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Varkwso

Brake calipers

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Varkwso

Right now base OEM is included in your initial classification. An upgrade from minor to major is +2. Probably the bargain on the point sheet.

 

Having started in MGAs and 68 Z/28 I am used to brakes that were there for emergencies only.

 

Do people really believe a better caliper does not.make for a faster lap time?

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D_Eclipse9916
Right now base OEM is included in your initial classification. An upgrade from minor to major is +2. Probably the bargain on the point sheet.

 

Having started in MGAs and 68 Z/28 I am used to brakes that were there for emergencies only.

 

Do people really believe a better caliper does not.make for a faster lap time?

 

I think it really depends on the car. I personally beleive the +2 for calipers on my 99 m3 is not worth the effort or money or points.

 

In fact, even if it was free points im not sure I would do it anyway. That said, calipers do let you get much bigger pad thicknesses which are really nice.

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Fixxxercask

It depends. I know if I upgrade to a huge BBK, I will get better braking, but not enough to gain a ton of time. I will be adding a ton of weight due to huge rotors and bigger calipers. If I could just upgrade to 4 piston caliper in the front and 2 piston in the rear and retain the stock size rotors, I could see that helping more than anything.

 

The bigger rotors are is where a lot of the weight is. When I switched to Brembos from my tiny stock brakes, I am willing to bet I put on an additional 30-40lbs to my car. They are thicker and taller. Really heavy!

 

Maybe upgrading from a drum brakes to disc brakes would be a lot more noticeable.

 

I don't know. Just my thoughts...This is just based on my experience.

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Cobra4B

For our Corvettes it doesn't imporve lap times. It simply reduces consumables costs. Pads are thicker, cheaper and less taper means you ran run them all the way down. I get more piston knockback with the Wilwoods to the point they feel worse in some areas vs. the stock calipers, but they've alredy paid for themselves in reduced pad costs. If I was only doing TT I wouldn't bother with the calipers. That said, I have no desire to race w/o the Wilwoods... would go through pads like crazy.

 

Pads, rotors, lines, fluid and cooling are all free mods... I'd say that's the important stuff for stopping more quickly... on and of course tires (but not free).

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rsrdan

This is a great post,as I too was pondering going to BBK,but after reading some great feedback,I too have decided to save the dough...and points

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Fixxxercask

Here is my thought on brakes...

 

If I can go out with my stock single piston fronts and single piston rears down the back straight at Mid Ohio and lock up the ABS on A6's, I can do the same with a BBK. If I can lock up the ABS that means I have exceeded the grip of the tire. Right?

 

The only difference I feel with upgrading to the track model 350Z Brembos is that it takes a less pedal pressure to get there. With the Brembos, since they are 4 piston front and 2 piston rear, I get more initial bite and less pressure needed to threshold brake. That instills better brake "feel" for the driver. I get far less pad knock back with the Brembos too, so I don't get a long pedal after some of the tight corners going into the next brake zone. Watch some the Continental Tire series guys. A lot of times you will see their brake lights flicker before a big brake zone coming down a straight away. They are re-seating the pads again so they don't get long pedal because they are on OEM calipers. This is what some of us have to do using stock brakes sometimes. However, this does not take away the braking ability of the OEM single piston calipers.

 

My single piston calipers destroy pads faster because they taper really easily. This is one of the biggest reasons I upgraded. Secondly, was to gain better pedal feel.

 

That being said. Think of some of the other free mods. Lightweight clutch. Some of the Vette guys are using those 5 inch quarter master clutches to save a ton of weight and more importantly, get all that rotational mass off the engine. Something like 30-40lbs. That's huge.

 

Changing final drive gears. I can mathematically gain 15% more power switching to a 4.08 gear in my Z over my 3.5. I would accelerate a hell of a lot faster for free points. I may shift more, but the acceleration I will gain will far outweigh that. Some tracks will be better or worse than others. Again 0 points.

 

Changing out all bushings on your car to poly is free. That will stiffen up the car quite a bit and help in numerous ways over soft OEM rubber bushings. Again 0 points.

 

So you think brakes should still be +2 if those other things I mentioned are free? I think the above three things will far more improve your lap times than some brakes. I would be more than happy to let my competitors put the most expensive biggest baddest brakes they can on their cars. If they beat me, the last excuse I am going to use is "it's because they have bigger brakes". It's because they're are the better driver.

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Varkwso

Look at GT3 and Corvettes we left foot brake before every brake zone to seat the pads. A brake caliper that does not require that will be faster, marginally.

 

Free mods are free mods. Brake upgrades often include new wheel sizing so that is an expense. Not counting bigger wheels Stoptechs or hardbar brakes are about $3000.

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sperkins

I agree with Brian when it comes to budget brake kits which is what we both have. I haven't seen any lap time improvements at any track. That being said, a real BBK would do wonders. Can you imagine what ZR1 carbon brakes would do on our cars?

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drivinhardz06
Can you imagine what ZR1 carbon brakes would do on our cars?

 

force you to spend $8k on the brakes, then spend another $8k on a whole bunch of 19" wheels.

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Varkwso
I agree with Brian when it comes to budget brake kits which is what we both have. I haven't seen any lap time improvements at any track. That being said, a real BBK would do wonders. Can you imagine what ZR1 carbon brakes would do on our cars?

 

For about $8000 we can get them. I would love to try them.

 

Mark beat me to it...

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Trevor57

Bigger brakes will not make the lap times lower for most modern cars. If you can do a full lap while braking at the limits of the tire's grip your brakes are doing all they can to slow the car.

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jimbow

I'm not expecting greatly reduced lap times with a BBK on my 92 Corvette.

However I am looking forward to the front pads lasting longer and not having to pray the rebuilt calipers from Autozone are the correct size and have no taper.

