Jump to content

2013 Rules Consideration--Bump of +13 Point Tire Category


Greg G.

Recommended Posts

$3000 free mod brakes is not making it cheaper to compete.

Eh... I paid $500 for my SL6R kit on the forums. They paid for themselves over my comp school VIR race weekend alone.

 

The $2-3k brakes are still worth something when you are ready to sell your car. A box full of backing plates and cracked stock rotors are not.

Exactly... good brakes aren't consumables. After tracking/racing C5s for years on stock brakes, and now having the SL6Rs up front since October, I have zero desire to mess around with stock calipers. Yes they're fine for TT, but I'd have gone through an entire set of stock pads in comp school alone.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 423
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

  • Cobra4B

    40

  • kbrew8991

    39

  • Fixxxercask

    33

  • Greg G.

    29

After thinking about this a bit more...

1) I still feel rules have been pretty stable the last 3 seasons.

2) I was initially on the fence, but now I could see making the A6's more points. I wouldn't mind it. Seems like most people could just run the same size R6's and maybe have a couple extra points to spare. So it's not like a whole new setup is really needed. Also as mentioned by others - A6's are not necessarily always absolutely faster than R6's, they build their speed in different ways. IE quick than they overheat, which leads to 1-2 lap shootouts, greater chances of someone pulling an assclown move early on, and guys doing cooldowns on lap 3 and messing up laps 4-6 for the guys who have set up their cars to be more consistent over the session. So yeah, in a way, I might be for penalizing the super fast/inconsistent tires in favor of more stable tires.

3) In regard to Hoosier sponsorship, they have been great to us. If A6's go to +16 I'm sure many people will just switch to the R6's and still chase contingency. Yeah sure some guys might try NT01's or BFG's but that is the nice thing about PT/TT - we have a choice, and can optimize our setup.

 

- Mark

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Why does everyone assume As are only good for a lap or two? I've done multiple 30+ min races on scrub As... they work the whole time. YMMV.

 

If an R6 is still +10 making a 275 (-20mm) +6 then I have to completely change my setup again vs. running 255 As and now 245 As. A +16 A6 means a TTA C5 Z06 would have to have no points mods other than 275 As.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't understand why you complain about changing your setup again. The way I see it you are experimenting with an unproven setup trying to run 245 A6's. The setup might be slower and you may be changing your setup even if the rules don't change. If the setup does work then everyone will have to follow to stay competitive. That recipe of really skinny short lived tires with extra points for more $$ mods does not encourage the average track guy to come to TT/PT. It also will make the series more expensive to compete in. The next thing you will see will be basically ST cars with full aero and suspension running even skinnier A6's. Rule changes will be required to keep that from happening. Maybe the smaller tires won't be faster but only time will tell.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hawk doesn't have anything for you? I pay $10 for my Hawk brake pads for my Wilwood setup with a $50 Hawk contingency.

I hate Hawk brake pads... ruined a $3000 set of CCWs back in the day. Never again.

 

 

You'd better get busy getting the word out. The thousands of drivers using Hawks need to know that they are sitting on a ticking time bomb.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Why does everyone assume As are only good for a lap or two? I've done multiple 30+ min races on scrub As... they work the whole time. YMMV.

 

If an R6 is still +10 making a 275 (-20mm) +6 then I have to completely change my setup again vs. running 255 As and now 245 As. A +16 A6 means a TTA C5 Z06 would have to have no points mods other than 275 As.

 

Annnnddddd..... You pick your frog, and live with the warts. I don't think there's any question that the A compound is faster in a TT format than the R compound, so it should be treated like any other go-fast mod. The only real question here is exactly what value should be assigned. No matter what number of points that winds up being, it'll annoy somebody. My car is a ** car, so that means that I CAN'T run race rubber of any sort and have mod points left to stay in the base class. Trackday tires, yes, but not real rubber.

 

I'll also chime in and support eliminating the +2 for aftermarket calipers. Brakes do NOT make you go faster, they just let you do it longer, and more safely. Bone stock calipers, rotors, and pads will certainly stop the car just as well as the latest unobtanium 12-piston brake setup, but they'll be junk and need to be replaced by the end of lap two... No, you don't need to have the super-brakes to podium, but it certainly does make a season championship run a lot less expensive.

