Cobra4B Posted July 3, 2012 Share Posted July 3, 2012 I emailed Greg directly last week when I first bumped this thread. No response as of yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cobra4B Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 Any revised ETA on this ruling Greg? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobzdar Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 Is the goal to even the performance between tires or to essentially force everyone to run the hoosiers to be competitive? If it's the latter, the rules are fine. If it's the former, it's obvious the rules need adjustment. I haven't run TT yet as I'm still getting some experience in the car, but all advice I've gotten is to run the A6's if at all possible and then use whatever points are left for mods if I want any chance of being competitive. I have the truck/trailer/rims to do so (and points on the car with some small changes), but I will not be gutting my car and turning it into a race car to drop the 300lbs it'd take to get to minimum weight, so it's not a real concern for me. That being said, there really doesn't appear to even be a tire option if any degree of competitiveness is desired, though. That's not necessarily a bad thing given the contingency, but if you are trying to get to the point of competitiveness, having to spend double the money on tires of some of the other options to have any hope of getting that contingency can be tough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bnjmn Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 There are other competitive tires, but none with contingency which is why A6s are favored. Why do you suggest that you need to spend twice as much? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurboShortBus Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 but I will not be gutting my car and turning it into a race car to drop the 300lbs it'd take to get to minimum weight If this is the case, then why haven't you requested a base reclass yet? Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlfpkrcn1 Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 I think Greg is waiting for at least 40 pages Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobzdar Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 There are other competitive tires, but none with contingency which is why A6s are favored. Why do you suggest that you need to spend twice as much? A set of A6's for my car run over $1300. Other options $400 cheaper (Z214 for example), so it's not 2x, but 40-50% more. If I win some tires, it makes up the difference, but that's probably not happening right away. I could use the cheaper tires or take-offs until I feel I could be competitive, so not a huge deal and not really a complaint. If I were worried about cost I suppose I'd use a different car, anyway. I was more trying to understand the philosophy behind the tire rule than any kind of complaint. If I get to the point where I want to be competitive and try to win and the only real choice is an A6, that's fine. There just doesn't seem to be any other way to do it. There's no way to put a 120-200 treadwear tire on my car and make up the 6-9 seconds a lap (give or take) using those 11 points on mods, which makes me think the tire adjustment is off if the goal is really to make it a choice and not a requirement to use the A6 or similar class tire. Maybe there are other cars where it would be possible? I will probably try to reclass if I'm ready for TT next year, we'll see. I'm looking at about 315whp/3300lbs, but given my car I'll probably end up in the same class, just maybe without a star. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cobra4B Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 The trick is to win I haven't bought a tire since early 2011. People asked me why I was running scrubs at NARRA last weekend... because I hadn't won any tires in a bit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boomn29 Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 The trick is to win I haven't bought a tire since early 2011. People asked me why I was running scrubs at NARRA last weekend... because I hadn't won any tires in a bit I didn't buy any since 2009. But I've won exactly 0 this year even with 4 wins and a 2nd in 5 TT events. With last years contingencies I'd have won 5 tires; with the 2009 rules I'd have won 9. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varkwso Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 The trick is to win I haven't bought a tire since early 2011. People asked me why I was running scrubs at NARRA last weekend... because I hadn't won any tires in a bit I didn't buy any since 2009. But I've won exactly 0 this year even with 4 wins and a 2nd in 5 TT events. With last years contingencies I'd have won 5 tires; with the 2009 rules I'd have won 9. And very few are currently buying Hoosiers new because the contingency is reduced. It is back down to winning a coffee mug. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cobra4B Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 Hoosier is still the only real game in town for TT though. My eventual plan is 245 As for TTA and 275 BFGs for ST2 W2W. Unless these tire points all change... which is what I'm waiting so impatiently for Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brkntrxn Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 And very few are currently buying Hoosiers new because the contingency is reduced. It is back down to winning a coffee mug. I wonder if Hoosier has seen a net monetary decrease yet? "lots of tire sales" - "lots of free tires" > or = or < "less tires sales" - "less free tires" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drivinhardz06 Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 A set of A6's for my car run over $1300. Other options $400 cheaper (Z214 for example), so it's not 2x, but 40-50% more. There's no way to put a 120-200 treadwear tire on my car and make up the 6-9 seconds a lap (give or take) using those 11 points on mods, which makes me think the tire adjustment is off If you think $1300 is expensive for 6 secs a lap, wait till you see how much speed hardware costs for 6-9 secs lap (aero, shocks, testing, etc) that you'll need with street tires Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbrew8991 Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 sure they're 6 sec a lap faster when new, but... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bnjmn Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 sure they're fast when new until they after they cord, but they are still cheaper than constantly running sticker R6s (which quickly turn into rocks) or having sticky street tires shaved and burning through those at an alarming rate... fixed. A tip if tire wear is worrying you: Use your stickier tires during the faster (cooler) sessions. Use something else in the slower sessions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ninetyfourintegra Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 Perhaps its now optimizing the car for contingencies? To win 4 events and no tires doesn't seem to add up. I'm considering changing my plans to run more TT than PT because the payout is better. In general, in our region, its been win PT win 1 finish otherwise win none. Win TT win 2 and finish down to 3rd win 1. If I could back up some points/mods and squeeze into the top of the next class down and have a run for contingencies I would make a play for it. At the moment, I am getting enough where I'm at to not have to do that but... I'm also lucky in that I run a staggered setup and the SM6 is a relatively cheap tire, so I can claim my 'expensive' (to me) tires off of contingency, even if its only 1 per race. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperkins Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 I could be wrong, but it doesn't seem like NASA is all too concerned with Hoosier's dwindling contingency program. You would think it would be the other way around and that they would be lobbying hard to keep them in the game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brkntrxn Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 I could be wrong, but it doesn't seem like NASA is all too concerned with Hoosier's dwindling contingency program. You would think it would be the other way around and that they would be lobbying hard to keep them in the game. Agreed. Purple Crack is what got me to TT with NASA. I can win plaques with easier competition TTing with other clubs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobzdar Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 A set of A6's for my car run over $1300. Other options $400 cheaper (Z214 for example), so it's not 2x, but 40-50% more. There's no way to put a 120-200 treadwear tire on my car and make up the 6-9 seconds a lap (give or take) using those 11 points on mods, which makes me think the tire adjustment is off If you think $1300 is expensive for 6 secs a lap, wait till you see how much speed hardware costs for 6-9 secs lap (aero, shocks, testing, etc) that you'll need with street tires Forget the cost, but 11 points gets you 6 seconds a lap. No other 11 point combination in the rules gets you that unless your car is jacked to start with - in which case you wouldn't be competitive anyway. I guess I see the rules as essentially: you can bring a car with some minor mods and street tires and at least run, but just have no chance at being competitive. You get to fill the field so the r-comp guys can get some contingency. In reality, if you take any of the cars running A6's and put them on 200 treadwear tires, would they even be competitive in the next class down? Even with the power/weight ratio of their current class? That's why I asked what the point of the tire rule was. Is it to even out the tires? It sure doesn't seem like it or there'd be a point difference between 200 treadwear and r-comps commensurate with their performance difference, which would be somewhere around 30 points (or at least one full class), not 1/3 that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drivinhardz06 Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 Forget the cost, but 11 points gets you 6 seconds a lap. No other 11 point combination in the rules gets you that unless your car is jacked to start with - in which case you wouldn't be competitive anyway. I guess I see the rules as essentially: you can bring a car with some minor mods and street tires and at least run, but just have no chance at being competitive. You get to fill the field so the r-comp guys can get some contingency. In reality, if you take any of the cars running A6's and put them on 200 treadwear tires, would they even be competitive in the next class down? Even with the power/weight ratio of their current class? That's why I asked what the point of the tire rule was. Is it to even out the tires? It sure doesn't seem like it or there'd be a point difference between 200 treadwear and r-comps commensurate with their performance difference, which would be somewhere around 30 points (or at least one full class), not 1/3 that. the cost does enter into it, especially if you start counting them at 30 pts, the