Why TT and not racing?

[Varkwso]

Getting the yellow lap right sets the tone for a TT session. Fixing infractions fast is key. There is almost always a few newbies . Sadly, too often, it is not them that decide to be special. It is pretty well sorted in the Southeast.

[kbrew8991]

when heads get knocked together next TX event you guys will now know why. It's not fun, but obviously there are some out there on too long a leash ruining it for everyone...

[beerkat]

We here in the SE have a great director. When someone is not playing nice he makes them go away.

[dew-e]

I often skip session 1 on Sunday but I'll get waived up front because as you've mentioned the fast guys will hurt a slower cars lap also if they have to pass.

 

Making exceptions is when problems start to happen. Set your gridding rules, make sure everybody understands them, and stick to them, regardless of why somebody thinks they should be gridded farther up.

[sperkins]

I often skip session 1 on Sunday but I'll get waived up front because as you've mentioned the fast guys will hurt a slower cars lap also if they have to pass.

 

Making exceptions is when problems start to happen. Set your gridding rules, make sure everybody understands them, and stick to them, regardless of why somebody thinks they should be gridded farther up.

Agreed. Those decisions should be made between competitors - not officials.

[drivinhardz06]

We here in the SE have a great director. When someone is not playing nice he makes them go away.

 

Do you think he lives in the backwoods where he can hide bodies for no reason?

[Z06]

This way You have a chance to make your first lap your fast lap if you scrub adequately. I can now typically get 2 flat out laps before lapping the field at most tracks.

 

Now for this to work for practice and session one egos need to be in check and the field needs to line up so the fastest are first. We don't have a problem with that here as far as I can tell.

 

Now late comers get screwed but too bad. If you are late to line up, the entire field gets one hot lap before you can enter the track.

 

It works like a charm!

 

Thanks,

Phil Grabow

 

 

I like these suggestions. David, KB and Sean this sounds like a great model.

[Element Tuning]

I often skip session 1 on Sunday but I'll get waived up front because as you've mentioned the fast guys will hurt a slower cars lap also if they have to pass.

 

Making exceptions is when problems start to happen. Set your gridding rules, make sure everybody understands them, and stick to them, regardless of why somebody thinks they should be gridded farther up.

Agreed. Those decisions should be made between competitors - not officials.

 

Yep that's how it's done. You guys need to work together as a group to do whats in everyone's best interest. This is where egos can get in the way however. Other than two of my class competitors the next fastest car this past weekend was almost 8 seconds a lap slower (1:13 at Summit Point compared to most of the field 1:21 or slower). If I lined up in the back of the field I couldn't leave a big enough gap and I would ruin too many peoples fast laps. I would have to do this so I could move up the grid for the next race if I wasn't given that courtesy by my competitors. On day two most of you guys know where you stand and most likely are friends or know the group that surrounds you. If I know I'm having issues, regardless of prior times, I'll ask my competitors if they want to line up in front of me. The respect has to go both ways. Now if you all hate each other well, good luck!

 

At Ultimate Track Car Challenge this year my transponder was acting up and I wasn't getting times other than what I did in practice which put me in the top 4 so I was placed consistently within the competitors times (as they changed throughout the day).

 

We don't have many issues in Mid-Atlantic and it sounds like the SE is also a tight ship (I think MA got the idea from the SE) so follow what's working for these regions. Set the rules, follow them, enforce them, and let competitors use common sense to readjust the field. If a competitor thinks I shouldn't be in front of him so be it, I'll respect that.

[kbrew8991]

Before Jeff England was the only SE Time Trial director he was a co-director with me. And before that it was myself & Chris DeSalvo co-directing. And about the time the switch in the co-directors happened is when that whole grid by time, pace lap, etc stuff started. I saw it done like that in my first trip to Nationals 2006 and thought "gee, this could make our regional events run better!" so with Jeffs help we talked Pantas into letting things run that way and with great success - the region grew by leaps and bounds. Also around that time I remember a certain Mid-Atlantic area TT director visiting our events and him liking what he saw on those prodcedures and him implementing them at VIR and such. So yeah David, tell me that I should be doing things just like their regions are doing when I was one of the driving forces behind that all starting in those regions in the first place.