 

Tire points credits? Ban them! If we can't get weight credits without going through a dyno reclass (and then, only with a base/+7/+14 scale), then we shouldn't allow width credits either. You can fine-tune a point or two with widths, but not so with weight unless you are running under minimums. The message there is that you need to have a gutted car to be competitive. That, right there, is a barrier to entry for the aspiring HPDE-3 or -4 driver looking to move up that has the family DD car to play with. The only way I was able to get my chassis under the MCW was to pull 50% of the interior, ditch the factory 23lb aluminum hood in favor of a lightweight fiberglass hood, race battery, lightweight radiator supports, aluminum race seats, and a few other things. Some chassis types simply CAN'T run the base tire size, so they effectively get an automatic credit. MOST cars from the factory can't get down to MCW without extensive modification, but they get no credit for hauling an extra 50,100, or 300lbs around with them? Doesn't seem right.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

MOST cars from the factory can't get down to MCW without extensive modification,

false - of the cars I've ever run TT with:

MR2s - slightly overweight stock, but nothing that couldn't be handled by an exhaust, pulling pass seat, and light wheels - ie easy easy stuff.

RX8 - had to run nearly full tank to meet weight, and that's with the big heavy 19"s that come with the R3 package.

And it's not like I'm some 100lb jockey or anything - in my time in TT (since 2005ish) I've weighed between 170-190lbs, then add in gear weight (helmet, H&N restraint, etc)

 

Of the cars I've weighed as a director most that don't take any weight points are fairly close, and usually without having to go crazy and gut the car just typical easy stuff like pulling a seat out, wheels, etc. The big exception that I can recall to that is the newer Mustangs I've put across the scales... so those might be the warts YOU are picking

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I agree with free brake calipers. Pads are free and they are the majority reason you stop better other than tires. So why are the calipers not free. If anything, pads should be points and not the calipers. I am not saying that should happen; just trying to make a point. I run aftermarket brakes just because I am more confident in them not failing. They don't really help me stop any better. My stock ones are single piston front and back. I get long pedal a lot too, due to pad knock back and my pads taper really bad. Running the Brembos that come on the track model version of my car, I take two points for them. They are 4 piston front and 2 piston rear. I get no pad taper and pad knock back is almost non-existent. Like I said, they don't really stop me better, they just last longer and instill confidence in me for braking. I would love for the rules to help out with keeping costs down and not allowing whoever has the most money wins. Not everyone needs to have aftermarket calipers, but some of us do because the OEM ones are terrible. Having aftermarket calipers is not going to gain me any amount of time. In fact, going to stock ones, save a ton of weight and that's weight off the wheels. Based on that, most aftermarket brakes are going to add weight especially because they run bigger rotors. Just another reason for them to be free.

Edited by Guest
Link to comment
Share on other sites

You'd better get busy getting the word out. The thousands of drivers using Hawks need to know that they are sitting on a ticking time bomb.

I really don't care... I run Carbotechs and they work great for me all without ruining wheels, suspension parts or paint (yes that matters on a race car when your OCD ). I considered the newer Hawk compounds, but after a thread I made on here the consensus was that the dust would still bond to everything if it got wet. Also, they're very hard on rotors. No thanks.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The message there is that you need to have a gutted car to be competitive. That, right there, is a barrier to entry for the aspiring HPDE-3 or -4 driver looking to move up that has the family DD car to play with.

Did you grow up playing "everyone gets a trophy" sports? So you're saying that you don't want to do what it takes to win so you want the rules changed to better suit you? TT is a great palce for the advanced HPDE guy who's tired of driving in circles to add in the new element of timing and a little competition. You can certainly go out and have fun in a street car racing against your own clock. However, if you want to win then be prepared to build the car.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

The next thing is brakes. What if we remove the +2 from brake calipers making them a free mod. This saves money and makes it easier for PT cars to do TT. It saves money because brake pads for aftermarket calipers are much thicker and cheaper then oem shape pads, also I'm starting this year on my third set of OEM calipers because the crappy slide rail calipers spread. And really what kind of lap time improvement is there if any.

Uh, no.

Making brakes calipers free pretty much forces everyone to spend $2,000 on a BBK upgrade. Stoptech kits don't grow on trees and it's something I would prefer to have new anyway for piece of mind. Pads in my size are ~$50 cheaper a set, so it'll take quite a while before the break-even point. I guarantee a BBK makes you faster on lap #1 and lap #20.

