bossman429 Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 So in 2000 you could get a Ford Mustang GT without a spoiler (spoiler was an option). Mine came with a spoiler though. If I remove it is it points? I will not be modifying the wing or replacing it with anything "Add, replace, or modify rear wing and/or spoiler +4 (a rear wing or spoiler may not exceed a height of eight ( inches above the roofline (or OEM windshield height for convertibles), or a width greater than the width of the car body. (note: additional points must be assessed for end plates that are greater than twelve inches in height---G. below)" Above doesn't mention "removing one", but even if it did, since my car could have came from the factory without one would it make a difference? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbrew8991 Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 The question is - if you ordered that car and selected no options how would it be delivered? Case A = If its without a spolier and the option adds a spolier - then running without the spoiler is points free and running with the optional spoiler is points. Case B = If it's with a spoiler and the option (if it exists) was to remove the spoiler - then running the spoiler is points free and removing it costs points. Removing a BTM spoiler is one way to modify it. Could be points, depends on which case above. Adding an OEM but not BTM spoiler is adding a rear wing/spoiler of course. Could be points, depends on which case above. Of course if you are taking points for anything then it's wise to evaluate the part vs the gain it provides. You may want to go with a better part to make it worth the points you're charged, or, you may want to put something else on that won't get you charged anything. Of the cars I've driven in NASA-TT competition about half fell under Case B above (MR2, RX8 R3), the others under Case A (FC RX7, Miata). I can think of many popular cars that are Case A though, and it's a common item that most people miss on their classing sheets... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bossman429 Posted February 28, 2012 Author Share Posted February 28, 2012 The question is - if you ordered that car and selected no options how would it be delivered? Case A = If its without a spolier and the option adds a spolier - then running without the spoiler is points free and running with the optional spoiler is points. Case B = If it's with a spoiler and the option (if it exists) was to remove the spoiler - then running the spoiler is points free and removing it costs points. Removing a BTM spoiler is one way to modify it. Could be points, depends on which case above. Adding an OEM but not BTM spoiler is adding a rear wing/spoiler of course. Could be points, depends on which case above. Of course if you are taking points for anything then it's wise to evaluate the part vs the gain it provides. You may want to go with a better part to make it worth the points you're charged, or, you may want to put something else on that won't get you charged anything. Of the cars I've driven in NASA-TT competition about half fell under Case B above (MR2, RX8 R3), the others under Case A (FC RX7, Miata). I can think of many popular cars that are Case A though, and it's a common item that most people miss on their classing sheets... I see what your saying, and I'm unsure which case it was. I could easily just swap a trunklid and no one would of known, but I'm wanting to not do that lol. I have the spoiler still and can easily put it back on, its certainly not worth the 2 points. It certainly isn't an Aero improvement either way. I did it for the 5lbs I'll save which is accounted for elswhere. I'm hoping the powers at be will chime in and say its fine.... just so i can finish off this classification form and send it in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
obzezzed350 Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 If it was an option, which I am not sure, then removing it will be no points. Leaving it on would incur points. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
National Staff Greg G. Posted February 28, 2012 National Staff Share Posted February 28, 2012 The rear spoiler is a standard feature on the '00 Mustang GT. Removing it would incur a +4 point assessment. Let's not try and argue that if I remove 50% of the wing, or 99% of the wing it is modifying it, but if I remove 100% of the wing, I am not "modifying" it--won't fly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bossman429 Posted February 28, 2012 Author Share Posted February 28, 2012 Haha we really need to update the wording in the Aero section then, if removing = modifying In other sections it specifically calls out "deleting" but in aero it does not. I'm asking but I'm sure others will just assume deleting is ok, and then they might really be pissed if it DQ's them down the road. Thanks for your help greg, I'm going to see what documents I can get to show how the spoilers were offered/not offered on that year mustang Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbrew8991 Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 Well if you don't use the removing = modifying thought process (which is silly to me what else would it be?), then the clause that essentially says "if its not listed as a points mod or free mod you can't do it" kicks in. I think that might turn you into more of a fan of "removing = modifying". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bossman429 Posted February 28, 2012 Author Share Posted February 28, 2012 I dont see the relationship, looks like those thought processes are apples to organges. regardless I'm fine with the removing = modifying, but it should just be consitenantly worded throughout the rules thats all Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlfpkrcn1 Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 If you are going to take points for removing it, you may as well bolt a proper wing on that does something for the points you are going to take. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bossman429 Posted February 29, 2012 Author Share Posted February 29, 2012 If I have to take points (which its looking like), i'll put it back on and NOT take the points. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vpnwiz Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 Well if you don't use the removing = modifying thought process (which is silly to me what else would it be?), then the clause that essentially says "if its not listed as a points mod or free mod you can't do it" kicks in. I think that might turn you into more of a fan of "removing = modifying". Well, removing and modifying are two completely different things though. I can see why the OP thinks these should be separate. re·move/riˈmo͞ov/ Verb: Take away (something unwanted or unnecessary) from the position it occupies. mod·i·fy/ˈmädəˌfī/ Verb: Make partial or minor changes to (something), typically so as to improve it or to make it less extreme. Probly makes sense to add "remove" to the rules if that was part of the intent. I think as Ken states the catch-all clause would (should) kick in to address taking it off, if it was base classed with a spoiler. Sucks for the OP, if you take off a crappy non-functional spoiler you get dinged 4 points, but if you change it to make it actually work well you also get dinged 4 points... although they might not be a bad 4 points to spend if you make enough power to need a real wing on the back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurboShortBus Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 Has it really come to this? The wing was modified by removing the attaching hardware and pulling it from the car. There. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlfpkrcn1 Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 : Removing the attaching hardware is free for weight reduction. The wing just happened to fall off after a free mod Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
