Super Touring Rules changes

[Greg G.]

So, we would have either gotten complaints from the GT2 type cars that they had too big a Mod Factor if it was -1.7, or we would have had complaints from everyone that the stock cars are killing their Production Touring series. So, we have kept them apart. As both series develop, there is always the chance that when we have our own data based on cars prepped for both series, that we may be able to combine them again somehow, but I don't see that happening anytime in the near future.

 

I realize that my perspective is coming through lenses blurred by my car (a Panoz) being pulled out of ST2, but if the argument is that tube frame 'stock cars' are killing the 'production' class, then why are some of the tube frame cars allowed to remain? Because they are not competitive? What happens when someone shows up with a now legal yet fully developed tube frame car (FFR, Stalker) and wins - does it get punted out of the class too?

 

I'll run STR2, in a small class until it stops being fun or gap up to ST1 and get my shorts handed to me until that stops being fun. Most people are here for the competition, not for the trophy. Continued class dilution is not going to be a key component of NASA's continued success. Breaking into more classes and 'waiting on the series to develop' is not a good strategy. I'm not saying that everything is about the contingency programs, but it may have been better received when Hoosier was paying tires with only three cars in class. Look at what is going on at Road Atlanta - the 'ST2 group' is trying to find enough folks to fill out the Hoosier contingency requirement. When a PTA car/driver is leading the charge to gap up 1 or 2 classes to build a field big enough to qualify for contingencies - you have a dilution problem.

 

Tal

Tal, did you miss this in the 1-1-12 version of theST Rules?

Note: It is anticipated that the remaining tube-frame vehicles on this list will be deleted in the

2013 ST Rules, leaving the tube-frame vehicles to compete in STR and SU.

[Greg G.]

Don't fix it if it ain't broke.

 

Last year we had good competition in ST2. I run a stock C5 T1 car and was able to win here and there regionally. There were a few other cars prepped like mine, and we had a good time.

 

My car does not come close to be able to compete with a full out ST2 build -1:35 at Road Atlanta compared to 1:28. Now, a few people are excluded because they have brake cooling in the frame or exhaust going through the frame, the least of my worries. I know the full out guys spent 100k+ compared to my 25+ and the now illegal mods had no influence in the huge lap time discrepancy.

 

These new rules alienate some good competitors for no reason, for example the Panoz is no longer allowed. Panoz was not competitive anyway, but found some guys to race with and the drivers had fun. Now they are kicked out.

 

None of the competitors cared, only the people making the rules. The result will now be lower car counts and people selling their cars. That coupled with the changes in the hoosier contingency could be a big blow to the ST racing with Nasa.

 

Tim

 

Tim, sorry, but that is a short-sighted argument. As long as the production cars are beating the underdeveloped (and/or underdriven) tube-frame cars some will be content. But, as soon as those tube-frames start beating the production cars, the complaints start coming. I don't know what to tell you guys that do not know the performance advantage that can be obtained from a tube-frame purpose built race car versus a production car.

 

