PoBoyR6 Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 Sorry if this question has been asked before, but would reinforcing the subframe on an E46 M3 be considered a point modification? See links below. http://www.turnermotorsport.com/p-91-e46-rear-chassissubframe-reinforcement-kit.aspx http://www.turnermotorsport.com/image/suspension/susp_e46_subframe_reinforcement.pdf As you can see, this is a known weak point on E46 (and E36) M3s and the kit is mainly for ensuring the fatigue life of the tub, not to gain a performance advantage. BMW also sells this as an OEM repair kit (for about 10x markup). Considering adding a roll bar/cage is a no points mod I'm hoping the powers that be will fully bless this as a no points mod for now and the foreseeable future since once it goes on the car, it ain't coming off. Thanks Allan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbrew8991 Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 looks like a no-points repair to me, esp since it mimics the way the mfg would repair the car. Is there any documentation you can get from BMW to show how they would repair a similar failure? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varkwso Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 Based on the latest on frame and tub modifications I would not be sure this is free mod. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbrew8991 Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 the corollary question would be if that is a points mod to repair it with one of those kits how SHOULD they repair the tears to avoid points? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurboShortBus Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 What if that kit is installed on a car that is not damaged? That could result in +3 points per F4. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ken o Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 This is recognized as an OEM repair by BMW as a result of a class action law suit, http://www.e46subframeclassactionsettlement.com/. BMW was reimbursing for this repair until September 2010 due to safety concerns with subframe failures. Why would this be a performance repair? It is only replacing metal damage due to an acknowledged defect. It does not add any performance based bracing. What performance gain does welding a crack(s) and preventing it from cracking again add? How would you make this repair without being assessed points? Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbrew8991 Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 sounds alot less extensive than this Lotis Elise and Exige:The Lotus Elise and Exige optional rear toe link brace, along with the spherical joint that replaces the ball joint and attaches to the inboard end of the toe link bar are no-points modifications. OEM geometry, suspension mounting points, the outboard end joint on the toe link, and the toe link bar itself must remain stock. Similar aftermarket braces that meet the above requirements will also be no-points modifications (even if they have spherical joints on the static ends of the brace itself). Aftermarket kits that include a replacement toe link bar will be assessed +1 point. Aftermarket kits that change the outboard toe link joint to a spherical/heim joint will be assessed an additional +3 pts. for "metalic replacement suspension bushings". Aftermarket kits that do not use the OEM mounting locations for the toe link ends will be assessed an additional +6 pts. for "relocation of rear suspension mounting points". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PoBoyR6 Posted February 2, 2012 Author Share Posted February 2, 2012 In my opinion I don't see how if it was a repair or a preventative reinforcement, how they would differ. I would hope that I wouldn't have to wait for my car to break on the track, an obvious safety concern, before I would be able to put the reinforcement kit on without a points penalty. I haven't taken my subframe off yet to inspect for cracks/damage but I want to put this kit on regardless. Looking for Greg to chime in here with an official ruling before I pull the trigger. Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurboShortBus Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 Looking for Greg to chime in here with an official ruling before I pull the trigger. The best way to accomplish this goal is to email your question to him directly. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varkwso Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 Looking for Greg to chime in here with an official ruling before I pull the trigger. The best way to accomplish this goal is to email your question to him directly. Mark Yes it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ken o Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 Is this the Lotus toe link brace that is legal? That replaces this one? This is the BMW kit. It creates no triangles for bracing. It is not designed as a performance part. It is designed to keep an acknowledged weak area for breaking. Damaged area Installed I sent Greg an email requesting a review. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbrew8991 Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 I guess if the concern is they don't want you to use this allowance to go crazy and actually brace things then specify the repair is allowed, but only with X square inches of flat plate of Y thickness and the 4 repaired mounting point plates cannot be interconnected in any way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PoBoyR6 Posted February 2, 2012 Author Share Posted February 2, 2012 I've emailed Greg as well. Quite frankly I would be surprised if I'm the first person to table this issue since it has been a known problem all the way back to E36s. I don't see why there couldn't be a specific exception for it in the rules though similar to the Lotus toe link brace. I want to stress though that it shouldn't be only allowed in a repair situation. Waiting for your car to break because of a known weak point, that has had a lawsuit around it, sounds counterproductive to me. Sorry but I've got to play the safety card here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ken o Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 (edited) What if a specific kit or specification were approved? Turner makes a popular kit for this type of repair. Interconnecting of points would not be allowed to prevent it from becoming a performance gain. Edited February 2, 2012 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbrew8991 Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 Specifying the dimensions could let the Turner kit in, BMW kit it, and also let someone do something home-brewed if they wish as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlfpkrcn1 Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 I talked to someone familiar with this kit and cars. The Turner kit and BMW are completely different. BMW guts the car and replaces the rear axle carrier. There