TTF (and PTF) in 2012 At Nationals. Who is in?

[Smike]

When a car holds all the TTF track records for Midwest and Great Lakes and no one comes close....no fun anymore.

It's not too hard to collect most of the track records in a region in TTF & PTF, especially if only a couple people run in the class. (I used to hold all the SE records in TTF, and now hold all of the TX ones. PTF is a different story, usually 5-10 great drivers every weekend)

 

I've seen the times they've posted for Mid-O, they're stout - but I know I can get pretty close

 

Up your car prep, try different setups, use your data aq better to see where you can go faster, hire a coach.

 

Switching classes just means you'll get beat by some other group of people.

 

No offense intended.

 

2s is pretty close. That 2nd place last year would be a good fight. 4 to 5s - different story.

 

Oh we do Ken. We do data review as well. And between our instructor base in the GL - we all coach each other.

 

It might. But at least the cars in the class are appropriately placed.

 

Personally, I'd rather run with those cars than let a car that is over-developed/classed incorrectly go out there to serve their own needs.

[Smike]

Back to work here.

 

I'll be at Nationals. Class to be determined.

[kbrew8991]

dropping out of the class such that they don't meet minimums won't put that car on the radar to be reevaluated

[CWeber]

 

It might. But at least the cars in the class are appropriately placed.

 

Personally, I'd rather run with those cars than let a car that is over-developed/classed incorrectly go out there to serve their own needs.

 

Wow! This is sounding a lot like the protests and complaints against the Pakistan Express Honda in E class who obviously has a great driver when the same car is 10 seconds slower being rented out at Grattan this past weekend!

 

Missy was in 4th place at Nationals last year but you keep bitching about the 1st place car??? How does that even make sense when she wasn't even close to 2nd place? So are all cars except yours wrongly classed now? Because again, it is all about the car and nothing at all to do with the driver?

 

Instead bitching and whining about something that is indeed appropriately classed and already easily proven here with our stats you demanded to know thinking you were calling out something that isn't even there, why not move over to a spec class like spec miata, Spec E30 or 944 spec and then you can see where your skills lie with everyone being in the same exact make/model car while still providing you plenty of competition?

[neon982004]

Wow, didnt really want drug in this heavy but thanks for the boost in confidence. Ill take the crap car and crap driver and I dont believe I ever said anything negative about Mike or his abilities.

[neon982004]

dropping out of the class such that they don't meet minimums won't put that car on the radar to be reevaluated

 

 

I also believe I stated I would not drop if it would cause the class to be cancelled.

[Smike]

 

It might. But at least the cars in the class are appropriately placed.

 

Personally, I'd rather run with those cars than let a car that is over-developed/classed incorrectly go out there to serve their own needs.

 

Wow! This is sounding a lot like the protests and complaints against the Pakistan Express Honda in E class who obviously has a great driver when the same car is 10 seconds slower being rented out at Grattan this past weekend!

 

Missy was in 4th place at Nationals last year but you keep bitching about the 1st place car??? How does that even make sense when she wasn't even close to 2nd place? So are all cars except yours wrongly classed now? Because again, it is all about the car and nothing at all to do with the driver?

 

Instead bitching and whining about something that is indeed appropriately classed and already easily proven here with our stats you demanded to know thinking you were calling out something that isn't even there, why not move over to a spec class like spec miata, Spec E30 or 944 spec and then you can see where your skills lie with everyone being in the same exact make/model car while still providing you plenty of competition?

 

Wow. Really? You've already admitted the G20 is not classed right. You opened your month and inserted your foot here.

 

She was 2s behind 2nd. Nope just your G car with its +39 points. As I've stated - I would have firmly protested this winter until I heard about the Sentra. Which I am more than happy to run against.

 

Haven't said one word about Mike or his ability to drive. Looking at the SM results from last weekend - he (or the car) was mid-pack. And no "our" here - you don't drive here. My issue is with the cars base classing. That's simple to understand, correct?

 

I have and do race "spec" classes. Thanks for asking. And yes, I will be doing so more next year with NASA.

[CWeber]

dropping out of the class such that they don't meet minimums won't put that car on the radar to be reevaluated

 

 

I also believe I stated I would not drop if it would cause the class to be cancelled.

 

^ yes, you did

 

and thanks for that

 

 

I think that was directed at SMike potentially dropping out of TTF actually (but I could be wrong)

[CWeber]

Haven't said one word about Mike or his ability to drive. Looking at the SM results from last weekend - he (or the car) was mid-pack.

