2013 Rules Consideration--Bump of +13 Point Tire Category

[brkntrxn]

Greg,

 

First, thank you for the 12 months we have to debate this. Second, I concur with the others if the fact that the constantly changing rules are pushing people to ST instead of PT/TT. There are multiple threads on other forums where people just say, "What a headache, I'll just build my car to STx or TTS instead." I fully understand the need to evolve the rules, but making changes to the tire equation messes with our entire setups year after year. The only reason I jumped into NASA TTA from other club Time Trial racing is because Mark/Scott/Jason had proven formulas for podium cars. As well as the Hoosier contingency. If we drive more people away from TT, then the natural progression to PT is going to suffer.

 

Heck, as you know, I have aero components in my garage for the 2012 season that now I cannot use because of the recent tire change (not that I am arguing the 255 ruling). I can go down to a 245 and use them, but that tire is 50mm smaller than my class tire. Or I can put on the aero, buy 315/335s and go run S/U/R or STx and leave behind all of the changes that continually occur with PT/TT.

 

My other concern is the fact (and Kim mentioned it), a * 7pt car cannot run a class tire in the Hoosier A6 compound.

 

What I would REALLY like to see is the lesser tires get a decrease in points and even negative points for street tires as suggested by Ken. That opens up the creativity for someone to build a car around a tire that lasts more than a couple of sessions. I'd love to switch back to a 100 treadwear tire and throw some suspension and power at the car.

 

That also allows a person to have a set of larger tires on the trailer and slap them on for when they bump up to a higher class for car counts and potentially be competitive. And I am specifically thinking an A or B car going up to S or ST.

 

 

-Kevin

Edited January 22, 2012 by Guest

[Markus]

My comment in general: I agree with Greg that TT/PT is a new series and the rules did need overhauled from the initial 2005-2006 ruleset. That being said, things seem like they have been pretty stable the last 2-3 years. There weren't any major changes in my opinion for 2011 or now again for 2012. Just some minor housekeeping, like that darn supersize 255.

 

I guess I just don't get all the freakout reactions about rules changing....has it really been that bad?

 

- Mark

[BlkGt3]

I always thought the 3 point spread between R6 and like over the NT01, RA1, R888 etc is to close. Probably should be in the 5 point range between the 2 classes of tires. IMHO YMMV

 

Peter

[dans2k]

When I started TT we'd go out and run 20minute sessions, 6-7 laps. I might run my best lap on lap 5 or just go out and mess about on track or practice. Now everyone runs A6's its 2-4laps and its realy intense. The contingency is great but you don't always have enough in class to win and they are expensive tires that don't last long.

 

I don't dislike the way it is not but it'd be nice to have a shot at building a competitive car without 13points tires and maybe easier for people to come and join in.

 

What about back to 2 points for streets, 5points for RA1 etc, 7-8? for R6 and 13 for A6?

 

for me the gap between good streets and RA1 etc isn't worth the points I'd like to try and run a 275 street tire or something

[zigspeed10]

1. I am all for changing up the tire points. I don't think it is necessary to create closer competition because I bet most if not all competitors on the podium at nationals were on A6's. If the A6 tire points get jackup up high enough to prohibit the use of them, 2013 nationals podiums will most likely be all on the same "X" tire. I think it would be great to buy a set of tires that don't get corded in one weekend. Look at it this way, the less money I give to hoosier the more money I give to NASA for more track time. I know of a TT competitor that is going back to HPDE because the money spent on tires to be competitive is too high. Also I don't think changing the tire rules will make people jump to ST because if you can afford to compete in ST then you can afford to put some stockish parts back on your car to stay in PT.

 

2. Weight additions were mentioned. Be carefull because I know there are a lot of C5 corvettes that have roll cages built to .095 wall tubing spec and adding too much weight would make the cars illegal.

[BillB]

Are there any competitors running hard street tires (or even soft street tires for that matter)? If the gap between A6s and other R-compound tires is the problem I think the easy thing to do would be to make the hard and soft street tires both 0 points. The change to the street tires affects basically no one and the other tires could be bumped down to create the gap that you are looking for. It also makes the street tires and track day tires worth thinking about again without destroying the classing of the tires with the best contingency available.

[Cobra4B]

1. Spend all my time and money optimizing my car for 255s then 255s go away.

 

2. Buy new wheels, exchange tires with Hoosier for 245s and setup my car around those... Intake, cat delete and weight reduction etc.

