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2013 Rules Consideration--Bump of +13 Point Tire Category


Greg G.

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From what I understand, that tire was made for an entirely different series, but I could be wrong.
I was told that they were made for Pontiac Solsticeseseses for autocross, but it wasn't an accident that they ended up on the wide side.

 

Mark

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The message there is that you need to have a gutted car to be competitive. That, right there, is a barrier to entry for the aspiring HPDE-3 or -4 driver looking to move up that has the family DD car to play with.

Did you grow up playing "everyone gets a trophy" sports? So you're saying that you don't want to do what it takes to win so you want the rules changed to better suit you? TT is a great palce for the advanced HPDE guy who's tired of driving in circles to add in the new element of timing and a little competition. You can certainly go out and have fun in a street car racing against your own clock. However, if you want to win then be prepared to build the car.

 

Really? Ad hominem already? I'm probably older than you are, so no, I don't believe in "everybody wins" games. There's the winner, and then there's everybody else. The biggest problem that I see is series longevity, with respect to bringing in fresh blood. For the record, my car IS gutted, and I have no dog in any hunt with the weight-credit argument. When I started TT, with a relatively stock car and a full tank of gas (c. 14 gals) I scaled at 3719, with a MCW of 3450. For 2010, I scaled at 3463 on fumes. Last time I ran across the scales, after gutting the car, it was with a half-tank, and I scaled at 3256. After I cage it, I'm guessing I'll sit around 3375, with a few parts left to yank off gone. So, weight credit: Weight is by far the easiest, simplest thing to adjust on the car, points wise, and it just doesn't make any sense to restrict the weight to debit-only unless you dyno. Take a points-based car that's running heavy (maybe because the owner DOESN'T want to do what I did), and an overweight credit would allow a few extra points available for wider rubber to help offset the weight, which should contribute to PARITY. S/U/R is pure power to weight, A-F have power to weight caps, most of the race series that aren't SPEC are power to weight based. An overweight credit would allow some of the HPDE-3 or HPDE-4 cars to come and play with a chance of competing well without having to gut to get down to weight. Take a Spec Z06: The formula, if I remember correctly, is a bone stock car, add small A6, and go run. The guy that has the car at min weight will have an advantage over the guy that still has his interior panels, seam sealer, and carpet liner in the car, and thus comes in 75lbs overweight. IF you were to allow the overweight car an extra 10mm of tire (or even 20mm) to help balance the weight, that might provide for a bit closer racing, assuming equal driver talent. I don't see any issues with that, certainly not a case of "everybody wins." It's like taking two different approaches to a car build. Assuming that the "overweight" build was done with some sense of purpose, it would be easy enough to figure out that for a given set of mods, with a given set of tires, all you would have to do is run a half-tank and pull the passenger seat and you'd be "on the money" in terms of points.

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Weight is by far the easiest, simplest thing to adjust on the car, points wise, and it just doesn't make any sense to restrict the weight to debit-only unless you dyno. Take a points-based car that's running heavy (maybe because the owner DOESN'T want to do what I did), and an overweight credit would allow a few extra points available for wider rubber to help offset the weight, which should contribute to PARITY. S/U/R is pure power to weight, A-F have power to weight caps, most of the race series that aren't SPEC are power to weight based. An overweight credit would allow some of the HPDE-3 or HPDE-4 cars to come and play with a chance of competing well without having to gut to get down to weight. Take a Spec Z06: The formula, if I remember correctly, is a bone stock car, add small A6, and go run. The guy that has the car at min weight will have an advantage over the guy that still has his interior panels, seam sealer, and carpet liner in the car, and thus comes in 75lbs overweight. IF you were to allow the overweight car an extra 10mm of tire (or even 20mm) to help balance the weight, that might provide for a bit closer racing, assuming equal driver talent. I don't see any issues with that, certainly not a case of "everybody wins." It's like taking two different approaches to a car build. Assuming that the "overweight" build was done with some sense of purpose, it would be easy enough to figure out that for a given set of mods, with a given set of tires, all you would have to do is run a half-tank and pull the passenger seat and you'd be "on the money" in terms of points.

 

I agree with Dave. Perhaps anything starting at 30-40lbs over comp weight, the weight points are mirrored. Instead of adding a point every 15-20 lbs or whatever it is, you get one back.

 

Although, I only feel this rule should be in place if they continue to offer points credited for running smaller tires. Run them both or don't run either.

 

Perhaps limit both too as some of us suggested earlier.

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2. Brakes will make your car faster. I'm sorry Cobra4B - you know we're cool - but a set of $5,000 PFCs will make your car stop faster and I have data to prove it. It also does help with consumables, but make no doubt - a good kit will make you faster.

 

Faster around the entire track or just improve braking? if you up the rotor size, you need to drag all of those around. Data was gathered in a back to back test, same day, tires, etc? What exactly (quantitatively) did you find?

 

I am on in/around ABS the whole time (whenever I want to be), I am interested to see how bigger brakes could improve on that (in TT).