is a VIN range for affected vehicles (not all E46 cars will have this problem). That all being said he thinks it should be 0 points. It is a safety mod not a performance mod. Edit- Reading the campaign letter from BMW it does not specify any Vin Ranges, and they offer 2 different repairs for the affected vehicles Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PoBoyR6 Posted February 3, 2012 Author Share Posted February 3, 2012 Since I'm new to E46 M3s and haven't buried myself in all the gory details and sordid history (over to you Ken O) but it wouldn't surprise me if BMW offered two different types of repair. I figure one option would be something similar to the Turner kit to address minor cracks and the second option would be something that requires major tub section replacement in the case where you have massive areas of failure. Either way I haven't heard of only a certain VIN# being affected. It was my understanding that all E46 (and E36) cars had the weak subframe attachment point design flaw. Regardless of what BMW offers my mission here is to get the Turner kit blessed as a no points mod since that is the most cost effective solution for minor crack repair and preventative maintenance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ken o Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 I talked to someone familiar with this kit and cars. The Turner kit and BMW are completely different. BMW guts the car and replaces the rear axle carrier. There is a VIN range for affected vehicles (not all E46 cars will have this problem). That all being said he thinks it should be 0 points. It is a safety mod not a performance mod. Edit- Reading the campaign letter from BMW it does not specify any Vin Ranges, and they offer 2 different repairs for the affected vehicles BMW tried to repair it by basically pumping foam into the area between the interior and exterior, cheap and quick. When they found it did not work they went with the more aggressive method. BMW did recognize shops that did other types of repairs and reimbursed owners who had the repairs made. The danger is that you cannot see the cracks until you dropped the diff. Making this a 0 points mod will encourage M3 drivers to inspect their cars and make the correction before something happens on the track to themselves and others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dew-e Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 How is this any different than any number of E36 subframe re-inforcement kits that are on the market? http://www.turnermotorsport.com/image/suspension/TDR3675301_reinforcement_front_subframe_kit_E36_M3_3_series_BMW.jpg Or sway bar bracket reinforcements?? http://www.turnermotorsport.com/image/suspension/suspension_e36_rear_sway_bar_reinforcement_kit_e36_m3_TSU3675001_1.jpg These are the worts of a BMW. Given enough track duty, enough torque, and enough twisting of the frame, subframes and subframe mounts have been known to fail. In the case of the e46 M3, it just happens prematurely, and sometimes just with regular road use. Notice that the class action suit is for all e46 vehicles, but this is by far more common on the much higher horsepower M3. I would say you need to get the BTM repair done, or you take points. The rules don't care that the OE fix costs 10x what the turner kit costs. I've seen this type of problem fixed at a local shop by having the entire rear floor pan cut out and rewelded at the BTM joints. So it would stand to reason any type of repair that would have the final result of seam welding at the BTM seams would also be acceptable. Maybe the class action suit will make a difference, but since it was a settlement, and no fault or wrongdoing was acknowledged, I'm not sure why it would. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
National Staff Greg G. Posted February 3, 2012 National Staff Share Posted February 3, 2012 Under review by NASA. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
National Staff Greg G. Posted February 3, 2012 National Staff Share Posted February 3, 2012 So, the only way that BMW fixes this issue is either the failed foam method, or replacing the rear axle carrier? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlfpkrcn1 Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 Or apparently replacing the floor pan if the damage is severe enough. As in the diff ends up in the trunk... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
National Staff Greg G. Posted February 3, 2012 National Staff Share Posted February 3, 2012 Or apparently replacing the floor pan if the damage is severe enough. As in the diff ends up in the trunk... Sounds like a sneaky way to go for the extreme slam. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ken o Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 What I found is if the subframe had small cracks BMW was injecting foam in the area to attempt to strengthen the area. If the cracks were larger BMW was replacing the rear axle carrier. At that time it seems like BMW thought it only affected MY 2000 e46. Even when more people experienced the cracking, more frequent in the M3 model, BMW would not acknowledge the issue. A class action was filed resulting in an Oct 9, 2009 settlement covering 1999 - 2006 MY e46 3 series. As outlined in the settlement agreement BMW NA would reimburse for the repairs by independent shops or allowing dealers to make the repair themselves on a dealer by dealer case depending on the amount of damage. Some people with significant damage have had the floor pan replaced at a cost of several thousand dollars (~$6K). At this time dealers were getting reimbursed by BMW NA I think they took advantage of an open checkbook. Some have had the small cracks repaired and did not replace the floor pan. I found several interesting posts that the new floor pans will still fail on the track and require the additional metal and or foam. So cutting out the rear axle carrier and replace it does not fix the problem. Replacing the rear axle seems like a ton of work considering it will still crack if a Turner like kit is not used. To avoid a potential safety issue it seems most people who track the M3 are adding the Turner kit with cracks or without cracks. How does the Turner kit add a performance advantage? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varkwso Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 Per the TT Rules - bolding added. 1) Every vehicle must retain its OEM frame rails (or unibody), strut towers, floorpan, and subframe. Tube-frame chassis conversion (partial or complete) is not permitted without a waiver from the National TT Director. Floorpan modifications to include items such as subframe connectors, roll cage bracing, and fuel cell placement may be approved on a case-by-case basis by the National TT Director. Such modifications will be subject to approval and possible modification factor assessments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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