In order to get brake ducts into the frame, you need to cut large holes in the frame. In order to run the exhaust through down the frame rails, you need to cut large channels and holes in the frame rails. Since we drew the line on this series from the start that the OEM frame rails needed to be retained, just where exactly should we say that's too much? What about channeling out the frame rails, and running tube-framing inside the OEM frame rail shells, until you connect the tubes to the new tube suspension mounting points? What about those that followed the rules and did not put their exhaust into the frame rails and gain the benefit of lower ride height than is possible on the production vehicle? Do they need to start weakening their frames as well in order to get the competitive advantage? These rules were basic, and some attempted to take advantage. Many others sent e-mails and asked if these things were legal over the years, and we told them no. So, now that we have to deal with it, is it possible that maybe the competitors that didn't have these mods, but knew about their friends that made these mods, could have helped to avoid doing this now by doing it a year or two ago? But, instead, they took the casual attitude that has led to the death of many series where the competitors and officials looked the other way for mods that they knew were not legal. These mods come in a progression. What was the next step, notching frame rails to clearance larger tires, wheels, different suspension arms, etc. that could have never been used on the OEM vehicle? There is a slippery slope that absolutely continues to get steeper and steeper if the goal of the series is to not to get anyone upset and just let them do whatever they want as long as they have enough drivers for one or two guys to win $400 tires (after they just spent $100,000 on mods as you stated). So, while I'm the messenger of all of this, the guys with many more years of experience writing rules and watching the birth and death of many more series than you or I have seen, do not want these mods permitted in this series. And, no more slippery slope for the series to crash down. Yes, maybe some rocks in the road, but as far as we know, there are tens of thousands of potential vehicles out there that do not have these mods, sitting in garages across the country, with just a handful that have them. And, it is not like these mods cannot be reversed. So, if one spent $100K on the car mods, including those that were never legal, and it costs $300 to $3000 depending on whether you do your own work to make the car legal for the class you built it for, I personally don't see the problem. I do understand that those guys that bought their cars with these mods are is a slightly different position. But, on the other side of the coin, if I buy a car in Mexico and attempt to drive it across the border, and at Customs, they find 100 lbs of Marijuana in the frame rails, who gets the penalty and goes to jail?

[Greg G.]

I was able to open up the dialogue regarding the rocker panels and side exit exhausts again with NASA. I argued that those that were taking the -0.4 Mod Factor for floor pan modification for exhaust clearance only should be permitted to have that exhaust exit the vehicle via the rocker panel or the door without an additional Mod Factor, and without being illegal, as that was the known intent when this Mod Factor was initially written into the rules. The position was excepted, and additionally, it was determined that if some were able to have side exit exhaust with this Mod Factor and going through the floor pan, then others should be able to have the same modification through the rocker panel if the floor pan is not encroached. (remember, vehicles are different, and rocker panel placement in relation to the floor varies). However, the frame rules stay, as written. So, if the exhaust went through a frame rail to get to the rocker panel, it is still illegal. But, for those with side exhausts that exit the rocker panel with or without floor pan modification for exhaust clearance, but do not modify the frame rail, it will be legal with a -0.4 Modification Assessment. Or, the car can just be modified back to an OEM configuration by closing up the holes, and rerouting the exhaust without going through the floor, rocker panels (and especially through the frame).

[TWI]

Tal, did you miss this in the 1-1-12 version of theST Rules?

Note: It is anticipated that the remaining tube-frame vehicles on this list will be deleted in the

2013 ST Rules, leaving the tube-frame vehicles to compete in STR and SU.

 

Yes, I did miss that. I was comparing the 2010, 2011 and 2012 rules and looked right over that sentence.

 

BTW Greg - my comments were not personal to you but more directed towards the NASA 'executive' level. Having been the steward, though not the owner, of programs with multiple constituents I recognize the challenge. It is much easier to be the benevolent dictator than to be in a role where everyone assumes you are the ambivalent dictator.

 

Tal

[Cobra4B]

FWIW there is no way to do a side exhaust on a C5/C6 without cutting through the tunnel, putting in a false passenger side floor, and cutting the frame rail. There is no "under" the car on these things. The exhaust is up in the center tunnel so making it side exit doesn't allow any benefit (i.e. the lower ride height as you mentioned) other than having less overall exhaust pipe and keeping heat away from the transmission/differential in the rear of the car.

[Greg G.]

Brian, so cutting the frame rail would be the part that would make it illegal. Going through the tunnel (which is essentially considered part of the floor) would fall under the -0.4 Mod Factor for exhaust clearance. So, it sounds like unfortunately, the only way to make a car legal that has this modification that cuts through the frame would be to cut the exhaust and re-route it, and then metal plate and weld the frame back to OEM, and metal plate the holes in the tunnel and floor. We had a few BMW's in PT that had to do this last year and the prior year. At least one that I know of did the work himself, and the material cost less than $150.

[brkntrxn]

For all of that hassle just to get heat away from the tranny, a tranny cooler is easier and legal.

 

 

-Kevin

[Shawn M.]

