RockLobster Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 I've always wondered why the tire points were based off of a "street-tire-zero" that nearly nobody runs in competition certainly not if they want to be atop the leader board. How about this: Drop the sticky streets back to 0pts. Drop the 7pt tires to 5pts. Drop the 10pt tires to 8pts. Leave the 13pt tires at 13 pts. OPTIONAL: Drop the slicks to 25pts? But...don't give points back for running M+S tires. I see no reason to endeavor into that area... Would this not have the least effect on enduro cross classing, base classing...car setups etc? This way you are not pushing anyone out of a class they really want to run in, AKA "are currently running in". But perhaps they will consider switching compounds to get a few weight points back etc... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abad46 Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 I've always wondered why the tire points were based off of a "street-tire-zero" that nearly nobody runs in competition certainly not if they want to be atop the leader board. How about this: Drop the sticky streets back to 0pts. Drop the 7pt tires to 5pts. Drop the 10pt tires to 8pts. Leave the 13pt tires at 13 pts. OPTIONAL: Drop the slicks to 25pts? But...don't give points back for running M+S tires. I see no reason to endeavor into that area... Would this not have the least effect on enduro cross classing, base classing...car setups etc? This way you are not pushing anyone out of a class they really want to run in, AKA "are currently running in". But perhaps they will consider switching compounds to get a few weight points back etc... This makes the most sense to me! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockLobster Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 As to the issue of the BFG, maybe it is in a 10 or 11pt class all it's own....assuming the other 10pt tires drop to 8pts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zigspeed10 Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Now that Hoosier no longer has the best contingency, lets see how much support there is for a 13 point A6. I've been eyeing the BFG for PTA and their great contingency compared to Hoosier may have sealed the deal for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drivinhardz06 Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Now that Hoosier no longer has the best contingency, lets see how much support there is for a 13 point A6. I've been eyeing the BFG for PTA and their great contingency compared to Hoosier may have sealed the deal for me. They both pay the same for 1st, and 2nd with 7 in class, just no 3rd. And no BFG for TT...advantage Hoosier there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperkins Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Now that Hoosier no longer has the best contingency, lets see how much support there is for a 13 point A6. I've been eyeing the BFG for PTA and their great contingency compared to Hoosier may have sealed the deal for me. Interesting. Nothing for TT though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varkwso Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Now that Hoosier no longer has the best contingency, lets see how much support there is for a 13 point A6. I've been eyeing the BFG for PTA and their great contingency compared to Hoosier may have sealed the deal for me. Interesting. Nothing for TT though. BFG May pick up TT next year maybe. Yoko covers TT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbrew8991 Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 BFG May pick up TT next year maybe. Source? I've only seen the opposite and opposite indications is why I ask. I won't consider them for racing or anything else until they share some love with TT out of principle. But they do have the best payout for racing, and racing is where I win my tires currently... so they could gain some traction in my book if that is true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
retlaw Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 As mentioned, wider tires make you faster and thus they cost points. Skinny tires make you slower, thus you should get points back. Makes sense, right? Similarly, I would support points back for those running over base class weight. Same deal - less weight makes you faster, you take points. Makes sense to me that you get some points back for weighing extra. Might I suggest though that it wouldn't be at the same points/pound. Perhaps 1 point/30lbs instead of 15? I know TT drivers that compete in nearly stock vehicles that they daily drive. Not everyone wants to do the weight reduction necessary to get to min weight. Getting a few points back makes it possible for non-diehards to compete in TT and have a chance of doing well. After all, that was the original idea behind time trials - bring your street car and compete. plus some TT drivers race with other sanctioning bodies trying to stay legal in one means leaving LOTS of mods on the table with the other .... this isn't a complaint ( especially since I'm such a n00bie ) just an observation ... in my particular case I can't remove ANY interior part or the sunroof ... lots of points to play with and not able to take advantage of them Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
retlaw Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 Your TTF* base class at 2529/96hp = 26.3 doesn't look so good 96? I think they were rated at 140hp at the crank by Honda/Acura from the factory. I have the JDM version of the same base model engine that is rated at 142ps (basically 140hp). my '01 Integra LS stock ( with a K&N filter) pulled 105 at the wheels on a DynaJet 1yr old late spring at about 70° FWIW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