tires get even cheaper!. you can spend $20,000 on penske shocks, carbon aero, springs, close ratio gearboxes, testing, or you can spend $1500 on tires and pick up the same? I'd be buying tires all day. I'm not sure there is that much spread in the lap times, and it's very track/car dependent. Lower hp cars that already have a very high % of the lap at WOT are only affected by 2 areas of the track, braking and cornering. higher hp cars that struggle with corner exit grip take advantage of 3 areas of the lap, braking, cornering, AND corner exit., ie, a bigger spread of lap times over slower tires, since the WOT % of the lap goes up drastically and the lap times plummet. IOW, I would expect an A6 to be X secs faster over brand X of tire in TTE, and I would expect the A6 to be X secs times 2x or x3 in a TTA car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
949Racing Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 RE: A6 expense and points value I'm on both sides of this fence. Our team does enduros, T25, PT and TT. Depending on the event, we will run Nitto NT01's, SM6 (R6) or A6. Enduros The NT01 is the clear choice. The R6 may be a touch faster out of the box but within 10-15 minutes degs to be equal to the NT01. After the first 2 hrs, the R6 degs faster than the NT01. Here the current points make sense for our team Sprint The A6 holds the best speed/$ ratio for sprints. Despite having to buy tires more often, the $ spent for the extra 1-2s over R6/NT01 is cheaper that finding it elsewhere. Here the current points make sense for our team but just barely. I'd rather be able to run a longer lasting tire and still be competitive at the national level. I can run NT01's regionally but would get smoked at Mid Ohio in Sept. TT Again the A6 is king. The trick is to simply not use them until you are ready. Many of those that have issue with the cost and shorter life of the A6 seem more likely to leave the tires on all day. We will set the car up and practice on a harder compound tire then swap to the A6's for just a few laps to get the fast lap. The last two years I have not run A6's as e have been fast enough on NT01's. In the past doing TT with another organization, our A6's would get about 4 laps per day then go right into bags. Doing this I could stretch a set of A6's out for several months. A relative bargain utilized that way, particularly if you are winning tires. For the driver that wants/needs more seat time on the tires and either has too small fields/isn't fast enough to win tires, A6's suddenly become a make or break economic factor in participating at all. Here the current points make sense for our team but it's a PITA and only works if you are winning. Thus, we run SM6 and gamble whether we will win regional TT's or not. In summation, I don't have a strong opinion one way or another. As a team owner focused on endurance racing, I like the points the way they are. As the occasional TT competitor, it would be nice to be able to be cut my tire budget in half and still be competitive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottBell Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 So after a couple pages of Hoosier contingency discussion, what's up with the rule change? For "oversize" tires how about basing the points on the compound and do a technical bulletin like with the 255 Hoosier? BFG doesn't make that many sizes, but I agree, they sure are wide. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toomchpwr Posted August 2, 2012 Share Posted August 2, 2012 Our region struggles to get 5 in a class, let alone 7. We have a national champ in the region (Ben in TTA), so I rarely get a chance for tires behind his car. To keep costs down, it would be great if the A6 (and similar tires) were given more points or just removed from the equation. R6’s last a lot longer and therefore are cheaper. The R6’s also allow you to stay out in the session longer and have more fun and learn more since you are getting more seat time in a session (as opposed to running 3-5 laps in the a6’s if you are trying to preserve their life). If Hoosier changes their contingency to give 1 tire to 2nd place when there are 5 in class, that would help a lot. But that is for me personally. I still feel the R6 should be the go to tire the way the toyo ra1 was for spec miata. Keep everyone on a level playing field while keeping tire costs down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cobra4B Posted August 2, 2012 Share Posted August 2, 2012 R6’s last a lot longer and therefore are cheaper. The R6’s also allow you to stay out in the session longer and have more fun and learn more since you are getting more seat time in a session (as opposed to running 3-5 laps in the a6’s if you are trying to preserve their life). This is inaccurate. R6s take longer to cord, but they turn to rocks much faster. A6s are faster for a longer period of time. If you're looking for more seat time in a session go back to HPDE. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
retlaw Posted August 3, 2012 Share Posted August 3, 2012 actually you don't have to go "back" to HPDE ... if you're not in the running for "free" tires then switch to something else .... like the Hankook Z214's different compounds available ( and considerably cheeper than the Hoosiers) and while they're not quite as quick as the Hoosiers, they'll last quite a bit longer and you can run the compound that's best for you to get the track time you want ... without having to go "back" to being pointed by ( assuming the person in front remembers to look in their mirrors ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.