But, on the other side of the coin, if I buy a car in Mexico and attempt to drive it across the border, and at Customs, they find 100 lbs of Marijuana in the frame rails, who gets the penalty and goes to jail?

 

 

Ken Brewer??

[wlfpkrcn1]

[John B]

John, sorry that these changes have effected your car. Can you please send me a copy of the WCGT rule page that mandated your exhaust modifications? I looked at the more recent rules a while ago and could not find it. Also, I'm assuming that your exhaust either goes through the frame rail, or floor pan or both to get to the rocker panel, is that correct? There was some talk about a grandfather clause at one point, but it was shot down because the drivers who didn't get to do the same thing would just complain. But, if you can get me the actual documentation, I think that we might be able to open the subject again.

 

As far as the inner fender well addition, it was essentially there already for most cars by the combination of the requirement to retain the OEM strut tower and floor pan. As well, while not everyone comes on the forums, we have discussed this issue, and it was clearly stated that it was not permitted to tub the fender wells to make more room inboard for larger wheels and tires. The unmodified rocker was another item added by the NASA Executives, along with the roof line Mod Factor. I agree that some of these things were never my intention when I developed the ST Series, came up with the formula, and wrote the Rules. However, we didn't have the STR series then either. I think that the NASA Exec's cannot believe how many of the ST cars were purposely built (unlike yours) ignoring the basic rules, and now they are drawing a line that they believe will be better for the series over the long run. Yes, I've heard that we need it to survive the short run first, but it was not my decision. However, I can see their side as well.

 

_________________

Greg Greenbaum

National TT, PT, & ST Director

Nat. Medical Director

 

 

Greg

I appreciate the fact that you understand my situation & that I built this to WCGT specs. I wasn't going to dig for the side exhaust bulletin/rule because I have WC spec roof & rockers & my inner fenders have holes. I also have 2 in brake duct holes. I had a few people request I follow through with this. I was hoping when I went to Nasa ST1 other WC GT cars would show up as they became ineligible for WC. There are a lot of cars out there built the same as mine just sitting around. I realize this is Nasa & not SCCA. I will either race STR1 with myself until someone shows up or not race Nasa. I hope some of this may lead to a place at Nasa for WC cars. I had an old PC hardrive stripped & found 04 PRR part of the 06 PRR & 06 VTS. In summary I couldn't find the bulletin forcing me to do the side exhaust. I did not want to do an ellaborate hack like that for no performance gain. Corvettes have no issue getting to low. I did find where it was allowed in 2004. It was later mandated with the factory fuel tanks inside the frame. I have e-mailed several @ SCCA pro requesting the info.

From 2004 2.9.2.16: The floor pan may be modified to provide clearance for the exhaust system

routing.

2.9.3: Engine

2.9.3.17: The exhaust system may be modified, or replaced. Outlets must be located

67 2005 PRR

rearward of the midpoint of the wheelbase. The exhaust pipe may not protrude more

than 76.2mm (3”) at the point where it exits the bodywork. If the exhaust pipe(s) exit

the bodywork at the widest part of the body such that any extension of the exhaust

pipe(s) beyond the body would make pipe(s) the widest point, the exhaust pipe(s) must

be trimmed flush (+/- 0.5”) with the bodywork at the point that they exit the body. Any

body modification to accommodate exhaust system routing must be approved by the

TECHNICALADMINISTRATOR. The underbody rocker panels may be modified for the

installation of the exhaust system, but these modifications may only serve to provide

clearance for the exhaust system. The exhaust system must be adequately isolated

from the driver’s compartment. If the exhaust system is routed in such a way that

damage to it could cause hot exhaust to contact any part of the fuel system, there shall

be a metallic heat shield protecting the fuel system components. This heat shield shall

be located at least 76.2mm (3”) away from the exhaust system, and there shall be at

least 76.2mm (3”) between the heat shield and the fuel system components.