retlaw Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 How many people advance up to TT and aren't using a RA1/888/NT01 at a minimum? What about making it lower in points (3/4) drop the 10pt tires to (6/7) and leave the 13 PT tire and slicks alone. It wouldn't affect the guys running them but would give the others more points to use. This would also help the PT/enduro guys that are using the 7/10 tires currently on building consistent cars and not 1 lap cars how many people in TT run "hard" street tires ? again I'm brand new to this but even in DE 3 & 4 you seldom saw "hard" street tires Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varkwso Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 How many people advance up to TT and aren't using a RA1/888/NT01 at a minimum? What about making it lower in points (3/4) drop the 10pt tires to (6/7) and leave the 13 PT tire and slicks alone. It wouldn't affect the guys running them but would give the others more points to use. This would also help the PT/enduro guys that are using the 7/10 tires currently on building consistent cars and not 1 lap cars how many people in TT run "hard" street tires ? again I'm brand new to this but even in DE 3 & 4 you seldom saw "hard" street tires Almost no one in SE since the flying STI at CMP. Soft street sometimes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
retlaw Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 How many people advance up to TT and aren't using a RA1/888/NT01 at a minimum? What about making it lower in points (3/4) drop the 10pt tires to (6/7) and leave the 13 PT tire and slicks alone. It wouldn't affect the guys running them but would give the others more points to use. This would also help the PT/enduro guys that are using the 7/10 tires currently on building consistent cars and not 1 lap cars how many people in TT run "hard" street tires ? again I'm brand new to this but even in DE 3 & 4 you seldom saw "hard" street tires Almost no one in SE since the flying STI at CMP. Soft street sometimes. that right there is reason enough to do away with the +2 for the "street" tire Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varkwso Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 ........that right there is reason enough to do away with the +2 for the "street" tire And subtract 2 from the rest at same time... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mpalmer Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 It is very unfortunate that the people in charge of PT keep changing the tire rules. We were building a Spec 944 over this past year, and were looking to race in PTE in place of some of our Spec races at some point over our midwest schedule this year and run PTE / E3 in Enduros this season with BFG's at 205/55/16 inches. Now we cannot, because of the new point addition's of +13 and the *14 slapped against us from the get go (which i think is insane, we only have 158 horsepower tops, why place 14 penalty, when a Boxter has only 7 slapped against it in PTE). We just made it with weight and with the tire in 2011 and we were getting ready for this 2012 season and to possibly run Nationals with the car, but not anymore. We are bumped all the way to PTD, at their base now. So for us to be competitive we have to throw a ton more modifications at it we didn't intend too; headers, chip, etc. So we are not going PT anymore and will stick with Spec 944 racing if we have too. It also screws us for Endurance racing. I don't expect any sympathy and don't want any, but you wonder why you have issue's growing the series especially in the Midwest. There are some of us that plan 1-2 years early on going into a certain series, and balanced rule books really help the business in the long run... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbrew8991 Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 I agree with you that a stable ruleset helps growth. I will say that fully understanding the series may also help you use it to your fullest advantage, just like your competition should/will. If you aren't going to do that, you're leaving time on the table. 1.) PTF** at 2780ish lbs is a far far better base class than PTE* at 2822lbs that the slowest Boxster has - other models are even worse off. You get a full running head start at PTE class, where the Boxster only has 12 points to spend and when good tires cost 10-13pts, that's not many. You have roughly twice as many points to play with and still have both cars end up maxed out in PTE. About what I would expect given the differences in each car. I don't recall the early 2.5L Boxsters being very powerful at all either, your 944-specs with their small power upgrades may be more powerful than a stock Boxster, and then the Boxster doesn't have many points to spend to increase their power either... If you want to illustrate that you feel the base class is off for the 944s, you may need to look at different data points and/or different cars to make a better case. Knowing PTF cars fairly well, knowing some PTE stuff, and being around some 944-Specs on track here & there that base class seems right to me. But I don't have access to as much data as the rules writers do, nor do I write the rules to boot. 2.) Spec cars usually select inexpensive parts which many not be worth their full points value. Where you can save yourself some points is in the power section by doing