 

 

What's going on is you guys (TX) are on too long a leash compared to the maturity and responsibility levels of the group. That leash is getting tigthened up, so stop posting about it. If this means I've gotta sit out my races to babysit you guys like I did all last year and the start of this year (thanks broken car!) I guess that's what has to be done. All you're doing with your posts now is bashing our group and causing people to think we run a B-rate event and not want to come out and run with us. When by and large other than you and maybe a couple other people tops everyone is happy, getting plenty of clean track to work with, enjoying themselves, and not making post after post after post bitching and moaning and telling the directors that they suck and are doing a bad job. And before you say "well I didn't say THAT", well, you are here and in the other threads too. At the very least it's implied and it isn't appreciated.

 

Over & Out.

[Element Tuning]

What's going on is you guys (TX) are on too long a leash compared to the maturity and responsibility levels of the group. That leash is getting tigthened up, so stop posting about it. If this means I've gotta sit out my races to babysit you guys like I did all last year and the start of this year (thanks broken car!) I guess that's what has to be done. All you're doing with your posts now is bashing our group and causing people to think we run a B-rate event and not want to come out and run with us. When by and large other than you and maybe a couple other people tops everyone is happy, getting plenty of clean track to work with, enjoying themselves, and not making post after post after post bitching and moaning and telling the directors that they suck and are doing a bad job. And before you say "well I didn't say THAT", well, you are here and in the other threads too. At the very least it's implied and it isn't appreciated.

 

Over & Out.

 

I knew it wasn't an original idea and never was claimed to be by our director I just couldn't remember where the idea came from. Start cracking the whip on these boys!

 

If there are any key things that make our group implement this well, I would say it's the respect among competitors, the enforcement, and the leader of the pack. I'm not always the leader and I've seen other do this also, but if I see the field too strung out, after the pace car takes off I'll slow up some to bring everyone within a reasonable distance. If the field is thin I'll go a little faster so we get more track time.

 

In any event in our region the top 3-5 TT cars are the fastest cars on the track for a given weekend. TT can be as competitive or as fun as you make it, it can be expensive or inexpensive, so it's whatever you make of it. A class record setting TT car with a driver who cares about his or her safety will spend just as much on the car as a W2W racer maybe even more since race craft doesn't come into play, it's only time. As far as consumables are concerned, it's a matter of how serious you take it and the setup of your car. A full on qualifying setup is much harder on the tires than a car setup for a long race but because a winning TT competitor is going to bow out when traffic is in the way it might extend the life.

 

Here is basically what I wear out in a weekend:

 

2.5 events out of the bump steer kit and lower ball joints, 1 gallon of race fuel a lap, 2 gallons of race oil every two races, about 12 laps out of the front brake pads, and about 18 laps out of the Hoosier R80 slicks I run. So I'm not sure what it costs you W2W racers but that's $2382 in consumables per event!!!! Now thank God for Hoosier tire contingencies and winning. This year however I've only won a single tire since they adopted the new 5 car class minimum.

[kbrew8991]

Wasn't aiming at anyone in particular, just a history lesson was all It wasn't all my original idea either, as I copied National and had to get alot of help from the region, the other directors, etc to get it going and keep it going.

 

Then I moved to back home to TX for work and got thrust back into the TT director role just to start over from near-scratch again frustrating but rewarding at times... been at it since 2005ish. Not a rookie director anymore

[Z06]

KB,

 

Since you won't reply to my PM, have you noticed these issues or were you just waiting for someone to complain to take action? And now that I have brought it up, you want to throw me under the bus? Which is completely fine with me.

 

Do you even understand what I have written or do you still think I am baselessly bashing the group? Which I am not doing! If that's the case, you don't understand what I have written. I see a change happening to TT and I don't like it. Before it gets out of hand, I am going to address it.