I dunno why we think we need to change rules to pull down the costs. This isn't a cost saving, it's forcing people to spend more. Take a previous rule change example; a few years back they made ECU tuning free, so every car now needs to spend time on the dyno because it's free and everyone else will. For me that meant heading 5 hrs to the closest AWD dyno...etc. (I know it wasn't to save costs, it was for lack of enforcement, but it ended up costing competitors more $).

Tires are NOT my biggest cost (thank you Hoosier contingency). I tracked everything last year and besides upgrades, my gas costs - travel to/from track & on-track together - about equaled my entry fees as the top 2.

 

.....Because of the short useful life of R6s (for TT), everyone will still be using stickers if the rules punish As. This is false $ savings.

Agreed. Like I said on the first page, there's already people rolling out 2-3 sets of stickered tires PER WEEKEND. I've ran both the R6 and A6, and there's definitely a bigger immediate falloff from an R6 after a few heatcycles (meaning stickered R6 is a big advantage over a used R6).

 

 

Things keeping me from TTS/U/R - having to buy things like a BBK & tons of Aero to compete.

Things I'd like about TTS/U/R - I can pick whatever power my car can safely make and just match the weight with it w/o stressing the entire setups.

Edited by Guest
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Having aftermarket calipers is not going to gain me any amount of time. In fact, going to stock ones, save a ton of weight and that's weight off the wheels. Based on that, most aftermarket brakes are going to add weight especially because they run bigger rotors. Just another reason for them to be free.

the brakes on both of my cars are quite honestly oversized for the speeds they're going to run in the classes I run them in (120ish whp MR2 in TTF, stock hp RX8 in TTD) Make brakes completely free and I'll cut unsprung weight from that area

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Uh, no.

Making brakes calipers free pretty much forces everyone to spend $2,000 on a BBK upgrade. Stoptech kits don't grow on trees and it's something I would prefer to have new anyway for piece of mind. Pads in my size are ~50 cheaper a set, so it'll take quite a while before the break-even point. I guarantee a BBK makes you faster on lap #1 and lap #20. A few years back they made ECU tuning free, so every car now needs to spend time on the dyno because it's free and everyone else will. For me that meant heading 5 hrs to the closest AWD dyno...etc.

What are you talking about? If I wasn't racing PTA/ST2 I'd just run the stock calipers as I had been. With proper SS lines, good pads and cooling they stop just fine. A BBK makes no difference in TT laps. It does allow the brakes to last a 30 minute race and greatly reduces pad consumables costs. It also makes it easier to set the car up for TT and PT at the same time vs. having two very different setups... i.e. one built to last vs. a hand grenade. I love how rotors, lines, fluid, pads and cooling are all free, but a better caliper using a bigger/cheaper pad is points.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Uh, no.

Making brakes calipers free pretty much forces everyone to spend $2,000 on a BBK upgrade. Stoptech kits don't grow on trees and it's something I would prefer to have new anyway for piece of mind. Pads in my size are ~50 cheaper a set, so it'll take quite a while before the break-even point. I guarantee a BBK makes you faster on lap #1 and lap #20. A few years back they made ECU tuning free, so every car now needs to spend time on the dyno because it's free and everyone else will. For me that meant heading 5 hrs to the closest AWD dyno...etc.

What are you talking about? If I wasn't racing PTS/ST2 I'd just run the stock calipers as I had been. With proper SS lines, good pads and cooling they stop just fine. A BBK makes no difference in TT laps. It does allow the brakes to last a 30 minute race and greatly reduces pad consumables costs. It also makes it easier to set the car up for TT and PT at the same time vs. having two very different setups... i.e. one built to last vs. a hand grenade.

Maybe because my car is 260 lbs more that yours? People keep complaining they have heavy cars; my min weight is 3263 - and with fresh pads in I can tell a huge difference vs ones that have a weekend on them, etc. I'll deal with it; that's part of my car.

 

Look at the top TTS cars. ALL of them have BBK's. It's not because it helps on lap #20, it's because it's an advantage on every lap. We don't need a bigger list of free mods at this stage in the game do we?

Edited by Guest
Link to comment
Share on other sites

My car is a ** car, so that means that I CAN'T run race rubber of any sort and have mod points left to stay in the base class. Trackday tires, yes, but not real rubber.