 

I'm ok with it being 2 pts, or free.

I already have 18" rims.

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kbrew8991

needs to be a points mod - too many freebies already

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Cobra4B
Not counting bigger wheels Stoptechs or hardbar brakes are about $3000.

Maybe for all four... Gary's T1 kit is about 1/2 that for the fronts.

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UKRBMW

I think it's crazy how definitively people say their lap times won't improve with a better brake kit. I know that E36 brakes are good, so are some of other cars, but there are aftermarket true racing kits that will do wonders to your car. Even on something like my old GT3 that had amazing brakes - moving to a true racing Brembo setup made it even better. I think most try a 2K Wilwood setup and base their judgement on that, which isn't accurate. Now, hopefully people won't be dropping 5-7K on brakes for TT!

 

As far as lock up - a bad pad with too much initial bite can cause that. Does that mean you're stopping as quickly as you can? I don't think so. If you have the right brake setup and pad compound you can stop faster since it works together much better.

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drivinhardz06
Not counting bigger wheels Stoptechs or hardbar brakes are about $3000.

Maybe for all four... Gary's T1 kit is about 1/2 that for the fronts.

 

It's $2600 no pads or lines

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Cobra4B

10-4... that's with rotors then. There are cheaper 2-piece rotors options like the DBAs I run.

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Varkwso
I think it's crazy how definitively people say their lap times won't improve with a better brake kit. I know that E36 brakes are good, so are some of other cars, but there are aftermarket true racing kits that will do wonders to your car. Even on something like my old GT3 that had amazing brakes - moving to a true racing Brembo setup made it even better. I think most try a 2K Wilwood setup and base their judgement on that, which isn't accurate. Now, hopefully people won't be dropping 5-7K on brakes for TT!

 

As far as lock up - a bad pad with too much initial bite can cause that. Does that mean you're stopping as quickly as you can? I don't think so. If you have the right brake setup and pad compound you can stop faster since it works together much better.

 

I tend to agree with you. Probably makes you nervous. A lot about a fast lap is confidence. A dailed in good quality brake system is faster, mechanically. It is even better psychologically.

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Trevor57

So what about people that are confident in stock brakes? I have hundreds of laps of traqmate data on stock brakes. I would go through a set of front pads in a weekend or less. So I upgraded to larger calipers, rotors and bias adjuster. They felt much better, and pads last over multiple events. Overlaying data showed no measurable change in braking time. Many cars will benefit more from the ability to adjust brake bias than bigger brakes. Street cars tend to have more front bias than is optimum for racing. A big reason is that street cars need to stop in the rain. lots of front bias is very confidence inspiring, (Think big front brakes and stock rears, with no bias adjustment.) because the car will wag-ass less, but that can make stopping distances longer.

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Varkwso
So what about people that are confident in stock brakes? I have hundreds of laps of traqmate data on stock brakes. I would go through a set of front pads in a weekend or less. So I upgraded to larger calipers, rotors and bias adjuster. They felt much better, and pads last over multiple events. Overlaying data showed no measurable change in braking time. Many cars will benefit more from the ability to adjust brake bias than bigger brakes. Street cars tend to have more front bias than is optimum for racing. A big reason is that street cars need to stop in the rain. lots of front bias is very confidence inspiring, (Think big front brakes and stock rears, with no bias adjustment.) because the car will wag-ass less, but that can make stopping distances longer.

 

My 88 CMC Mustang has the legal, by old rule upgrades, to its brakes. Other then locking the right front pretty often they do fine. Since I did not use brakes at T5 at Road Atlanta brakes were not its problem.

 

Under current CMC rules I see a lot of more brake upgrades. The tire also decides how good your brake performs. Running R888 are a lot different then the evil A6. On cars like the Miata and our 83 Supra brakes last a season (or two) and are not the limiting factor on a lap.

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TurboShortBus

For TT use, where you just bang out 1 or 2 fast laps on A6s and then park the car, stock calipers with race pads are probably fine. Hell, a rented Chevy Malibu I ran at Homestead a few weeks ago would go nearly 3 laps before the brakes quit. But, as mentioned before, it's the driver confidence that helps a lot. I just like knowing that I have a decent set of Brembos in place as I'm diving down the hill into 10a at Road Atlanta.

 

Mark

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Cobra4B
But, as mentioned before, it's the driver confidence that helps a lot....

If we're going to start factoring "driver confidence" indo mod points then we'll need to start taking points for a good seat, harnesses, HANS, roll cages, comfortable driving attire, etc. Maybe points for eating a bowl of Wheaties and getting a good night's sleep too?

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kbrew8991
But, as mentioned before, it's the driver confidence that helps a lot....

If we're going to start factoring "driver confidence" indo mod points then we'll need to start taking points for a good seat, harnesses, HANS, roll cages, comfortable driving attire, etc. Maybe points for eating a bowl of Wheaties and getting a good night's sleep too?

how much lighter do I get to run if I've got a massive hangover?

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D_Eclipse9916
But, as mentioned before, it's the driver confidence that helps a lot....

If we're going to start factoring "driver confidence" indo mod points then we'll need to start taking points for a good seat, harnesses, HANS, roll cages, comfortable driving attire, etc. Maybe points for eating a bowl of Wheaties and getting a good night's sleep too?

 

What if I stayed at a Holiday Inn?

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Cobra4B
But, as mentioned before, it's the driver confidence that helps a lot....

If we're going to start factoring "driver confidence" indo mod points then we'll need to start taking points for a good seat, harnesses, HANS, roll cages, comfortable driving attire, etc. Maybe points for eating a bowl of Wheaties and getting a good night's sleep too?

how much lighter do I get to run if I've got a massive hangover?

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