 

I, and other's, have spent money on cars to come out play, compete, and have fun in TT. Protect the group is all I am asking.

[kbrew8991]

heaven forbid I actually get something done at work David, esp since it was stuff that I finally got the info that I needed to complete at 3 and that was due at 5 today.

 

About to head out the door to dinner, will write a real response later.

 

PS - you could stand to have more patience. Online and in the car too...

[Z06]

Dude racing is way more important that work. Work is overrated.

 

Patience is not my strength in some situations.

[ken o]

This is my 3rd year in TX TT. I have found the group running the events and the drivers to be very good overall. When something or someone needed to be addressed the directors have been on top of it. Issues have been handled in a diplomatic (NASA) way to offer guidance to the driver and present a learning experience not just a boot to the head. I think the key is that this must be done at the track.

 

The group has grown each year thanks to the people involved. Most of the TT drivers are green and still developing. The group is growing, we will have growing pains and we will need to tweak as a group. But we have veteran drivers and good leadership making changes and offering advice.

 

I look forward to running future events in TT and making the transition to W2W.

[kbrew8991]

not much more needs to be said than "We're on it" and "Tell us at the track".

 

If I have to post that again I'll start holding people on grid in retaliation

[dew-e]

Agreed. Those decisions should be made between competitors - not officials.

 

Yep that's how it's done. You guys need to work together as a group to do whats in everyone's best interest. This is where egos can get in the way however. Other than two of my class competitors the next fastest car this past weekend was almost 8 seconds a lap slower (1:13 at Summit Point compared to most of the field 1:21 or slower). If I lined up in the back of the field I couldn't leave a big enough gap and I would ruin too many peoples fast laps. I would have to do this so I could move up the grid for the next race if I wasn't given that courtesy by my competitors.

 

Why have gridding rules if you are going to allow competitors to change how they grid up? If there are 20 competitors that you want to jump in front of, are you asking all of them if you can move up? How do the people working gridding know that all of those people approved? Let's assume that you jump in front of 20 people, then on your first hot lap you spin in the third corner and throw crap all over the track. Now everybody behind you is at a disadvantage because that corner is low on grip. Or even worse, lets say something serious happens, and everybody behind you never gets a chance to run a fast lap. All it takes is for one or two people to complain that you should not have been in front of them to begin with based on the gridding rules for your region and now the director has a sh1t storm to deal with. I think the courteous thing to do would be to go out, try not to pass people in corners, but instead use that horsepower to pass them on the straights where it is much less likely that you will slow them down. You may not be able to turn your fastest lap, but that would be polite and also following the rules.

 

If it were a race group, you wouldn't be able to change your grid spot, why should TT grid be treated any differently? I'm 100% ok with the people working the grid sticking 100% to the gridding order with no changes even if it means that a faster car ends up behind me and that slows me down at some point as they get around me. The same situation happens when people are late to grid, and a lot of TT drivers in our region also instruct, and if they are spending extra time with their student, being late to grid is very possible.

 

Once you start making exceptions, everybody will want the same exceptions. When you can't grant everybody the exception they want, people get pissed and think that other people have an unfair advantage. The only way to avoid this is to have rules and follow them. Ultimately, it is up to each coordinator and their region, but I'm glad that our region has taken a very by the rules stance on gridding procedures. The coordinators and grid marshalls are volunteers, and they don't deserve the crap that they can get when exceptions start to happen and people are not happy with it.

[Vinny]

Eh I'm 100% behind the gentleman's agreement being in one of the "slower" straight away cars. Our region (MA) consistently has the same guys in it that you know each other well. Nothing sucks more then having an entire session lifting behind cars that you can't get around in a straight away.

 

Also for an example when Phil is running between 20-25 seconds a lap faster then the middle of the field, he comes up on people fast. It's safer for everyone to grid the fast car's up front. He's no more likely to spin/go off then anyone else driving on the edge.

