cosm3os Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 When I TT'd in 07 and 08, I was one of the very few who were running a dedicated car (read: gutted, track only, built to the rules), so my car was much closer to running W2W than driving on the street. As I understand it, TT has been moving slowly toward dedicated cars and away from the guy who wants to compete in his DD. The tipping point for me was the realization that I was spending the same money to run 10 laps a day. Note I say the same money. If you are competing to win, it doesn't matter whether its TT or W2W, the cost in money and time for prep and consumables to run at the front is the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yakisoba Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 Ken said it first in the thread: TT and W2W are different things. However, you can learn valuable skills in one discipline that carry over to the other. Just like some autocross skills transfer well to road racing. TT teaches you to make that hot lap, right now. You have to have that discipline to do well. That translates well into racing, when you have to know when to 'push' and attack. I can't speak from personal experience about the other side of the coin, because I've not raced W2W. I can speculate that once you get used to doing W2W, fatigue is not an issue, and that reliability would also be an afterthought (taken care of, if your car can run a full race and not break). I don't see TT as a stepping stone to W2W, but rather as a destination in itself. It's that much different. As for cost, do we care that much? I mean, this is a hobby, a passion. You spend what you can get away with, IMO. I could see a tradeoff like this: Run TTU or race CMC. Equivalent costs, assuming if you're racing you are not instructing? If you're not instructing at all, the cost is not too different to race vs. TT, except for consumables. Gas, brakes and tires will wear out three times as fast racing as TT, or thereabouts. Just more laps, harder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hagakure Posted February 8, 2012 Author Share Posted February 8, 2012 As I said earlier, I passed the license test, have one race under my belt, and will continue to race to loose the rookie status. I raced bicycles competitively for 13 years. In the lower categories there is a lot of (expected ) crashing in the mid-field, and as you progress there is a whole lot less. In the upper categories situational awareness is better, people stay on the racing line fast and smoothly, when someone leans on you in a criterium, you don't panic.... In a ton of NASA races I have seen stupid stupid shit so many times. People making impossible attempts to pass, desperado dive-bombing in corners...etc. I'm not worried at all taking someone else out..and better yet some folks racing year after year with a KNOWN reputation for causing chaos who are neve take to task for it. I never caused a crash in all my years of bike racing in much closer quarters, and yes, I rode at the front. I'm confident of my ability not to do that. I know I won't try to win in the first corner...but there are a lot of guys that do. I just don't know if I'm cut out in the end analysis to walk away from $$ 20,000 of racecar that someone just destroyed and walk up to the guy shake his hand and just say..."that's racing"...which I KNOW you have to be willing to do. So, for now, I'll take it one weekend at a time. I do enjoy TT a lot, so that's a good fall-back if I"m not happy with racing. Good feedback here though! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hagakure Posted February 8, 2012 Author Share Posted February 8, 2012 The Diff being what you need to budget for potential (inevitable) crash damage. Yes, you can crash in TT, but the odds for damage are much much lower. Ken said it first in the thread: TT and W2W are different things. However, you can learn valuable skills in one discipline that carry over to the other. Just like some autocross skills transfer well to road racing. TT teaches you to make that hot lap, right now. You have to have that discipline to do well. That translates well into racing, when you have to know when to 'push' and attack. I can't speak from personal experience about the other side of the coin, because I've not raced W2W. I can speculate that once you get used to doing W2W, fatigue is not an issue, and that reliability would also be an afterthought (taken care of, if your car can run a full race and not break). I don't see TT as a stepping stone to W2W, but rather as a destination in itself. It's that much different. As for cost, do we care that much? I mean, this is a hobby, a passion. You spend what you can get away with, IMO. I could see a tradeoff like this: Run TTU or race CMC. Equivalent costs, assuming if you're racing you are not instructing? If you're not instructing at all, the cost is not too different to race vs. TT, except for consumables. Gas, brakes and tires will wear out three times as fast racing as TT, or thereabouts. Just more laps, harder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cosm3os Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 I've had a few donuts on my racecars, but my most expensive shunt was in TT. If you are talking about shunts that total the car--I bet there's very little difference between TT and W2W. You just get more little stuff in W2W. If you aren't anal about your racecar (it IS a racecar, afterall), you can fix most things in your garage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hagakure Posted February 8, 2012 Author Share Posted February 8, 2012 I've had a few donuts on my racecars, but my most expensive shunt was in TT. If you are talking about shunts that total the car--I bet there's very little difference between TT and W2W. You just get more little stuff in W2W. If you aren't anal about your racecar (it IS a racecar, afterall), you can fix most things in your garage. Maybe I'm paranoid...but I've seen a lot more cars get collected, run up over the top of, etc. in race groups than in TT in the past 8 years...but, I need to just see how it shakes out to test my risk aversion. And no, a racecar does not have to be pristine, I agree! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbrew8991 Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 alot of how "rough" racing is will boil down to the club you run with and sometimes there's even large differences between classes / run groups. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cobra4B Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 Nonsense...if you drive flat out, you dont need TT first. That is how I drive.. Good point... no need for HPDE either... everyone on track at the same time... last car standing wins Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 Nonsense...if you drive flat out, you dont need TT first. That is how I drive.. Good point... no need for HPDE either... everyone on track at the same time... last car standing wins Toy race. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vinny Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 Money. Being you can instruct and run TT..doing the math it'd cost me 2-3x more then what my events cost me now...I'd rather run all 8 of the nasa events in my region TTing then run 4 of them racing. I know if i race once, i'll probably never TT again as im driven hard by competition. So TT is cheaper because NASA is subsidizing your entry fee. Not everybody is running TT for free. What if NASA entry fee subsidizing went away? Would there be a difference in costs between the two (TT/W2W) if you were paying the full entry fees. If so how much? How much "at the limit" track time do you get in TT vs W2W? I not try to start an argument, just wanting to know if there is a true cost difference between the two. I could see that you use more brake pads in a given weekend W2W. If you amortize it on time spent at the limit it would even out. Not sure the the difference between a 13/10/7 point tire in cost per event? A weekend to weekend cost on paper I'm sure is very similar, what you can't plan for is car damage from other cars as stated in this thread. If i got in a bad wreck I couldn't replace my car right away. I feel like my chances of either wrecking and or getting hurt is far greater in w2w. I say that also knowing i drive the car at the limit 99% of the time, i dont know how to back it down a notch anymore. My car is a dedicated TT/track car, but as you've stated I'd still have quite a start up cost for comp school between the safety gear i need. I run TT for $50 a weekend for entry fees, and have been lucky enough to not pay for tires in almost 2 years. W2w i would i would think is harder on the car, but that's not really a huge concern of mine as i use to beat the snot out of the car in DE weekends 30minutes at a time. Now in TT i usually do 3-4 laps at most. I agree with most saying TT should be a required step to get a race license, in fact to me why anyone who is running 2-3 seconds off pace in there projected class would want to go W2W quickly is beyond me. Hone your craft, get fast....go compete, it's safer for everyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperkins Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 You give me 30 guys in a race group and I can tell you without hesitation which 15 of them skipped TT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drivinhardz06 Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 You give me 30 guys in a race group and I can tell you without hesitation which 15 of them skipped TT. Give me 30 guys in a race group, let me pick the 15 I want to race with, and I'd race a lot more Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWeber Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 (edited) You give me 30 guys in a race group and I can tell you without hesitation which 15 of them skipped TT. yeah, but there are also plenty of people in TT I'd rather not ever see in w2w (they are too timid and don't understand open passing and lack situational awareness never seem to realize when someone is about to pass them, etc.) Edited February 9, 2012 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vinny Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 you find that in every group. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWeber Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 ^ true enough Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cobra4B Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 yeah, but there are also plenty of people in TT I'd rather not ever see in w2w (they are too timid and don't understand open passing and lack situational awareness never seem to realize when someone is about to pass them, etc.) That's what comp school is for. Here in MA it's no joke and quite rigorous on the driver and the car. You screw up, you can't cut it, you don't get your provisional. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWeber Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 ^ actually, I'm most concerned about being predictable (keeping your line, etc.) and see many TTers who still don't seem to know the line and it makes me wonder how they managed to get to that point Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbrew8991 Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 ^ actually, I'm most concerned about being predictable (keeping your line, etc.) and see many TTers who still don't seem to know the line and it makes me wonder how they managed to get to that point that's an issue with your TT group then, too easy to get passed up out of DE3. No offense intended Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