 

3. If the rules change again where I have to cometely redo my setup yet again then I'm going TTS/ST2.... I don't run that class because of the costs. But if I have to keep spending money in TTA/PTA then I'll just play in ST2 with a half-assed car.

[speedengineer]

In my opinion, +13 is already a TON of points to take for tires. If that goes up, you pretty much force everyone who wants to run them into the next faster run group... Like many others here, I feel that any inequality between compounds should be corrected by reducing points on the slower tires, rather than increasing points on the faster tires.

 

Also, I understand that rule changes must occur in order to keep things balanced, but it sure would be nice to not have the hassle of worrying about HUGE changes occurring every year or two. It is time and money intensive to have to significantly alter the setup on your car. One of the ideas of the Time Trial program is that it's supposed to be simple and cheap to progress from HPDE to TT. People will be less likely to want to run the program if they realize they're going to have to spend loads of money and effort all over again every season.

[drivinhardz06]

In my opinion, +13 is already a TON of points to take for tires. If that goes up, you pretty much force everyone who wants to run them into the next faster run group..

 

I wouldn't mind bumping up to another class, if it was a points based class (ie, restricted). What sucks for the A guys is the next class is ST2/TTS, which is "sky is the limit" and would cost a million dollars.

 

Weight additions were mentioned. Be carefull because I know there are a lot of C5 corvettes that have roll cages built to .095 wall tubing spec and adding too much weight would make the cars illegal.

 

You can run any weight you want in ST2/TTS and based on my nats dyno pulls I paid for, I could run 100+ lbs lighter in TTS

[brkntrxn]

I wouldn't mind bumping up to another class, if it was a points based class (ie, restricted). What sucks for the A guys is the next class is ST2/TTS, which is "sky is the limit" and would cost a million dollars.

 

 

Mark nailed it. If the A6 goes UP in points, then it will force any * car to go up a class. For an "A" car, this puts us into the bottom rung of the "S" class. For those of you in the lower classes, you probably do not realize exactly how much money is invested in the consistent podium winning "S" cars. We are talking multiple thousands on aero, lightweight body panels, rear ends, transmissions, etc. It truly becomes a spending war if you want to win.

 

Would any of you "B" guys like to come play with our C5Z06s? Same scenario.

 

I remember back when the literature around the Time Trial program mentioned something about "racing your street car". If we can take the harder compound tires to lower points and street tires to negative points, then someone with a "hot" street car and a few aftermarket parts (ie exhaust, shocks, springs, ect) can still come play in their natural class and have fun and potentially be competitive.

 

It would make me happy if TT were limited to a 100 treadwear tire and nothing softer. That would keep Time Trials as the great transition between HPDE and Wheel-to-Wheel Racing.

 

I'll play in any sandbox NASA builds.

 

 

-Kevin

[sperkins]

It would make me happy if TT were limited to a 100 treadwear tire and nothing softer.

Bye-bye Hoosier and any other potential rubber sponsor.

[Cobra4B]

I just noticed your sig..... LOLOLOL

[brkntrxn]

Yeah, I know the ramifications of that statement, Scott. So go talk to Nitto and get them onboard. Or get Hoosier to make a 100 treadwear tire. Oversimplified yes, but it takes away a LOT of the variables.

[gpeluso]

Hello,

I am a racer and not a TTer.... Tires are completely different for both.....only need 1 great lap in TT(which is very difficult and many racer can't accomplish) but in racing you may need 40min of stable tires. In other racing bodies I have used A compound for qualifing but R compound for the race. So bottom line... a TT car should be prepared differently than a PT car....however the same rules apply. I personally see a 2 headed problem in general.

 

For TTers Compound is much more important....I see less cases in PT that A's are an advantage in hot 40 min races.

 

For PTers like myself I feel the real defect is BASE TIRE SIZE... I believe this keeps hondas and miatas the biggest advantage... Bigger cars like my BMW base class is PTF and weighs over 3,000 lbs...... on size alone how can someone compete in a race with a bigger car on SMALLER tires when a snaller car is on BIGGER tires....but still follow the same HP/weight restrictions (my example is using a 1999 323 bmw vs a 1999 miata)

 

Weight should be a determination in tire size for points.....I spend too much in points for tires alone when miata and honda guys get negative points for running a the right size tire for their race car.............I really need a 245 and they run a 205... THIS IS THE PROBLEM....

 

The other solution would be to adjust some base weights.....If you have given a MAX hp/weight what's the problem with that??????