[getfast]

Applicable text from mid-atlantic TT supplemental rules for the most recent event... feel free to use in other regions

 

 

 

 

Gridding for a "TT Only" Warm-Up Session:

Please line up by car class, in order from theoretical fastest (TTR) to theoretical

slowest (TTF.) Times will only be taken to make sure your transponders are functioning

properly, and to give us some basis for lining up the first timed session if necessary.

Your warmup times will not count toward the results.

 

Gridding for Timed Session #1:

Please line up again by car class, in order from theoretical fastest (TTR) to

theoretical slowest (TTF.) The grid staff may use the warmup times for reference when

lining you up, but your actual grid spot is up to you.

Please note: the "Gentlemen's Agreement" grid system is in place for warmups and first

timed sessions. That is, lining up for the warmup as well as the first timed session can

certainly be a group activity meant to benefit every driver. If you know someone is

faster than you regardless of class and regardless of warmup times, feel free to let 'em

grid in front of you. If we each take a few seconds to talk to each other and make sure

the car gridded in front of us is probably faster and the car gridded behind us is

possibly slower, this will work out great - clean laps for everyone from the start of

each session being the goal of course, not immediate traffic that could've been avoided.

 

Gridding for later Timed Sessions:

The grid staff will help you line up according to your prior session times (for the

second timed session of the day) or your best time of the day so far (for the third and

later timed sessions of the day) to minimize unwanted congestion on track. They reserve

the right to make you start from the back and/or wait until the pack has completed at

least one lap if you are late to grid (i.e. if you arrive after the 5-minute call) or if

you have no time on the sheet for whatever reason. We will be lining later sessions up

by "fastest time so far that day" not "fastest time in the prior timed session." We may

also use Saturday results to line up the first Sunday session.

 

Worth mentioning again, if you get to grid late (i.e. after the 5-minute call) you may

be held until after the pack has completed at least one hot lap. This is so no

participant has to deal with traffic early in a timed session, and so everyone has the

best chance of getting clear "flyer" laps as a result. Everyone has the same right to

clear track early in the session, whether they're driving a 90hp TTF car or a 900hp TTR

car. So those who are late to grid may certainly lose track time as a result.

 

Going On Track at the start of any Session:

It is required that you maintain a 3 to 5 car-length gap on either end of your vehicle

during the "roll on roll off" out lap behind the pace car - please do not follow too

closely or bunch up the field or hang back, it just hurts everyone's chances at getting

a clear "flyer" lap early in each session. We will absolutely penalize drivers who

cannot follow these simple instructions. Also please do not scrub your tires after the

first three corners, and if you must scrub tires, please make sure you do it laterally

(side-to-side) not by rapidly accelerating then braking, because that really messes up

the proper spacing between cars at the start (which is, again, essential if everyone is

going to get clean laps when the green flag flies.)

 

TT Session First Lap/Pace Car Procedure:

Again for 2012 we have a different out lap procedure for TT than we do for HPDE and race

groups. This is so each of you can 'get a run' to the green flag and get a 10/10ths

first lap if you wish. The pace car speed is typically 45mph. You must follow the pace

car at that speed - again maintaining the aforementioned 3 to 5 car gap between each of

you - UNTIL the pace car gets to T11 (VIR - right hander, oak tree corner onto the back

straight) or T5 (Summit Point - tight left hander at the bottom of the hill, into the

carousel.) The pace car will then go "lights out" if the field is definitely about to

take the green flag, and accelerate away from the pack. DO NOT SPEED UP WITH THE PACE

CAR, SIMPLY MAINTAIN WHATEVER SPEED THE PACE CAR WAS DOING (again est maximum 45mph.)