a hp/weight reclass that is spelled out in the ruleset. This is also the only way to get points back for being over your car's listed minimum weight. Depending on what weight you're aiming for, and what power your typical 944-Spec makes, you can lock in at maybe one asterix lower and save yourself not only those 7 points by dropping an asterix and also no longer be charged for power points. Or just the latter. Or save a bit on weight reduction points or something. You only need to save a few to get the BFGs back on your cars, right? Not knowing the full specifics on a 944-Spec I can't give you much more of an educated guess. But post up what those cars typically weigh with driver and what they typically dyno at and we can try and run some educated guesses to see if we can't save you some points - just like the real PT cars are doing. To make it offical you'll need to run it by the Nat'l Director of course. That said, if I really wanted to win E3 with a 944, I probably wouldn't select very many of the Spec parts... but that sounds expensve and makes my wallet hurt so I'll stop thinking about that now. Heh! 3.) As tires improve, cars evolve, and so on it does make sense for some year-to-year reevaluations of things. You can't expect this ruleset to work if everything is locked in for a decade or more. But also you're right in that we can't go too far the other way and change way too much year-to-year. This past season the changes were the smallest I've seen since I've been running in TT (same car-classing ruleset as PT) since 2005. That's 7 (seven) seasons. Just saying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mpalmer Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 Hmmm...... That's not a bad idea. If i can get some kind of break on something, maybe it won't hurt as much as we are adding up now. Let me go over our information and I will post it here. I really wanted to race some PTE especially in Enduros this year in some form, and did get discouraged by the tire situation. I will post our calculations here: Base is a PTF *14 Tires - +13 BFG's and a -1 due to size 205 instead of 215 Total +12 Weight - Base weight 2844 lbs. - Competition weight 2675lbs. = 169 lbs. + 11 Engine - +2 - Non-OEM Exhaust Piping downstream from header (straight pipe) + 1 - Cat Removed. Total + 3 Drivetrain - 0 - can't change due to Spec rules Suspension - +2 - Non-BTM Coil Springs +2 - Modified Anit-roll bars (Sway Bars) Total +4 Brake - Chassis - 0 Aerodynamics - 0 Roll Cages - 0 Total Equals = 42 42 - 39 = 3 point difference, which was the tire difference from 2011 - 2012. +3 is what BFG was bumped too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cucamelsmd15 Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 ........that right there is reason enough to do away with the +2 for the "street" tire And subtract 2 from the rest at same time... Im ok with that. And, can someone enlighten us to the STI at CMP? I dont recall that... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbrew8991 Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 3 points to save is changing/adding a ballast plate at the very least without doing any of the hp/weight reclass emails back & forth with Greg. Are you sure you don't need to be taking points in the drivetrain section for a limited slip? If it's an option, its points even if it was the otherwise factory piece on the sport package or whatever. This prevents us all from having to seek out special limited edition models like other clubs seem to want you to do at times. All Miatas out there take points for their LSDs, heh. Same with some of the body parts - SM and SE30s get dinged for the front lip that most cars choose to run. If I were you, I would send in a request to Greg and see if you can't lock in PTF** at 2657lbs and be given back a Dynojet WHP number you would need to stay under and see how that compares to what a typical 944-Spec dynos at. That would let you not have to juggle weight, parts, or anything else and also save you 3 points from the engine section that you need to gain back the BFG's points-increase this season. Once you use the reclass, power points don't apply as long as you always dyno under the limit you're given (similar to how you always have to be above minimum weight). If you're going to have to take 3 more points over your math for the LSD, or any more points for Aero stuff, then I would see what the #s are for PTF* at 2657lbs and have Greg give you a whp #, and also give Greg PTF* and the whp # that 944-Specs dyno under and have Greg give you a weight. Then pick which route to look at - restricting/detuning the car slightly if needed (should also increase fuel mileage if done right - good for enduros!) to stay under the whp cap for that route, or adding a bit of weight if needed to meet the # Greg gives you and keep the rest of the points packages constant with 944-Spec stuff. You'll save 7 points from dropping one of the asterix to use for the extra parts that you didn't account for, and also not take the 3 power points you need to drop to stay on the BFGs as desired. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mpalmer Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 Crap, Forgot about the LSD..legit mistake, since our car didn't come with one. We did get an LSD this off season, but haven't installed it yet. If I could get my LSD installed in time for the season that would be great. It wasn't on my original package, so it wasn't on my calculation sheet. I would like to use it, since I do have it. So the LSD is a plus +3. Other than that there is no aero add on's or changes, no brake changes, nor any suspension stuff. Wow, let me look over all of the information you typed. Thank you for all of the help...and if I have anymore questions I will post them here.