 

PT and TT would see more makes and models this way.....lower hp big cars have real issues here.... I am not going to beat my head against the wall and I understand all cars can not be guarrenteed to be a winnning solution.

I am thowing in the towel with the bmw and going to run my rx7.......

 

Greg Peluso

[jason]

TT is a great place to compete with your street car. Trying to devise a rule set that would allow a street car to win against a fully prepped car is pissing up hill.

[Cobra4B]

Hello,

I am a racer and not a TTer.... Tires are completely different for both.....only need 1 great lap in TT(which is very difficult and many racer can't accomplish) but in racing you may need 40min of stable tires. In other racing bodies I have used A compound for qualifing but R compound for the race. So bottom line... a TT car should be prepared differently than a PT car....however the same rules apply. I personally see a 2 headed problem in general.

 

For TTers Compound is much more important....I see less cases in PT that A's are an advantage in hot 40 min races.

Just as a point of reference I raced ST2 on 255 A6 scrubs at VIR in October and the tires were fine. Had two 25 minute races on Saturday and the hour long fun race on Sunday.

 

I have no desire to run Rs for anything. Hoosier screwed up and sent me a set of Rs and I didn't check before mounting them. I was at RA and didn't see they were Rs until someone was checking out my car and said, "Oh you run Rs?". They were 2 seconds a lap slower even when brand new stickers.

[gpeluso]

The key thing e you said was October ..... Maybe be true in your case...are you trying to put brake people??? Racing is different ...you can manage tires easier in TT. When passing and defending you can use tires up..

[Fixxxercask]

I run in TTB with a 350Z. My car is TTC base and I have 39 points on my car to stay in TTB. I definitely have no chance to compete in TTA if I had to bump up. My power/weight is far too low and I am about maxed out on power without tearing down the engine and dumping thousands into rebuilding it. I don't have money for that. If A6's got bumped up to 16, I would just remove 3 points of weight or something from my car and still run them. I am not sure what they would have to bump them up to for me to justify not running them. I know this effects other cars worse than me. I ran the 255 "cheater tire" last year and I just made a few adjustments and I am going to run the 275's this year since they are the same amount of points now. Again though, I know this effects some cars more than mine.

 

Like someone said on here earlier though. I will play in whatever sandbox they come up with. I just hope they don't make too big of changes that I have to sell all my wheels and buy others or spend 1000's to meet new rules. I can't afford to do that every year. I will end up going back to just fun track days with other clubs or just run a couple NASA TT events per year.

[sperkins]

I just hope they don't make too big of changes that I have to sell all my wheels and buy others or spend 1000's to meet new rules. I can't afford to do that every year. I will end up going back to just fun track days with other clubs or just run a couple NASA TT events per year.

Bingo.

[Varkwso]

Any bump up in tire needs to be accompanied by adjustment in base tire size. As someone mentioned the current rules favor light small cars and punish the 3000 + cars.

[jcindric]

CONCERNING THE POST THAT MOST TT CARS ARE STREET CARS, walk the grid in the GL and MW regions, not many of the cars are street legal.

BUT THIS IS A GREAT HOBBY!

HOPEFULLY, TT can continue to be as is since the competition is so great, but as I have said before, look at the prepared cars on the grid!

While I would not want Greg's job and I thank him for the post on tires, why don't we work on this all summer at the events so we know or suggest changes and follow thru!

BESIDES tires, there are several other factors to be addressed !

IF TT is for a street car.........why is the rulebook so long.

MAKE TT a division of the best working NASA rase rules but keep the field open for HPDE graduates, THEN they can modify their cars if they desire.

 

Jon M Cindric

WAS TTB

[obzezzed350]

Any bump up in tire needs to be accompanied by adjustment in base tire size. As someone mentioned the current rules favor light small cars and punish the 3000 + cars.

 

This.

[beerkat]

Why couldn't you limit TTA through F to 100 thread wear and Leave TTS/U/R run whatever they want. As for hurting the Hoosier continence very few of those that do TT win tires. Hoosier can still do TTS/U/R. maybe get Nitto for TTA/F.

[jcindric]

why limit the majority...........

Jon

[H4CRXSi]

why limit the majority...........

Jon

 

+1

 

In the Great Lakes and Midwest Regions, we have plenty of the lower classes that are winning tires at every event, and on several of these occassions they have even qualified for the top tier of the contingencies (7+ entries per class).

 

Regards,

 

Sam