 

yes indeed, the competition in Spec Miata is a lot more fierce! Mike was only running a 'fun run' on Sunday anyway at Grattan but back at Autobahn in April when he ran Spec Miata on Sunday officially, he got 3rd place out of 10 spec miata's so he can indeed drive well enough to podium in Spec Miata too!

 

 

My issue is with the cars base classing. That's simple to understand, correct?

 

 

Did you miss the part about the G20 Dyno reclass Mike also stated here showing we are still in F class regardless? Nothing to gain with a dyno reclass for the g20 the way you were able to step down to F from E with your SVT dyno reclass in other words.

Edited June 6, 2012 by Guest

[Smike]

dropping out of the class such that they don't meet minimums won't put that car on the radar to be reevaluated

 

 

I also believe I stated I would not drop if it would cause the class to be cancelled.

 

^ yes, you did

 

and thanks for that

 

 

I think that was directed at SMike potentially dropping out of TTF actually (but I could be wrong)

 

Actually, you are completely wrong. My car was E due to suspension and +13 tires. Had no exhaust (which is very hard to find an OEM SVT exhaust). It was cheaper to dyno and re-class than find a OE exhaust.

 

I'm done here and with you.

 

I'll be at Nationals. Class to be determined.

[Mike W.]

 

Wow. Really? You've already admitted the G20 is not classed right. You opened your month and inserted your foot here.

 

She was 2s behind 2nd. Nope just your G car with its +39 points. As I've stated - I would have firmly protested this winter until I heard about the Sentra. Which I am more than happy to run against.

 

Haven't said one word about Mike or his ability to drive. Looking at the SM results from last weekend - he (or the car) was mid-pack. And no "our" here - you don't drive here. My issue is with the cars base classing. That's simple to understand, correct?

 

I have and do race "spec" classes. Thanks for asking. And yes, I will be doing so more next year with NASA.

 

I think you need to reread what Chris wrote earlier.

 

"That PTE/TTE civic has the Grattan Track record at around 1:30 so the driver this past weekend simply wasn't as fast in it ..it is actually technically faster than the g20! <--- which it should be being an E car instead of an F car anyway! "

 

She was referring to the Civic as the E Car which is and should be faster than an F Car (G20). That same Civic with Brian at the wheel was 4.414 seconds faster than me in the G20 at Mid Ohio.

 

Here are the results from Nationals for F.

 

Michael Weber 1:46.345

Patrick Saunders 1:47.505 +1.16

Walter Carlos 1:49.255 + 2.91

Melissa Davis 1:50.049 +3.704

 

And Patrick missed two days on competition because of the head gasket blowing. So, the margin between 1st and 4th was 3.704 seconds and I was told that the Neon was down on power at nationals.

 

The F results are way closer than the E results for Nationals

Brian Makse 1:41.931

Mark Freemal 1:45.535 +3.604

Matt Montes 1:47.756 +5.825

 

By the way, the Sentra SE-R will also be an F Car running 130fwhp at 2545lbs dyno reclass

225 Hoosiers +11

Suspension +5

Brakes +2

 

Already has an LSD standard on the SE-R and has better gearing than the G20. So, better gearing, 200lbs less weight and the same engine as the G20

[Mike W.]

My issue is with the cars base classing. That's simple to understand, correct?

 

Let me understand this.

Margin of victory at Nationals 1.16 seconds.

First place car had driven Mid Ohio for two events prior to nationals. Second place car had never been to Mid Ohio prior to running at nationals (He did the test day but it was raining most of the day, if I remember correctly). Second place car only had two competition days to set a time because of a blown head gasket. My fastest time was set Sunday morning when Patrick didn't have a running car.

 

So, based on this you are saying the G20 base class is incorrect? Okay what should it be? Give me some data to back up your claim?

[SKroiss]

If i recall correctly, there was a green Neon that held the record at Gateway back before the G20 beat the time there (by less than a whole second). I think the Neon is a fine car for F. Heck the Aveo is a pretty good track car too.

[CWeber]

If i recall correctly, there was a green Neon that held the record at Gateway back before the G20 beat the time there. I think the Neon is a fine car for F. Heck the Aveo is a pretty good track car too.

 

Actually Steve, that Neon running in PTF still has the track record which is FASTER than the G20 that same exact weekend so the Neon is clearly also a very capable F car.