speedengineer Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 ^ actually, I'm most concerned about being predictable (keeping your line, etc.) and see many TTers who still don't seem to know the line and it makes me wonder how they managed to get to that point that's an issue with your TT group then, too easy to get passed up out of DE3. No offense intended I have a feeling there are some TT drivers in every region that could have used a few more weekends in HPDE. Drivers are passed off primarily on they ability to 'drive safe and be aware' rather than because of their skill to drive a fast lap. Keep in mind that drivers who are passed out of HPDE 3/4 can enter into either TT or race groups... which is why I think drivers should spend at least some time in TT to fully hone their skill before heading off to w2w. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcindric Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 Being an instructor, driving in TT, and lastly doing checkoff rides for TT I agree with everyone. MY PROPOSAL was to have a TT provisional also. Lasy year at MO during the summer there were some new TT guys who were clearly over their head, needed more 4 level , and were clearly all over the place, unpredictable. IT can be fixed, just maybe with everyone there for the Nationals was a bad time for their baptism. JMC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fixxxercask Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 ^ actually, I'm most concerned about being predictable (keeping your line, etc.) and see many TTers who still don't seem to know the line and it makes me wonder how they managed to get to that point that's an issue with your TT group then, too easy to get passed up out of DE3. No offense intended I have a feeling there are some TT drivers in every region that could have used a few more weekends in HPDE. Drivers are passed off primarily on they ability to 'drive safe and be aware' rather than because of their skill to drive a fast lap. Keep in mind that drivers who are passed out of HPDE 3/4 can enter into either TT or race groups... which is why I think drivers should spend at least some time in TT to fully hone their skill before heading off to w2w. I agree. Last year was my first year in TT. Over the course of the year I have progressed greatly as a driver and I know you have too Jason. I have picked up about 3 seconds at MO from April until Nats with no changes to the car. If I would have dove into W2W in April I would be way behind the pack. I have also been able to gain a lot of awareness in TT because people pass much more aggressively in TT than in DE3/4 and just getting more relaxed and comfortable with my car. Seat time, seat time seat time. Can never have enough. Although, like you said, people are signed off based on being able to drive safe and have awareness. There are still some guys I run up on and wonder how/why on earth are they in TT. Those are the people that scare me to pass because you run up on them so quickly, you wonder if they even saw you coming. I would not want those people in W2W with me. I would hope comp school is very rigorous like someone said. I feel I can still get faster this year and hone my skills some more. Next year I will probably make the step to W2W. I am still trying to find that perfect setup for the car too. I don't feel like making that step until I feel those things are in line. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beerkat Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 ...but I've seen a lot more cars get collected, run up over the top of, etc. in race groups than in TT in the past 8 years...! I believe that part of the reason you see less car damage in TT than in Racing is do in part to being disqualified if you spin or go four off. When you spend your money to run you want every session to count. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryancohnracing Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 I'm actually moving from W2W to TT for the specific purpose of wanting a new challenge. I'll still do some W2W races in the family PTE Miata, but my focus for 2012 is running TT in my Peugeot 505 Turbo. As Ken pointed out on the first page of this thread, its two very different skill sets. TT requires a driver to excel at capitalizing on an opportunity for a good lap with little to no warning. Sure, you get 4-5 sessions per day but with traffic, weather, etc the driver must be ready to pounce when the perfect situation presents itself. Its finding the needle in the haystack. I like that idea of that challenge. Similar to qualifying for a W2W race but more intense. W2W requires a long term focus, race craft, willingness to use the rules to your advantage (such as the 3/4 car width rule), bravery and risk taking at race starts. Qualifying is a bit less important in that a good racer with excellent race craft skills can make up for a poor qualifying position. I'm looking forward to the new challenge! April at GMP hurry up and get here! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Z06 Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 There are a variety of reason some compete in W2W and others in TT. The most common reason is accidents in W2W. We have all heard the expression "rubbing is race'n.". No its not. That's called a demolition derby. If your rubbing or bumping someone, the people behind are catching you. With TT, there are no excuses for an on track incident between cars. I would rather spend money improving my car than spend time and money fixing from some bonehead hitting it. I'll do my own boneheaded damage to it. Freaking tire wall came out of no where and hit my car! Ugh! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hagakure Posted February 9, 2012 Author Share Posted February 9, 2012 I think David's(very well put) comments reflect my biggest gripe with what I see in Amatuer, and in many cases, pro racing. There is not enough incentive for people to race quickly, closely, but cleanly. there is MUCH that sanctioning bodies can do to improve this, and they are just not doing it. Randy Pobst has written pretty eloquently on the topic here: http://www.randypobst.com/index.cfm?template=magazine&mag_id=14922 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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