speedengineer Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 Has it really come to this? How appropriate! Nearly fits with yesterdays XKCD http://www.xkcd.com/1022/ But yes, by removing the wing, the car was modified from its oem base form. Key point being that it would then be different than the base/stock form in which it was classed, thus incurring points. The technicality of 'modify' vs 'remove' doesn't matter, since in each case it would differ from stock form. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ILIKETODRIVE Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 Removing the attaching hardware is free for weight reduction. The wing just happened to fall off after a free mod I like this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbrew8991 Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 ahhh Rules Lawyers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevor57 Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 didn't we already go through that? When swaybar attachments "broke." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ninetyfourintegra Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 Well, removing and modifying are two completely different things though. I can see why the OP thinks these should be separate. re·move/riˈmo͞ov/ Verb: Take away (something unwanted or unnecessary) from the position it occupies. mod·i·fy/ˈmädəˌfī/ Verb: Make partial or minor changes to (something), typically so as to improve it or to make it less extreme. Probly makes sense to add "remove" to the rules if that was part of the intent. I think as Ken states the catch-all clause would (should) kick in to address taking it off, if it was base classed with a spoiler. Sucks for the OP, if you take off a crappy non-functional spoiler you get dinged 4 points, but if you change it to make it actually work well you also get dinged 4 points... although they might not be a bad 4 points to spend if you make enough power to need a real wing on the back. Speaking of which, you took the points, right? I thought your car originally had the lip spoiler do-dad... I'm actually waiting for mine to "rust off" while on track at some point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
National Staff Greg G. Posted February 29, 2012 National Staff Share Posted February 29, 2012 The intent of the rules and safety considerations will be the overriding factors in making such decisions, as opposed to a constrained interpretation of the rules based on phraseology or verbiage. The rules shall be applied in a logical manner that seeks to provide competitors a safe and fair venue for competition. Removing any BTM aero component is an aero modification to the vehicle. It is either covered under the rules, or it is not permitted because it is not stated. Try this: I can "modify" the wing by removing the endplates (say 10% of the wing), and then modify it further by cutting the chord width down by 50% more, and then modify it further by decreasing the span to just 1 foot, and be left with only 90% of what I started with, then take it and remount it on the other side of the rear deck lid so it sits inside the trunk. But, If take the entire thing off the rear decklid, and instead of having it mounted upside down inside the trunk, I have it mounted on my work bench in the garage, that is "removing" it, and not modifying it or the BTM vehicle. Retarded! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlfpkrcn1 Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 But, If I take the entire thing off the rear decklid, and mount it upside down inside the trunk! Now you are thinking like a racer Greg! ( I helped you out there...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vpnwiz Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 Well, removing and modifying are two completely different things though. I can see why the OP thinks these should be separate. re·move/riˈmo͞ov/ Verb: Take away (something unwanted or unnecessary) from the position it occupies. mod·i·fy/ˈmädəˌfī/ Verb: Make partial or minor changes to (something), typically so as to improve it or to make it less extreme. Probly makes sense to add "remove" to the rules if that was part of the intent. I think as Ken states the catch-all clause would (should) kick in to address taking it off, if it was base classed with a spoiler. Sucks for the OP, if you take off a crappy non-functional spoiler you get dinged 4 points, but if you change it to make it actually work well you also get dinged 4 points... although they might not be a bad 4 points to spend if you make enough power to need a real wing on the back. Speaking of which, you took the points, right? I thought your car originally had the lip spoiler do-dad... I'm actually waiting for mine to "rust off" while on track at some point. I was just trying to add another 5 pages to the thread Old Miata's didn't come with wings. I took it off so I wouldn't have to *take* the points. There was one special edition that did but I don't think it has a separate classing. Doesn't matter for me though. I recall trying to tell Greg that it was useless and therefore I shouldn't have to take points for it, oh, about 4 years ago... we see how that turned out Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bossman429 Posted February 29, 2012 Author Share Posted February 29, 2012 o god what did i start the spoiler is going back on lol! Just add "remove/delete" to next years rule book for me will ya! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbrew8991 Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 welcome to NASAforums In all seriousness it is interesting to have these kinds of discussions - they do end up helping shape the rules & series for the better - alot of great ideas do spring forth here & there. Just don't take it personally Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ninetyfourintegra Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 Old Miata's didn't come with wings. I took it off so I wouldn't have to *take* the points. There was one special edition that did but I don't think it has a separate classing. Doesn't matter for me though. I recall trying to tell Greg that it was useless and therefore I shouldn't have to take points for it, oh, about 4 years ago... we see how that turned out That was it, I knew there were points somewhere. And you have points available if you went back to the OEM nose too right? I might protest you anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vpnwiz Posted March 1, 2012 Share Posted March 1, 2012 Old Miata's didn't come with wings. I took it off so I wouldn't have to *take* the points. There was one special edition that did but I don't think it has a separate classing. Doesn't matter for me though. I recall trying to tell Greg that it was useless and therefore I shouldn't have to take points for it, oh, about 4 years ago... we see how that turned out That was it, I knew there were points somewhere. And you have points available if you went back to the OEM nose too right? I might protest you anyway. Good strategy. But you should wait until I actually finish a race that matters... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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