the threads in this forum.

 

Mark

[ILIKETODRIVE]

I am pretty sure just about every car but a Yugo has been nominated for banning.

Sweet. Spec Yugo for TT, then. Call it TTY. Everybody's entry fee will go toward the purchase and construction of one carbureted Yugo that Greg will build and bring. All entered drivers will take their turn in the car, and the quickest time of the event will determine the national champion. Dyno and GPS won't be necessary, as nothing on the car will change between sessions (except the driver). Problem solved, and we can probably lock 99% of the threads in this forum.

 

Mark

In for TTY.

[UKRBMW]

Ukrbmr. You sir, are not an idiot, and for Porsche/BMW guy even fun in their own special way.

 

Thanks for the vote of confidence, but I've been called worse

 

Anyways, I said this before and I'll say it again. Most comments in this thread are all about "dyno" won't catch anything or GPS is as good as a dyno. All that maybe true, but it needs to be applied equally to all. If AWD can't be dynoed than none of the other cars should be. If all we use on AWD cars is GPS than we should use GPS on all cars. And yes the Corvettes dominate a lot of things, but they've had a long time to develop. Evo almost won TTA so clearly others are catching up. Just think of it like this - if the Evo did win TTA and wasn't dynoed once, how would that make everybody else feel???

 

Mad "idiot" Russian

[brkntrxn]

I am pretty sure just about every car but a Yugo has been nominated for banning.

Sweet. Spec Yugo for TT, then. Call it TTY. Everybody's entry fee will go toward the purchase and construction of one carbureted Yugo that Greg will build and bring. All entered drivers will take their turn in the car, and the quickest time of the event will determine the national champion. Dyno and GPS won't be necessary, as nothing on the car will change between sessions (except the driver). Problem solved, and we can probably lock 99% of the threads in this forum.

 

Mark

 

Love the idea. Think I'll go on an exlax diet to reduce my overall weight. Since I am so full of it, I can probably get down to 90lbs and be lighter than everyone else!!! Unless of course, we add lead to even everyone to 300lbs. I vote for Mr T starter kits to even out the weights.

[WynnS123]

Ukrbmr. You sir, are not an idiot, and for Porsche/BMW guy even fun in their own special way.

 

Thanks for the vote of confidence, but I've been called worse

 

Anyways, I said this before and I'll say it again. Most comments in this thread are all about "dyno" won't catch anything or GPS is as good as a dyno. All that maybe true, but it needs to be applied equally to all. If AWD can't be dynoed than none of the other cars should be. If all we use on AWD cars is GPS than we should use GPS on all cars. And yes the Corvettes dominate a lot of things, but they've had a long time to develop. Evo almost won TTA so clearly others are catching up. Just think of it like this - if the Evo did win TTA and wasn't dynoed once, how would that make everybody else feel???

 

Mad "idiot" Russian

 

He said you are NOT and idiot.

[Fixxxercask]

LOL You put forth too much effort with the spec Hugo thing.

 

I'm down though.

[TurboShortBus]

Hell, I'd even be down to clown with TTY.

 

Maybe we charge each regular entrant $50 to throw down one flying lap; winner takes all.

 

Mark

[UKRBMW]

Hell, I'd even be down to clown with TTY.

 

Maybe we charge each regular entrant $50 to throw down one flying lap; winner takes all.

 

Mark

 

But what if somebody brings a switch with them good for 50 hp? They can install it while strapping in the car and remove it before they get out. Clearly there is an easy way to cheat...

[32EVOIX]

Seriously AWD guys how can you argue with this statement? If some competitors (2wd cars) have the chance to get DQ'd over 1 hp and have that hanging over there head before we can claim our prize why shouldn't you?

I would say for Nationals podium = dyno period no exceptions! This would save the cost of renting an AWD dyno - pack 'em up and take them to the AWD dyno shop - and to be fair to our AWD brotheren tell them what dyno shop will be used for compliance testing. They should have the chance to check and tune there car on the dyno they may/will be tested on for compliance. All of the cars I set up end up going on the "NASA" dyno the Tuesday or Wednesday before Nationals so that we know we are not over or giving anything away. This requires some planning ahead but I think this is the only way to make things fair across the board.

 

Wow what a thread, this may be quite lengthy to address all points.

 

1) Nobody has said that they do not want a dyno or that they do not want an even playing field in this thread. To my recollection all the arguments have been made as to the effectiveness of a dyno for any car, and the cost, given the relatively small number of Turbo contending cars.

2) Rather insensitive comment to pack them out and ship them, are YOU going to pay for it, what about lost track time, YOU going to pay for my tuner to fly up to Ohio and stay for the week to tune my car? I think not, so please give some thought to your comments that is certainly not a level playing field. You want a dyno, are you willing to pay for it, do you want it that bad, no problem you pay for it and I will go on it as much as you will like. I had so many GPS units in my car that I am convinced there is one up my ass still.

3) Scott is correct nobody accused AWD of cheating, but rather that it would be easier to cheat which was very technically and gracefully explained in the rather lengthy post, which in effect shows how little people know about Turbo cars but yet they make comments as to their ability to cheat.

4) There are some rumblings about the C5 guys cheating as well. Why is it that every time somebody wins everyone comes out of the wood work and accuses people of cheating? More often than not they do not know the people nor the cars, these guys have worked exceptionally hard in setting up their cars to the max of the rule book and I will tell you they are all exceptional drivers. And by the way I don’t think they are unbeatable, at the Nationals out of 14 TTA cars 9 C5’S, 2 Evo’s, 2 M3’s 1 FFR, top five, 3 C5’s 2 Evo’s, so what’s with the crazy comments. Build your car to the limit and learn how to drive it and come and play. Personally, I look forward to the day I can make my way up to RA or VIR again and play with those guys, because I know that if you come close to beating them you have done something exceptional, that is how well prepared they are.

5) The claim that only turbo cars can flick a switch and make more power is made by people that seriously are talking out their Ass. You can do the same with NA cars all day long. So why single out FI cars. I don’t care what car you drive if you are a scumbag and want to cheat all it takes is money that’s all. I don’t care if there is a dyno. Gps or lojack whatever, those kind of people will try and circumvent the rules.

 

 

Lastly, I too agree that there needs to be a dyno for all cars, if that is the rule, you cannot make exceptions for anyone. Do I want to pay higher fees to have one NO, do I want my car to be singled out to be towed at my expense to a dyno 60 miles away and miss my track time or personal time for that matter BIG NO. The technology exists to make dyno’s obsolete in these types of situations, and I truly believe that NASA is heading that way because they realize the difficulties of enforcing a level playing field with such a diverse field of cars. So just be patient.

[ILIKETODRIVE]

But what if somebody brings a switch with them good for 50 hp? They can install it while strapping in the car and remove it before they get out. Clearly there is an easy way to cheat...

Here's mine:

 

[UKRBMW]

LOL - I figured it'd be gold for how much it's likely to cost