UKRBMW Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 I'm trying to understand the logic behind factory Mustang race cars being treated as regular cars. Is there a specific reason behind this? I'm referring specifically to FR500C, FR500S, 302S, 302R, etc, not clones like DeSalvo's car. When I read the through the rules all the other Factory Built cars seem to get a penalty (except early Ferrari Challenge cars) - Porsche Cup cars, Viper Competition Coupes, newer Ferrari Challenge cars. Mustangs aren't even on that list. And they are clearly competitive since one won ST2 champtionship last year. I remember David Pintaric asking about the logic behind Viper -0.2 factor and I believe the reason was due to aero - why isn't 302S/R getting something? It seems a little unfair to completely ignore these cars. Greg's logic is always - if it doesn't start out as a street car than it needs to be adjusted. None of these cars start out as a street car, but yet seem to be treated that way. I had to try and build a Porsche Cup Car clone to stay in TTS/ST instead of buying a ready car because of -0.4 factor, but in retrospect I could've just picked up a 302S and ran it with no issues. Would like to hear from those who are involved in rule making on the logic behind this. Thank you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robbodleimages Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 the reason is that there is no difference between mr desalvo's clone and the real thing except the seriel/vin#. they are all built from the same parts. example. a grand am team buys an Boss 302r from the factory. they wreck it. they get a body in white or a street car and build a replacement car. same car. same specs. same performance. my "fr500c" is also a clone. a team built replacemant for a wrecked original 500C. my car was built with an upgraded cage, but does not have the seams welded. was not the car that dean won the ST2 national championship in brett mars car? that was a dean martin built car, not a factory ford built car. like i said, no difference. edit: if the rule actually treats a factory built car differently than a race shop built car, thats just stupid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UKRBMW Posted January 29, 2012 Author Share Posted January 29, 2012 Rob - clones are treated differently. Rules specifically read any car approved for street use by DOT (or something like that). These were factory built race cars, never licensed for the street, yet I see them running in ST. I'm not trying to start a fire here, just curious what the thought process is since they are not listed under "approved ST cars" with 0 modification, they are simply not mentioned at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robbodleimages Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 its ok. its no skin off my nose. my car was built from a street car. the vin tag is long gone and i am not sure how i would prove that, but its pretty obvious that its not a factory ford piece. i'll say this. if you want to penalize my race car, do it right now. i am planning on ST2 this season and i dont want to waste my time. reading this rule literally would disqualify or penalize any car built from a body in white. treating a clone differently doesnt make any sense. i'd like to hear the logic in that as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron B Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 Dean's car was not a factory built car, it was a clone like Desalvo's called the RR302S...and in my opinion is better than the "factory built" racecar for a few subtle reasons. Other than Dean who else is/was running in ST? did Rich G Run ST at Nats? his is a "factory car" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
svttim Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 This is the reason I am not running AI this year, I sure hope it doesnt go this way in ST. My car was a body in white, although not a factory racer. The factory cars are not really superior in any way, some in fact may be a bit harder to make competitive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robbodleimages Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 i am not going to name names/cars, but there are other cars running ST(non mustangs) for some time now that have never been street cars. For a class as heavily modified as ST1 to have all cars have started as vin'd street cars is asking a lot. they call this sort of thing opening a can of worms. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbrew8991 Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 isn't aero supposed to be open in ST anyway? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UKRBMW Posted January 30, 2012 Author Share Posted January 30, 2012 Ken - aero is open in ST. I didn't realize there were so many clones around the Mustang world. Nonetheless, given their frequent participation in ST races I would like some clarity, even if they are listed with Mod factor of 0. AI is different since its a series for Mustangs. For example a Porsche Cup car runs in GTS with no penalty, but takes 0.4 in ST. I don't know if any of the Mustangs would be similar, but again it'd be nice to know for certain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robbodleimages Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 most of the FR500C/S's that you see in NASA are second hand Grand Am and Mustang Challenge cars. Many of those cars have been wrecked and replaced with a fresh tub. effectively they are no longer the original factory built car. Grand Am allows team built cars built to the specs. Dean Martin builds his own cars as do other Grand Am teams. The factory cars are overpriced by as much as 2 to 1. Personally, I'd rather have a car that Dean built than one the factory built. Now, if you buy a Boss 302S you get both in the same car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racer91m Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 Oh man, you guys are gonna get me in trouble comparing our cars to factory cars.... I honestly didn't realize that ST made a distinction between VIN and non-VIN cars. I figure at ST level, it doesn't really matter. These are real racecars so how they started life didn't matter. I didn't realize that some other factory-built cars got point penalties. Some info just for the sake of info.... They engine in the Boss 302 R and Boss 302S is a bone stock Boss engine with the exception of a more robust wiring hraness and a better oil pan for roadracing. We even run the factory headers... The transmission in the Boss 302S is just a Shelby GT500 piece. Suspension points are all OEM factory location. I don't see anything that really puts these cars in a "special consideration" position that would warrant a penalty on it. Remeber, the Mustang still has a solid axle rear and not IRS. That alone should get it a break instead of a penalty. ST guys should expect to see a lot more of the new Mustangs this year given the rules change that penalizes these cars in American Iron. I am planning to run ST all year. I may even show up in ST1 with a modified Boss with some extra HP to go after the big bore cars... It was Brett Mars's Mustang GT that I drove at Championships. It was a stock GT that we upgraded to Boss r/S-like spec for racing. It was little under powered this year so thankfully it rained... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clubracer6 Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 ST guys should expect to see a lot more of the new Mustangs this year given the rules change that penalizes these cars in American Iron. I am planning to run ST all year. I may even show up in ST1 with a modified Boss with some extra HP to go after the big bore cars... It was Brett Mars's Mustang GT that I drove at Championships. It was a stock GT that we upgraded to Boss r/S-like spec for racing. It was little under powered this year so thankfully it rained... From my vantage point it seemed you were undertired and not underpowered at all!! Still building a purpose built ST2 car for 2012 or is that the ST1 car you are talking about? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sundialracing Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 Count me in for ST2 this year, cause Toyo's suck ass.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cobra4B Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 I remember David Pintaric asking about the logic behind Viper -0.2 factor and I believe the reason was due to aero - why isn't 302S/R getting something? I don't have a dog in this fight, but the only Viper I see listed is the Comp Coupe which is nothing like the production Viper. It's more like the original GTS-R concept. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UKRBMW Posted January 31, 2012 Author Share Posted January 31, 2012 B - that is just one of the cars. Porsche cups are the same - all parts to make a clone are readily available. From what I've found the same is applicable to Ferrari. Challenge cars. Again, all I'm looking for is an official word from those who review this and make decisions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robbodleimages Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 if you can build the identical car on your own either in your own shop or by contracting with an established race shop, i dont understand why the already built piece would be penalized. it doesnt make any sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David M. Pintaric Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 I remember David Pintaric asking about the logic behind Viper -0.2 factor and I believe the reason was due to aero - why isn't 302S/R getting something? I don't have a dog in this fight, but the only Viper I see listed is the Comp Coupe which is nothing like the production Viper. It's more like the original GTS-R concept. Actually, underneath the Comp Coupe and a car like mine are very similar; same frame, same suspension parts, same diff, trans and engine. Just the body work is different. I am confident is saying that "underneath" my car is now as good as almost any Comp Coupe in the U.S., excepting for maybe 4-5 of the best pro-tweeked cars (the European-style GT2 cars are another story all together). The big difference for me is weight. A Comp Coupe can be 150 lbs lighter than a SRT10. That hasn't been an issue for me as all the classes I race in require a 3,300 lb mininum weight, which I can achieve with some balast. I'd just have to add more if I had a CC. I speak with the Viper engineers fairly frequently, and once I asked about the aero differences between my car (which has the ACR-X aero package) and a World Challenge-spec Comp Coupe. The benefits would be small is what I have been told. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cobra4B Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 10-4... thanks for the info. Seeing a few around the track and how the body work comes off etc. I assumed there was more to it than just the exterior. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L98Terror Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 Don't Porsche Cup cars have windows? Maybe that is where the factor comes in since we can't run windows in ST but they allow them in a factory race car????? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UKRBMW Posted February 1, 2012 Author Share Posted February 1, 2012 David - thanks for the info! Ken - windows are easily removed on Cup cars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbrew8991 Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 Ken - windows are easily removed on Cup cars. regardless of that they're one of the few cars allowed to race with windows up... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrgordonsenior Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 Don't Porsche Cup cars have windows? Maybe that is where the factor comes in since we can't run windows in ST but they allow them in a factory race car????? Hi Ken Smith..... Out West almost all the 6 & 7-cups have removed thier windows to get some fresh air in the cabin. They're required for select racing series like Grand Am and the IMSA/Patron series, but club racers mostly remove them as it get's hot in there.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrgordonsenior Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 if you can build the identical car on your own either in your own shop or by contracting with an established race shop, i dont understand why the already built piece would be penalized. it doesnt make any sense. I couldn't agree more.... Case-in-point is my 99' 996 cup clone with a 268 rwhp 3.4 motor. I'm down 100 whp to the 6 & 7-cups but 150 lbs lighter with stock gearing and I can run with many of them. The body/aero is identical, I could run a cup motor & trans without the penalty..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaymz Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 I race in a Corvette against the Mustangs and do not have a problem with the factory built Mustangs running without a point modifier. Some of the ST rules need tweaked, this is one of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clubracer6 Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 I race in a Corvette against the Mustangs and do not have a problem with the factory built Mustangs running without a point modifier. Some of the ST rules need tweaked, this is one of them. Agreed! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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