 

Ben - there was a slight increase in rotor size, but mainly a change in caliper manufacture. Biggest difference is ability to modulate and stay on the threshold without ABS. Decrease was obviously in all the large braking zones. It was not on the same day - sorry, but I don't have the resources to run, come in and swap out rotors, pads, calipers and go back out again. Tires were the same - Hoosier As.

 

Re Slicks - in the interest of full disclosure I was running R80 front and R100 rear (it's a Porsche, so it'd kill the 80s in the rear in about 2 laps). I also tried Pirellis and Dunlops - both used. Wasn't impressed with Pirellis, but real Dunlop motorsport slick was pretty amazing - with 8 heat cycles I was getting lap times 0.5-1 second off my new As. Then again, you'd expect a good performance from a $2400 set of slicks!!

 

Mark - you're absolutely right, all slicks are not created equal. Anybody willing to splurge on a set of Michelins or Dunlops for 2K+ a set should see some amazing performance. But they last less than A6s do and are typically done after 5 HCs and cord after 8-10. And R80 would be ok for TT, but I think they wouldn't last in a race. R75s are very soft!

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The great folks at Hoosier don't have their heads stuck in the sand. They are fully aware of the new 255 rule and it's ramifications - just ask them.

Regarding the 255/35-18, they were fully aware of what they manufactured as well. Just ask them.

 

Mark

From what I understand, that tire was made for an entirely different series, but I could be wrong.

 

You would be right. Size was lobbied by SCCA AutoX national level drivers.

 

Peter

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2. Brakes will make your car faster. I'm sorry Cobra4B - you know we're cool - but a set of $5,000 PFCs will make your car stop faster and I have data to prove it. It also does help with consumables, but make no doubt - a good kit will make you faster.

 

Faster around the entire track or just improve braking? if you up the rotor size, you need to drag all of those around. Data was gathered in a back to back test, same day, tires, etc? What exactly (quantitatively) did you find?

 

I am on in/around ABS the whole time (whenever I want to be), I am interested to see how bigger brakes could improve on that (in TT).

 

Ben - there was a slight increase in rotor size, but mainly a change in caliper manufacture. Biggest difference is ability to modulate and stay on the threshold without ABS. Decrease was obviously in all the large braking zones. It was not on the same day - sorry, but I don't have the resources to run, come in and swap out rotors, pads, calipers and go back out again. Tires were the same - Hoosier As.

 

Re Slicks - in the interest of full disclosure I was running R80 front and R100 rear (it's a Porsche, so it'd kill the 80s in the rear in about 2 laps). I also tried Pirellis and Dunlops - both used. Wasn't impressed with Pirellis, but real Dunlop motorsport slick was pretty amazing - with 8 heat cycles I was getting lap times 0.5-1 second off my new As. Then again, you'd expect a good performance from a $2400 set of slicks!!

 

Mark - you're absolutely right, all slicks are not created equal. Anybody willing to splurge on a set of Michelins or Dunlops for 2K+ a set should see some amazing performance. But they last less than A6s do and are typically done after 5 HCs and cord after 8-10. And R80 would be ok for TT, but I think they wouldn't last in a race. R75s are very soft!

 

From my data - I agree 100% that a REAL bbk will improve your lap times regardless of compound on the pad or tire, you'll be able to brake later, harder, and smoother with the good ones, all in all worth the 2 points in my honest opinion.

 

Slicks Vs A's wise i'd have to disagree on the A's lasting anything longer. A fresh set of A's on our cars last about 2 - 4 sessions or 1 weekend depending on heat and how hard your pushing. I've NEVER gotten 4-5 let alone 8-10 cycles before cording. That's with professional staff monitoring camber/pressure/temp spread back then. Slicks should technically last MUCH longer then A's, but not as long as R's. I don't think they're really worth the huge hit on HP, but since the rule was in place nothing has been printed that i've seen outside of Greg's region on data proving they do 2-4 seconds a lap faster. I'm going to test slicks again this season and see if it pans out or not.

 

On A/S/U cars and tire width, the Evo was semi screwed anyway from RACING in PTA, because the parts and modifications needed to last the whole race blew it out of PTA regardless of tire. Tis why all 5 or 6 of us racing run in ST instead and are forced to $ with the spec vette's in uber budgets. So at the end of the day this ruling doesn't bother me much due to points, but from the friends I know whom it does, A's should be a +15 or +16 tire. Especially if the point is to only run 2 laps or 12 in a Sprint race. This would open the market for people trying different tires other then the "NATIONAL" A's win" standard that's in place today, aka how much $ you got for stickers. Brings that 2-4 second a lap pace of the A's more into reach of the R's, much like you put .75 points for 2-4 seconds for slicks...

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From my data - I agree 100% that a REAL bbk will improve your lap times regardless of compound on the pad or tire, you'll be able to brake later, harder, and smoother with the good ones, all in all worth the 2 points in my honest opinion.

Agreed. I've driven two very similarly prepped FWD Hondas. One had the factory Type-R brakes (11-inch rotors) and the other had the Spoon Sports monoblock upgraded calipers but kept stock Type-R rotors. Both were using the Carbotech XP-10s and Toyos. The difference was night and day in my ability to modulate the brakes and comfort with braking extremely late.

