gpeluso Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 The tire issue is the biggest issue....I like what one person stated....use the proper size tore for your car. I believe compounds should be assessed points. I have said it many times...weight is an issue when it comes to tires .... Our current rules reward miatas and hondas due to their lower weight.... Why would a miata guy put 245's on his 1990??? He wouldn't because he would be slower... Base class sizes don't work.... The problem with just horsepower to weight doesn't take aero advantages from one car to another.... The more variety we have is better. If one formula is better than another you start creating a spec class in a sense. I love seeing creative people with crazy combos. Sometime I believe base class weights need to be reviewed.... Greg is doing his best and it is only right that a car class and weight may need to be adjusted. Why is it ok for some cars to get the perfect size to race due to their classification but others need to spend points and some even gets credit.....crazy..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H4CRXSi Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 Why is it ok for some cars to get the perfect size to race due to their classification but others need to spend points and some even gets credit.....crazy..... Goes back to picking the proper car for the class, IMHO. This holds true in almost any racing series. Regards, Sam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gpeluso Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 Guess I'll buy a Honda then..... Haha I will quit thinking outside of the box... Crawling under my rock again. See you guys at the track. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
speedengineer Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 The tire issue is the biggest issue....I like what one person stated....use the proper size tore for your car. I have said it many times...weight is an issue when it comes to tires .... Our current rules reward miatas and hondas due to their lower weight.... Why would a miata guy put 245's on his 1990??? He wouldn't because he would be slower... Base class sizes don't work.... I'm pretty sure it's all taken into account in the base classing. If a car is clearly too fast for its group it gets bumped... Is it fair that putting a camshaft into a miata gives (making up numbers here) 15hp but a camshaft into a V8 makes 50hp? Cams cost the same number of TT points in each case. I guess base classing doesn't work. Shlt, now we're going to have to revise the whole system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
speedengineer Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 As mentioned, wider tires make you faster and thus they cost points. Skinny tires make you slower, thus you should get points back. Makes sense, right? Similarly, I would support points back for those running over base class weight. Same deal - less weight makes you faster, you take points. Makes sense to me that you get some points back for weighing extra. Might I suggest though that it wouldn't be at the same points/pound. Perhaps 1 point/30lbs instead of 15? I know TT drivers that compete in nearly stock vehicles that they daily drive. Not everyone wants to do the weight reduction necessary to get to min weight. Getting a few points back makes it possible for non-diehards to compete in TT and have a chance of doing well. After all, that was the original idea behind time trials - bring your street car and compete. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cucamelsmd15 Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 As mentioned, wider tires make you faster and thus they cost points. Skinny tires make you slower, thus you should get points back. Makes sense, right? Jesus Christ, that's painting with a broad brush if Ive ever seen it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fixxxercask Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 About cams... They should do those like they do the intake mods. 1 point for 4 cylinders, 2 points for 6 cylinders and 3 points for 8 cylinders. Except for cams maybe do 2, 4 and 6 or something. A 8 cylinder car will gain far more power from cams than a 4 cylinder. Seems slightly unfair that they all have to take 6 points. If I ever put cams in my car, I may as well get a dyno re-class along with adding a bunch more engine mods. I would rather take 6 points in tires than cams. Just my 2 cents Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varkwso Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 About cams... They should do those like they do the intake mods. 1 point for 4 cylinders, 2 points for 6 cylinders and 3 points for 8 cylinders. Except for cams maybe do 2, 4 and 6 or something. A 8 cylinder car will gain far more power from cams than a 4 cylinder. Seems slightly unfair that they all have to take 6 points. If I ever put cams in my car, I may as well get a dyno re-class along with adding a bunch more engine mods. I would rather take 6 points in tires than cams. Just my 2 cents Class hp limits kick in. Reclass works better for mosses engines. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbrew8991 Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 About cams... They should do those like they do the intake mods. 1 point for 4 cylinders, 2 points for 6 cylinders and 3 points for 8 cylinders. Except for cams maybe do 2, 4 and 6 or something. A 8 cylinder car will gain far more power from cams than a 4 cylinder. Seems slightly unfair that they all have to take 6 points. If I ever put cams in my car, I may as well get a dyno re-class along with adding a bunch more engine mods. I would rather take 6 points in tires than cams. Just my 2 cents design parameters of the stock engine matter far more than mere cyl count. Is the stock engine under-cammed? Does the stock engine have a well designed head & valve structure? How is the rest of the supporting cast? Can a simple cam swap produce large power gains without touching other parts? etc etc etc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varkwso Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 About cams... They should do those like they do the intake mods. 1 point for 4 cylinders, 2 points for 6 cylinders and 3 points for 8 cylinders. Except for cams maybe do 2, 4 and 6 or something. A 8 cylinder car will gain far more power from cams than a 4 cylinder. Seems slightly unfair that they all have to take 6 points. If I ever put cams in my car, I may as well get a dyno re-class along with adding a bunch more engine mods. I would rather take 6 points in tires than cams. Just my 2 cents design parameters of the stock engine matter far more than mere cyl count. Is the stock engine under-cammed? Does the stock engine have a well designed head & valve structure? How is the rest of the supporting cast? Can a simple cam swap produce large power gains without touching other parts? etc etc etc Thank you Ken. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fixxxercask Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 About cams... They should do those like they do the intake mods. 1 point for 4 cylinders, 2 points for 6 cylinders and 3 points for 8 cylinders. Except for cams maybe do 2, 4 and 6 or something. A 8 cylinder car will gain far more power from cams than a 4 cylinder. Seems slightly unfair that they all have to take 6 points. If I ever put cams in my car, I may as well get a dyno re-class along with adding a bunch more engine mods. I would rather take 6 points in tires than cams. Just my 2 cents design parameters of the stock engine matter far more than mere cyl count. Is the stock engine under-cammed? Does the stock engine have a well designed head & valve structure? How is the rest of the supporting cast? Can a simple cam swap produce large power gains without touching other parts? etc etc etc The heads are well designed from the factory. I stand to see a 15hp gain from a good race cam. Kind of like S2000's...they are designed so well from the factory. There is much to gain by changing cams or things like that unless you go all out and re-build the entire engine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boomn29 Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 Same points used for weight reduction should be used for weight addition. Minus points for weight removal and plus points for weight addition. Addition being anything over your listed comp weight. Not a fan of this. If you got point credits for running a higher weight, people would just add weight to get all those fancy mods they didn't have room for. Where would it end? I think you'd see a lot of cars slide down 1 class (but certainly not run a +16 A6...lol). If you can't make your min comp weight - ask for a reclass based on the weight you CAN make. That's been the process to this point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fixxxercask Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 Perhaps not the same points mirrored for adding weight then. Like Jason had said; what about starting it 30lbs above and going in larger increments. Maybe like 3 points for every 100lbs or so. That would prevent it from getting to out of control which you're right, it would. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbrew8991 Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 there's also that ballast limit you can run into as well to act as a natural cap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clydesdale Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 Same points used for weight reduction should be used for weight addition. Minus points for weight removal and plus points for weight addition. Addition being anything over your listed comp weight. Not a fan of this. If you got point credits for running a higher weight, people would just add weight to get all those fancy mods they didn't have room for. Where would it end? I think you'd see a lot of cars slide down 1 class (but certainly not run a +16 A6...lol). If you can't make your min comp weight - ask for a reclass based on the weight you CAN make. That's been the process to this point. If the weight points (either adding or removing) aren't equivalent to the reclassing options then one or the other system is broken. For example if you could save 10 points by cutting 150 lbs but only 7 points by reclassing at a 150 lbs lower comp weight that isn't really a fair set of rules is it? It would certainly make me question the validity of one or the other. I don't have an issue with being able to reclass at a higher weight, but my own experience at this is that Greg won't let you drop a class anyway-- though it may be only specific to my circumstance. Ultimately this only hurts bone stock cars that have large differences between curb weight and comp weight. Know anybody who barely makes weight with a stock car and full tank of gas? As for tires, my opinion is that tire compound/width should be reviewed no differently then base classing vehicle/weight. If you can assign a class to every make and model of vehicle why could you not do the same and assign points for every compound and size? In the end there are probably fewer tire selections (at least of the popular track oriented kind) than there are vehicles listed in the TT rules. I'm certain that the results would be no more or less controversial than the sliding width scale. You could also do away with the base class tire size though if you wanted to have a tiered system you could do it with class (or vehicle) tire point credits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ILIKETODRIVE Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 If the weight points (either adding or removing) aren't equivalent to the reclassing options then one or the other system is broken. For example if you could save 10 points by cutting 150 lbs but only 7 points by reclassing at a 150 lbs lower comp weight that isn't really a fair set of rules is it? It would certainly make me question the validity of one or the other. I don't have an issue with being able to reclass at a higher weight, but my own experience at this is that Greg won't let you drop a class anyway-- though it may be only specific to my circumstance. Ultimately this only hurts bone stock cars that have large differences between curb weight and comp weight. Know anybody who barely makes weight with a stock car and full tank of gas? Lest ye forget: when you reclass, power mods (intake/header/exhaust/etc) are no longer a factor for your point total. Therefore, if you had +4 worth of minor power adders, you're ahead 1 point. My car is a perfect example for this. My base class was F* and my base weight was 2529. I was taking points for intake, header, cat delete, exhaust as well as gears/LSD/shocks/springs/sway bars/tires and weight reduction. I was maxed out in TTE (+7 for * and +32 for points) with 205 RA-1s when they were only +5! I then reclassed to a TTE base class. PTW 