 

PTF Scott Rhea Dodge Neon 1:16.640 04/18/10

Time Trial F Michael Weber Infiniti G20 1:17.094 04/18/10

[SKroiss]

If i recall correctly, there was a green Neon that held the record at Gateway back before the G20 beat the time there. I think the Neon is a fine car for F. Heck the Aveo is a pretty good track car too.

 

Actually Steve, that Neon running in PTF still has the track record which is FASTER than the G20 that same exact weekend so the Neon is clearly also a very capable F car.

 

PTF Scott Rhea Dodge Neon 1:16.640 04/18/10

Time Trial F Michael Weber Infiniti G20 1:17.094 04/18/10

 

thanks just misread that.

[kbrew8991]

is that the booger green colored Neon that ran at Nationals at Miller in '09? Pretty good car, fits F well imho.

[CWeber]

^ Since I wasn't at NASA Nationals in 09, I honestly don't know for sure. Did it have an Izzy's cages graphic on it somewhere? I thought I remember that on the Neon at Gateway in 2010. Clearly the Neon can be set up to be a heck of a contender in F class though

[kbrew8991]

looked up the old results, car was listed as being driven by Kumar Viswalingam

[ILIKETODRIVE]

looked up the old results, car was listed as being driven by Kumar Viswalingam

[Mike W.]

I still haven't seen the stats on the Neon that I supposedly out power and out corner. We have already established that the G20 does NOT out power the Focus in any stretch of the imagination.

 

Let's look at the unadjusted power to weight for all three cars.

G20 132fwhp at 2738lbs = 20.7lbs per hp

Focus 155fwhp at 2825lbs = 18.2lbs per hp

Neon, since I don't know the actual hp let's assume 10% drivetrain loss and use the published hp for a SOHC of 132hp since I know the car doesn't have a cat anymore. Also since I don't know the actual competition weight the base weight in the rules is 2400lbs.

So, the estimated fwhp is 119hp assuming the 10% loss.

119fwhp at 2400lbs = 20.1lbs per hp

 

So, the Focus is on top at 18.2 which is outside of F class until you apply the adjustments and then it just makes it.

The Neon and the G20 are just about dead even but without actual numbers for the Neon I can not be exactly correct.

 

Again please enlighten me on why the base class of the G20 is incorrect.

 

The dyno re-class that was received after Nationals for G20 also puts it at an unadjusted 20lbs per hp. 135fwhp at 2700lbs.

[neon982004]

I still haven't seen the stats on the Neon that I supposedly out power and out corner. We have already established that the G20 does NOT out power the Focus in any stretch of the imagination.

 

Let's look at the unadjusted power to weight for all three cars.

G20 132fwhp at 2738lbs = 20.7lbs per hp

Focus 155fwhp at 2825lbs = 18.2lbs per hp

Neon, since I don't know the actual hp let's assume 10% drivetrain loss and use the published hp for a SOHC of 132hp since I know the car doesn't have a cat anymore. Also since I don't know the actual competition weight the base weight in the rules is 2400lbs.

So, the estimated fwhp is 119hp assuming the 10% loss.

119fwhp at 2400lbs = 20.1lbs per hp

 

So, the Focus is on top at 18.2 which is outside of F class until you apply the adjustments and then it just makes it.

The Neon and the G20 are just about dead even but without actual numbers for the Neon I can not be exactly correct.

 

Again please enlighten me on why the base class of the G20 is incorrect.

 

The dyno re-class that was received after Nationals for G20 also puts it at an unadjusted 20lbs per hp. 135fwhp at 2700lbs.

 

I prefer to be taken out of this conversation please. I will drive my car in whatever class works out and go from there. You will never see the numbers for the Neon as it has never been on a dyno.

[neon982004]

I still haven't seen the stats on the Neon that I supposedly out power and out corner. We have already established that the G20 does NOT out power the Focus in any stretch of the imagination.

 

Let's look at the unadjusted power to weight for all three cars.

G20 132fwhp at 2738lbs = 20.7lbs per hp

Focus 155fwhp at 2825lbs = 18.2lbs per hp

Neon, since I don't know the actual hp let's assume 10% drivetrain loss and use the published hp for a SOHC of 132hp since I know the car doesn't have a cat anymore. Also since I don't know the actual competition weight the base weight in the rules is 2400lbs.

So, the estimated fwhp is 119hp assuming the 10% loss.