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From what I understand, that tire was made for an entirely different series, but I could be wrong.
I was told that they were made for Pontiac Solsticeseseses for autocross, but it wasn't an accident that they ended up on the wide side.

 

Mark

 

This sad (internet) history of the 255/18 A6:

 

"LAKEVILLE, IN (November 10, 2008) -- In an effort to offer our autocross and club racing customers even more tire size options, Hoosier Racing Tire is proud to announce the arrival of a new tire size. This new size is available both in the R6 and A6 compound and will be available November 24. Pontiac Solstice and Mazda RX-8 owners will benefit from this new size. Contact your nearest Hoosier distributor or dealer for price and availability, or visit www.hoosiertire.com for more information.

 

Size P255/35ZR-18

O.D. 24.8

Circ. 77.8

Tread Width 10.3

Section Width 10.8

Recommended Rim 8.5-10"

Measured Rim 9.0

Weight 22.0

2009 Suggested Price $300"

 

"The Hoosier 255 was made from an existing tire by taking the carcass and widening it, so the stated aspect ratio is too high - it is really more like a 28 or 30, certainly not a 35. Hoosier indicates from their stated measures that the 255 is only .7 inches less in width, but of course the 285 is very rounded on the 8" rim while a 255 is less so. The 255 is lighter. Bottom line, the tire is a tiny bit shorter and effectively should be about the same width, and could be lighter. Theoretically then there is a possible benefit. In the offseason there was a lot of speculation about this, particularly on the RX-8 and SCCA forums, but after the early cupping problems on the outer edge (that look like they were caused by underinflation issues according to the RX-8 guys and Hoosier), people seem to have abandoned the testing or comitted to other tire sizes for this season."

 

"I was one of the RX-8 drivers...

255's corded in 20 autocross runs. Front camber -1.8, rear -2.0.

 

My advice............do not buy them!

 

There is definitely something wrong."

 

More feedback (RX8s): http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?t=170289&page=3

 

All this and the 255 ruling, tough life for the 255/35.

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"I was one of the RX-8 drivers...

255's corded in 20 autocross runs. Front camber -1.8, rear -2.0.

 

nowhere near enough, especially if the car has any amount of body roll

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RX8 does have a pretty good chassis & camber curves, plus to stay stock legal you can't use aftermarket alignment bolts or anything to help - that's a pretty damn good amt of camber for a BS legal car. That's also about 1/5th the amount of runs they're getting with the 285s for the same alignment....

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RX8 does have a pretty good chassis & camber curves, plus to stay stock legal you can't use aftermarket alignment bolts or anything to help - that's a pretty damn good amt of camber for a BS legal car. That's also about 1/5th the amount of runs they're getting with the 285s for the same alignment....

 

understood on class restraints, but in general, 1.8 is not enough camber for hoosiers, especially where (likely) they are running them at pretty low pressures

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Right, that was the downfall - crazy wear on cars that were limited to using stock sways or camber limited (i.e. the target audience).

 

I can attest to this (corded within less than 2 90% effort laps on the high curbs of the NJMP-Tbolt chicane).

 

With this in mind, knowing that they are terrible tires, it is self-evident that they should be reclassified as +10 tires.

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I'm sure the Miata guys will disagree...

 

What about doing away with "credit" for tires smaller than base class size.

Ban.

 

(205s with TTE base class guy right here)

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if no credits for smaller, no points for bigger and lets all go stuff the biggest tires we can under our cars

 

what's good for the goose (points for larger) is good for the gander (credit for smaller)

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if no credits for smaller, no points for bigger and lets all go stuff the biggest tires we can under our cars

 

what's good for the goose (points for larger) is good for the gander (credit for smaller)

 

Same as the rules for weight.

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if no credits for smaller, no points for bigger and lets all go stuff the biggest tires we can under our cars

 

what's good for the goose (points for larger) is good for the gander (credit for smaller)

 

Same as the rules for weight.

you mean the rules where you can effectively get points back for weight with a hp/weight reclass at a weight higher than your listing with a corresponding lower base class?

 

IE listing of 2657lbs TTF* and get a reclass of say 2700lbs TTF and have 7 more points for mods?

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if no credits for smaller, no points for bigger and lets all go stuff the biggest tires we can under our cars

 

what's good for the goose (points for larger) is good for the gander (credit for smaller)

 

Same as the rules for weight.

you mean the rules where you can effectively get points back for weight with a hp/weight reclass at a weight higher than your listing with a corresponding lower base class?

 

IE listing of 2657lbs TTF* and get a reclass of say 2700lbs TTF and have 7 more points for mods?

 

No Ken you know exactly the rules I am talking about.

You are only punished for light. No credit for heavy.

 

Reclass is not available to all.

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so would you agree than maybe on a case-by-case basis credit for narrow tires could be allowed similar to the way the weight/reclass deal is done? That I could be talked into possibly...

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TIRES ARE A MOD-so why get credits....................... are there many other mods where you get credits.

WEIGHT- you have to stay in your ratios.......

JMC

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Same points used for weight reduction should be used for weight addition. Minus points for weight removal and plus points for weight addition. Addition being anything over your listed comp weight.

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