17:1, minimum comp weight 2350lbs. Base tire size went from 215 to 235 (thereby giving me even more points back for my tires) AND I no longer took my power mods as points. Now I can run 225 RA-1s OR 205 A6s and nothing else changed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clydesdale Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 Lest ye forget: when you reclass, power mods (intake/header/exhaust/etc) are no longer a factor for your point total. Therefore, if you had +4 worth of minor power adders, you're ahead 1 point. My car is a perfect example for this. My base class was F* and my base weight was 2529. I was taking points for intake, header, cat delete, exhaust as well as gears/LSD/shocks/springs/sway bars/tires and weight reduction. I was maxed out in TTE (+7 for * and +32 for points) with 205 RA-1s when they were only +5! I then reclassed to a TTE base class. PTW 17:1, minimum comp weight 2350lbs. Base tire size went from 215 to 235 (thereby giving me even more points back for my tires) AND I no longer took my power mods as points. Now I can run 225 RA-1s OR 205 A6s and nothing else changed. You didn't list your reclassed HP. I count +6 for your engine mods which would make you TTF+13 so the remaining 7 points compared to both your actual HP and your reclassed HP would be interesting to see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fixxxercask Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 Randy, I do know of one 350Z that got dyno re-classed at TTD* which is lower than it's normal base class of TTC. I think his weight was around 3300lbs and hp max was 235hp (which is pretty much stock) He ran 225's and got points back to run coilovers and R6's. He shattered TTD records down south. I'm not 100% on those numbers, but I am 100% that a 350Z got classed lower original and managed to stay in that class and destroy everyone. This is very rare in the re-class world! Edit....Here are the specs.. Dyno Reclass TTD* @ 3195lbs/235hp + 7 for the (*) +10 R6 225/45/17 - 4 225mm Tire + 2 Springs + 3 Shocks (DA Koni) + 1 Upgrade Diff Total: +19 TTD Adjusted Wt/Hp Calc: 3195lbs/235hp = 13.59 + .8 (for tire < 255mm) - .05 for weight = 14.34....pretty close to 14.25 min. That is an awesome setup. Maybe I should do that. My reclass was TTC 3190lbs/265hp. So according to that, 30hp is 13pts....WOW!!! Not too mention mine is a base model Z and does not come with an LSD, so I would have to take 3 points for that and not just 1 like he did. That is probably the best re-class I've ever seen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varkwso Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 No TTD records held in SE by a 350z. Must be Florida. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlkGt3 Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 No TTD records held in SE by a 350z. Must be Florida. Yep Florida and he shattered the TTD Homestead record which was held by a very good driver in a well set up Miata turbo. Peter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ILIKETODRIVE Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 (edited) I then reclassed to a TTE base class. PTW 17:1, minimum comp weight 2350lbs. You didn't list your reclassed HP. I count +6 for your engine mods which would make you TTF+13 so the remaining 7 points compared to both your actual HP and your reclassed HP would be interesting to see. 138 maximum whp. I made between 135.5 and 137 on 6 pulls on two dynos on the same day. I couldn't remember how many points I was taking for weight but math will solve that: +7 for *, +6 for power mods, +13 for other mods, +4 for tires...so +9 for weight loss. Now with RA-1s being +7 I couldn't even pull that off without adding a bunch of weight lol. Heck I have to ballast about 20lbs just to be at 2350lbs with about 2 gallons of gas in the car. (BTW: car had most of the interior and 4-point roll bar before which made it easy to make 2400+ lbs) Edited February 2, 2012 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fixxxercask Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 I wonder how the other TTD competitors in the Florida region feel about that re-class. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
obzezzed350 Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 No TTD records held in SE by a 350z. Must be Florida. Yep Florida and he shattered the TTD Homestead record which was held by a very good driver in a well set up Miata turbo. Peter Records are meant to be broken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clydesdale Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 Randy, I do know of one 350Z that got dyno re-classed at TTD* which is lower than it's normal base class of TTC. I think his weight was around 3300lbs and hp max was 235hp (which is pretty much stock) He ran 225's and got points back to run coilovers and R6's. He shattered TTD records down south. ... Dyno Reclass TTD* @ 3195lbs/235hp How did you go from 3300 to 3195? His TTD* reclass would need to have been a higher weight not lower. That is an awesome setup. Maybe I should do that. My reclass was TTC 3190lbs/265hp. So according to that, 30hp is 13pts....WOW!!! Not too mention mine is a base model Z and does not come with an LSD, so I would have to take 3 points for that and not just 1 like he did. That is probably the best re-class I've ever seen. I think he probably needed to take 3 points unless he had the Roadster, Track, or Nismo models (which is probably not the case since none of those are base TTC). None of the '04-'06 350Z base models came with LSD therefore any model in that category with LSD would need to take 3 points. It's not related to how your model came from the factory but from how your model is different than the base model. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
National Staff Greg G. Posted February 2, 2012 Author National Staff Share Posted February 2, 2012 You guys might want to check the base model listing for the 350Z's. It says (Enth. ok). This stands for the Enthusiast model, which comes with an LSD. Update/backdate allows a base trim 350Z to use that LSD because they are grouped together in the same model group in the Rules. Then, that LSD can be switched out for any LSD for +1 point. The 350Z has other warts, like requiring points for control arms and/or metallic bushing replacement in order to get decent camber changes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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