Then, once the pace car is long gone, begin accelerating to your full pace NO EARLIER

THAN AT T14 (VIR top of the hill into rollercoaster) or T8 (Summit exit of carousel

before right hand uphill), with the end goal being full-tilt-boogie by the time to you

get to the turn-in for T16 (VIR left hander before T17 hogpen right hander onto front

straight) or T10 (Summit fast uphill right hander onto front straight.) Again DO NOT

EXCEED WHATEVER MAXIMUM SPEED THE PACE CAR WAS DOING UNTIL YOU GET TO T14 (VIR) or T8

(Summit) IF NOT LATER. The goal here is to get the pace car way ahead of you and on pit

road early, so you can get a run through the last corner before the front straight

without getting held up by said pace car, and then take the green flag at full speed.

This procedure is primarily the responsibility of whoever is first in line behind the

pace car, and that person will absolutely be penalized if this procedure is not followed

correctly.

[dew-e]

Thanks for providing there here Jon. Having it spelled out and clear was the main point I was trying to make, which that does. Those supps. all make sense to me.

[Varkwso]

When I first started NASA TT we gridded haphazardly with DE4 and sometimes DE3. No warm ups. No gridding by time, passengers allowed and a gentlemans code on classing. Chris, ken and then I worked on making it better in our region.

 

Lessons learned, from nationals and other regions, have been applied and we have a well sorted system that works for us in the SE. Following simple directions is sometimes tough. It is especially tough for some crossovers. Fully 80% of my grids are repeats and know how it works. Makes it easy.

[EVOlutionary]

Back to the original question - Why would someone choose to stay in TT and not plan to "progress" to W2W?

 

Answer - it depends on the individual.

 

What I mean by this is - different people view TT and W2W in different ways and some folk just think one is more fun than the other. Some view TT just as a fun thing to do on the weekends with minimal risk of damage. Some view it as the ultimate test of man and machine - attempting to reach perfection. Someone earlier said basically that TT is pushing your car and driving skill to 100% to find the absolute limit, whereas W2W is using your car and driving skill to get around the car in front of you. Some people think one of those is more fun than the other, and it depends on the individual which one of those gives you the most satisfaction.

 

For me personally - I get the most satisfaction out of knowing that I had the fastest car at a given track on a given day. Or the fastest car on a given track EVER. That's just me - that's what I like. Maybe that will change over time and I'll seek out a new challenge in W2W, but I don't think so.

 

TT is not a stepping stone to racing for all people. Racing is not "better" than TT in all minds.

 

I agree with this. For me - Time Trials/Time Attack is the basis, the very essence of motorsports. The goal is to build the fastest possible car and drive the fastest possible lap around a track within the given rule structure. The quest for the PERFECT LAP - perfection. Then someone came along and said "Hey, I bet my car can do 20 laps faster than yours". Then 100 laps. Then 24 hours . . .

[hagakure]

I started this thread some tme ago, and now after just 6 races, the answer is clear to me....W2W most definitely. Time trial is a challnege, but in my opinion a more limited one. The sensory overload of racing, the aggression, the mind-games...it's just too much fun. I hope I don't wreck the car, but it's well worth the thrills.....

[speedengineer]

I agree w2w is a blast. Kinda like when I got bored with HPDE I looked for a new challenge in TT and it was fun! W2W is the 'new' fun after I got bored with TT, though I still enjoy TT very much.

 

Without reading the entire thread again, I think what the argument morphed into was whether or not it was better to go straight from HPDE into w2w or to run TT first. I don't know about you, but I wouldn't trade my experience in TT for anything. I think it helped make me do better in racing. I think it would have been very challenging to be competitive in w2w without the skills I learned while running the TT program.

[ILIKETODRIVE]

Without reading the entire thread again, I think what the argument morphed into was whether or not it was better to go straight from HPDE into w2w or to run TT first. I don't know about you, but I wouldn't trade my experience in TT for anything. I think it helped make me do better in racing. I think it would have been very challenging to be competitive in w2w without the skills I learned while running the TT program.

x2

 

I can save tires/gas/brakes/etc because I only need 3-4 laps total (including out/in laps) in a Qualy session to get the lap time I want.