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clydesdale Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 (edited) It is very unfortunate that the people in charge of PT keep changing the tire rules. We were building a Spec 944 over this past year, and were looking to race in PTE in place of some of our Spec races at some point over our midwest schedule this year and run PTE / E3 in Enduros this season with BFG's at 205/55/16 inches. Now we cannot, because of the new point addition's of +13 and the *14 slapped against us from the get go (which i think is insane, we only have 158 horsepower tops, why place 14 penalty, when a Boxter has only 7 slapped against it in PTE). We just made it with weight and with the tire in 2011 and we were getting ready for this 2012 season and to possibly run Nationals with the car, but not anymore. We are bumped all the way to PTD, at their base now. So for us to be competitive we have to throw a ton more modifications at it we didn't intend too; headers, chip, etc. So we are not going PT anymore and will stick with Spec 944 racing if we have too. It also screws us for Endurance racing. I don't expect any sympathy and don't want any, but you wonder why you have issue's growing the series especially in the Midwest. There are some of us that plan 1-2 years early on going into a certain series, and balanced rule books really help the business in the long run... If the car is Spec 944 then the endurance tires are unlimited other than the spec wheel size restriction. My guess is that you are trying to class as PTE because you could theoretically make a more competitive car than Spec 944 but still run in E3, is that somewhat accurate? I don't see enough PTE or PTD competition in the midwest to make it worth your time, I think you're better off sticking with Spec 944 anyway. You'll get no sympathy from me as my B class car slots into E0 with the ST2 cars [edit: looks like ST2 is now ES for 2012, yay!] Edited February 21, 2012 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ILIKETODRIVE Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 Hmmm......That's not a bad idea. If i can get some kind of break on something, maybe it won't hurt as much as we are adding up now. Let me go over our information and I will post it here. I really wanted to race some PTE especially in Enduros this year in some form, and did get discouraged by the tire situation. I will post our calculations here: Base is a PTF *14 Tires - +13 BFG's and a -1 due to size 205 instead of 215 Total +12 Weight - Base weight 2844 lbs. - Competition weight 2675lbs. = 169 lbs. + 11 Engine - +2 - Non-OEM Exhaust Piping downstream from header (straight pipe) + 1 - Cat Removed. Total + 3 Drivetrain - 0 - can't change due to Spec rules Suspension - +2 - Non-BTM Coil Springs +2 - Modified Anit-roll bars (Sway Bars) Total +4 Brake - Chassis - 0 Aerodynamics - 0 Roll Cages - 0 Total Equals = 42 42 - 39 = 3 point difference, which was the tire difference from 2011 - 2012. Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm counting 44. 14+12=26. 26+11=37. 37+3=40. 40+4=44. Plus LSD = 47. Also, I know some 944 swap 5th gear for the shorter 5th. Did you do that or did yours come with the shorter 5th? Either way I know you can fit into PTE, just depends on what weight Greg wants to assign you. IF you can get reclassed PTE at roughly that weight (or a little higher): PTE base class +2 springs +2 sway bars +3 LSD (+3 gear ratio swap) +6 205 R1 (+13 for R1 and -7 for size) = +13 (+16 with 5th gear swap) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbrew8991 Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 ohh, interesting - go up a base class for more of a tire credit & also make sure you don't have to change your spec weight & power. Just stay under 19 total is all.... hmmm... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ILIKETODRIVE Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 ohh, interesting - go up a base class for more of a tire credit & also make sure you don't have to change your spec weight & power. Just stay under 19 total is all.... hmmm... That's what I did. Went from F* to E due to the fact that I knew I wanted to run a really light but nearly stock power car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mpalmer Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 Nope you are right it is 44. I was playing around with the weight when I was going through my form and rule book and typing all at the same time. Plus LSD is 47. We didn't change the 5th gear ratio at all, it already came in with the short 5th with it being a late - 80's; so no points there. If you can get reclassed PTE at roughly that weight (or a little higher): PTE base class +2 Straight pipe +1 Cat removed +2 springs +2 sway bars +3 LSD - Standard 5th gear. +6 205 R1 (+13 for R1 and -7 for size) = +16 Assessment is what I can come up with in calculations. My rims are not Spec Rims, so that is why I am going through all of this, and the tires are already purchased. Plus tire prices for 205 16's are about $50 bucks cheaper than the 225 / 15's that would fit on our spec rims. It is still a 3 point difference, but in the better direction. Who would I have to talk to from a director point? Does anyone know? Thank you all for the help and input.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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