 

Because a ** car is pretty much screwed for anything. You fart, and you're in the next class. I always figured the reasoning behind a ** car is "your car really isn't par for the next class up car, but that's where you're going to compete, so we're giving you a few extra pts to play with when you get there"

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This thread is supposed to be about tires and specifically the A6's but I will throw a comment in about brakes. If you maintain roughly the same rotor diameter and piston area, the braking capacity will be the same. You need to change one or both to increase the braking capacity. On my car I went from 9" front rotors w/ single piston calipers, which were down right terrible, to 13" rotors and 6-piston calipers. Did the larger front brakes decrease my laps times......HELLS YEAH. Best 2pts (and $1k) spent.....for my car. Since I was spending the pts I maximized the mod, which everyone should do.....based on budget

 

Back to the tire talk and the new 20pt A6's.

Edited by Guest
Link to comment
Share on other sites

drivinhardz06

 

Post subject: Re: 2013 Rules Consideration--Bump of +13 Point Tire Categro Reply with quote

 

I don't think it would force everyone to do that at all. Maybe in a PT situation, but not TT. Your brakes on your car are already Brembos with 4 piston fronts and 2 piston rears I believe. That is plenty. I take two points for mine because my stock ones are single piston front and back. That is a huge difference. I would never buy a huge BBK. The track model Brembos are more than enough. I don't even care about having bigger brakes to be honest. I just want something with pistons on both sides to help alleviate pad knock back, which my Brembos do just that. I could care less how big they are. My pads taper like crazy on the stock ones and therefore don't last as long. I get full pad life out of my Brembos. If I upgraded to some huge Stoptech BBK ($3k-$6k). It's not going to be any faster for me around the track.

 

Maybe make them worth points in PT and not TT. PT would benefit from them a lot more in a 35-40 minute race. In TT, most people do a couple laps and come in because they are on A's. Even the ones that stay out the whopping 15 minute session will still be fine. Maybe notice a little fade towards the end of the session of that. I never got fade with my stock ones. Just unbelievable amounts of pad taper and knock back which makes for a long pedal.

 

The thread is supposed to be about tires, but I think it is pretty much going to turn into 2013 rule change suggestions...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I would be more than happy to let any of my competitors have the biggest baddest brakes they can throw on their car. I will NEVER say that's why they beat me because I know what I have on my car is enough for what I need and it's all a free mod.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Maybe make them worth points in PT and not TT. PT would benefit from them a lot more in a 35-40 minute race.

 

The nice thing about the TT-PT rules is you can jump from TT to PT with no changes. While I agree it's a totally different car set up, having different PT and TT rules would be a pain. TT-PT is a nice clean bridge.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Step back...big picture....if you look at the 2011 nationals results at all the classes, except for maybe 1 or 2 classes, all the top 3 times (and most beyond that) are very very close. In other words, there's not a lot broken.

 

Obviously the A6 is fast, but I still say a lot of the reason WHY you see so many cars on the A6 is the contingency.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Step back...big picture....if you look at the 2011 nationals results at all the classes, except for maybe 1 or 2 classes, all the top 3 times (and most beyond that) are very very close. In other words, there's not a lot broken.

 

Obviously the A6 is fast, but I still say a lot of the reason WHY you see so many cars on the A6 is the contingency.

Exactly... I'm still not clear what's driving the consideration of increasing the points on A6s? Everyone can run them and pushing people toward R6s won't save costs (they cost the same and they heat cycle out as fast as an A6 wears out).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

and pushing people toward R6s won't save costs (they cost the same and they heat cycle out as fast as an A6 wears out).

on a Corvette, and according to you SE/MA guys. There are more than just Corvettes that run in TT & PT.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

and pushing people toward R6s won't save costs (they cost the same and they heat cycle out as fast as an A6 wears out).

on a Corvette, and according to you SE/MA guys. There are more than just Corvettes that run in TT & PT.

It's not our fault you guys picked stupid cars

Link to comment
Share on other sites

on a Corvette, and according to you SE/MA guys. There are more than just Corvettes that run in TT & PT.

 

the C5/C6 is pretty easy on tires, in general, but this would be a wear issue (ie, we probably get longer life from A6's vs a mac strut/solid axle car, etc) However I'd wager HC's are HC's for any car, an R6 isn't going to "last" any longer on a C5/C6 than anything else.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...