2.9.3.18: Every car shall have two (2) consecutive bolts on each valve cover and on the

 

2.9.5: Fluid Piping & Fuel Tank

2.9.5.1: Fuel Cells/Tanks

2005 PRR 68

The use of a fuel cell is required, unless the stock fuel tank is located between the axle

centerlines, and within the main chassis structure (i.e. frame rails, etc.). Additional

straps and/or protection may be required. All fuel cells MUST comply with Appendix L.

Proper bracing to protect the fuel cell in the event of a rear-end crash is required. If a

fuel cell is installed in the rear hatch/rear trunk area, the OEM floorpan in that area may

be replaced with metal in order to make it easier to mount the fuel cell and close out

the area around the fuel cell.

 

2006 VTS 5.B. CHASSIS MISCELLANEOUS:

When using ACP Composite Roof/A-pillar assembly with Lexan windshield, the OEM aluminum windshield

mounting frame may be removed.

6.D. BODY MISCELLANEOUS:

Advanced Composite Products: 2” ”Laguna” splitter (p/n:C5/A0003 CF2, or FG2) may be used. B-pillar

extension (LH)(p/n:ACP-BPE001), B-pillar extension (RH)(p/n:ACP-BPE002), flared rear fenders

(p/n:ACP-C5/A0009 & 10), GM body kit (p/n:C5/A0046PKG)(includes R-fascia, doors, hood, deck lid, roof,

¼ panels), Z06 aero skirts (p/n:C5/A0006#7FG), vented hood (p/n: C5/A0050CF), single-piece rear fascia

(p/n: C5/A0039-CF) may be used.

Front splitter (p/n: TR1001) may be used. Contact Tom Oates Chevrolet for ordering info.

An air duct(s) may be installed in the front license plate area.

[Greg G.]

John,

 

Brian mentioned that there is no way to do a side exit on a Corvette without going through the frame rail, but I don't see any mention of going through a frame rail in the rules you posted.

 

As far as the exhaust through the rocker panel, we have updated that rule now--see the Tech. Bulletin in these Forums (-0.4 Mod to go with the floor pan mod for exhaust). But, one still cannot go through the frame rails to do the mod.

 

Inner fender well retention is basically a concern for "tubbing". Holes can be filled/covered with sheet metal and remain compliant. If the roof line is modified, it will take the -0.4 Mod Factor, but it is not illegal in ST. So, perhaps for your car in ST, the biggest concern is going through the frame rails with the exhaust. As far as other older WCGT cars, I believe that most of them would be compliant with the ST Rules, but perhaps there are mods on other model WCGT cars that we are not aware of. I suppose it depends on which version of the WCGT rules the car was built for.

[John B]

SCCA didn't say go through frame ever. They did mandate exiting exhaust before the fuel tanks & the frame was the only way to do it. If I fill or cover all frame & inner fender holes it will be ST compliant? It would still be modified from original tunnel,floor & frame. The roof is a composite replacement. Same size & location as stock. Is that illegal? The rockers are aero style. Like all the body kits out there. They are not original so that makes them not legal correct? I would hate to take the car apart & fill holes & still not comply.

[Cobra4B]

I don't see why aftermarket rockers for aero would be illegal? Wouldn't that fall under aero mods? As for the roof line so long as it's the same shape as OEM I'd think it's fine. Curious to hear what Greg has to say.

[clubracer6]

The roof is a composite replacement. Same size & location as stock. Is that illegal?

the roof is legal.

[TexaST-1]

Greg,

 

So if one was to completely remove the entire roof and front windshield that would make the car illegal for ST and move it to STR. Correct?

 

In most other circumstances if the offending frame penetrations are covered, repaired or otherwise rendered unusable they could stay in ST? That is what I am gathering from this thread.

[Cobra4B]

Good question... it says roofline. Most of the full-on race cars just cut the OEM windshield frame and b-pillar out and use the cage as the new roof and cover it all up with an ACP roof that mimics the stock appearance.

[Varkwso]

Get busy for a couple weeks and all kind of stuff starts flying. The rule clarification was needed. And I think 20 racers would have at least 40 different opinions.