119fwhp at 2400lbs = 20.1lbs per hp

 

So, the Focus is on top at 18.2 which is outside of F class until you apply the adjustments and then it just makes it.

The Neon and the G20 are just about dead even but without actual numbers for the Neon I can not be exactly correct.

 

Again please enlighten me on why the base class of the G20 is incorrect.

 

The dyno re-class that was received after Nationals for G20 also puts it at an unadjusted 20lbs per hp. 135fwhp at 2700lbs.

 

I prefer to be taken out of this conversation please. I will drive my car in whatever class works out and go from there. You will never see the numbers for the Neon as it has never been on a dyno.

 

 

And PS ...it does still have a cat.

[Smike]

I am with Missy. It's our choice what class/car to run.

 

What most annoys me most is your wife pushing for contingency. We've all read it as an assumption you'll be winning and are in it for nothing more than that - since post one. And from what I have pushed for...she is not even driving in F. I am glad to see I have you attention now; since you are driving.

 

G20 has gobs of points for suspension, weight, tires (compound and width). Try a true F based car -- 19 points. What if you had a * or **. Then what?

 

139lbs under weight +9

Suspension +5

added LSD +3

Header +2

Cat removal +1

Modified exhaust +2

Tire compound +10

tire width 225 +7

Total points +39

 

Mod to 19 points:

Suspension +5

added LSD +3

Cat removal +1

Tire compound +10

 

Hey, it's great that you found the manipulation of the rules and the car that fit it. The point of F or any PT/TT is close, evenly matched cars. Makes it a drivers fight. Maybe you just are Senna reincarnated or maybe you just have a cannon in a knife fight of a car. Yes, I would have protested the car this last winter if you announced that you were racing it this season.

 

Re-read what I said before - SVTF has power (all 23whp more) and 87 more pounds - no suspension, street tires (per rules). Neon has handling and light weight. G20 has everything. 2s is a race. 4s is not.

 

I'll be at Nationals. Class to be determined.

[Mike W.]

Yes, it is your choice what class and car to run but then why insist that the base class of a car is wrong just because it is faster than your car. Look back at your posts you insisted that the G20 had more power than both other cars which is not true.

 

If the G20 was base classed as F it would not be at the same weight. Also tire size for G is 195 and F is 215, so that is 6 more points that I would not have to take if base classed in F.

 

You still haven't shown me why the G20 should be base classed to anything else but G. Give me the information that is based on?

 

Take the specifications for all three cars in questions, using the stock crank horsepower numbers and the base competition weight here is what you get.

 

G20 140hp at 2877lbs = 20.55

Focus SVT 170hp at 2750lbs = 16.17

Neon SOHC 132hp at 2400 = 18.18

 

All three cars are front wheel drive, the Neon and G20 are both 4 doors. Clearly they should not be base classed the same with numbers as shown above. So, if the G20 should be moved to F than the numbers would look more like this 140hp at 2545lbs = 18.18

 

I have developed the car over 4 years making sure every modifications is worth the points. Saying the car is not classed correctly because it is faster than an under prepared Neon is not basis for protest. Yes, the Neon is under prepared if it still has a cat on it and has never been dynoed, the car could be down 15hp and would never know.

 

If we don't have enough people in F at nationals, it will disappear as a national class. Having enough people for the possibility of free stuff also helps when people are deciding on whether to run or not. I race as a hobby, all of our extra money goes to racing, getting free stuff or even money helps the cause.

 

As I have stated before the second place car at nationals was 1.16 seconds behind me, if you remove the lap I pulled on Sunday after his car was broken the difference 0.8 seconds, so how does make the G20 classed wrong. I am confident that Patrick could have closed the gap if he had Saturday and Sunday to work with. The RX-7 was 2.9 seconds behind also.

 

If there were guarantees in racing why would anyone show up to compete. Show me class that doesn't have one or two cars that dominate on a regional level. F just has the smallest turn out regionally and nationally so you don't get large cross section of vehicles.

 

If I can find a way to get two cars to nationals for no added cost, then yes my wife will be competing in F with the Sentra or G20 depending which one I like best. I have high hopes that the Sentra will be even faster than the G20 since it is the same engine and will be 200lbs lighter.

[neon982004]

Welp, looking unfortunately poor for TTF. The SVT for Mike no longer exists....well prolly does in some kids grandpas woods somewhere so thats out and my car was attacked by miatas at Mid Ohio. At best, Ill be there wounded....and Mike is out