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JSG1901

How to attact more drivers into GTS...?

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JSG1901

Greetings,

 

I'm posting this as an open question to the group. A part of my mandate is to help grow GTS across the US. There are some areas where GTS it strong, with large fields and lots of enthusiasm. There are other regions where there are few, if any, GTS cars.

 

So, my question is, what can/should/might be done to help build GTS everywhere, including both the haves and the have-nots?

 

Ideas...?

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shiza40

As a GTS driver in the lightly attended Southeast region, I'm up for anything we can do to attract new blood into the series. My first suggestion would be to make sure the series and our races are advertised or otherwise talked about more often on German marque message boards and forums. We need to make sure the owners of German track cars know that GTS is out there and that it is their easiest path to racing their car as it sits.

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Cobra4B

Ask the MA guys what they've done... GTS seems to be one of the most popular classes in our area. I think on of the draws of a GTS3/4 car is that they can cross-over into ST2 if needed.

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Bryancohnracing

Several ideas:

 

Incorporate other German car classes into the GTS fold as steps in the ladder.

944 spec, SE30, Spec 3 and Spec Boxster should be part of GTS. Throw all your preconceived notions out the window. Who says all GTS classes have to have open rules as they do now?

 

Convert GTS1 to a NON aero, standard gearbox class. Place some restrictions on the open rule nature of GTS1 to control costs. As we saw in NASA GL, GTS1 went nuts with development, the class grew and then collapsed. One reason I believe for this is that the cost was little different to go "slow" in GTS1 vs going "faster" in GTS3 (as an example).

 

Finally, include more cars. This is the EASIEST way to grow any class. I know, I've ranted before on this and the question has been raised and shot down many times. You want more participation open the door to more cars. There are plenty of cool factory racers (as one example) trickling down, they just aren't coming to NASA. Its the equivalent in some ways of SCCA pro series cars not being eligible for SCCA Club Racing. They've largely fixed this problem. Other NASA classes benefit from pro racing trickle down (AI, GTS in its current form, Honda Challenge, SM, ST). GTS is the perfect class concept to take in seriously cool and interesting cars .

 

You can say, "They fit into ST" but many do not in a competitive format the way they would into GTS. Hell create a ETS (European Touring Series) within the GTS banner so they do not compete against the German cars. Its about inclusion, not exclusion. Start with one ETS class and see who salutes the flag. I bet in 2 years you'll be surprised at the positive response.

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Fred Crawford

I,m sorry I thought the question was " how do we generate more participation in GTS ( as we know it), not creating a whole new series. How about National letting a little money trickle down to local Directors for promotions of the series. I know in the SE we raise all our own funds for parties and trophys ect.

 

Fc

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cwbaader

Make all GTS classes true HP/WT classes and get rid of the second torque factor. This should only apply to naturally aspirated cars. Chuck

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clubracer6

I’ve been lurking around the GTS forum and for sale ads for these cars. Primarily, because I would like to have a car that I can run enduro’s in and also because I have been wondering if it would be cheaper to run a GTS3 car than my ST2 Corvette costs. The GTS3 car counts are pretty healthy up here in the Midwest.

 

I guess what I don’t get, is why the GTS thing in the first place? What not get NASA to get ST3 going and ST4 if needed or maybe that’s a PT class and not limit to running against just German cars or even just European cars as just suggested. I think St3 would also help get some more SCCA folks over to NASA. If you think about the hay day of World Challenge or Grand Am today, how cool was it and is it to see 911’s battling, Corvettes, M3’s, A4’s, Vipers, STi’s, Evo’s etc… I am a fan of Spec Series, but it seems like maybe we have too many and this is not the economy to be doing it in. It seems like all of us want the same thing and that is to race and have lots of cars to race with. I had a blast running Spec Miata for many many years, but missed the speed and couldn’t go back to that now, but I do miss always having someone to race with.

 

And for the record – I get the passion for German cars – I have one (e39M5) and have had many of all kinds in the past. So not at all trying to say anything negative about German cars or why there is a desire to have a class the focuses on them – again just wondering if this a time to think outside the class a bit.

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Eric W.

Promoting on the various car forums go a long way. Plus strategic trash talking works too

 

We also have a nice contingency program that started in MidAtlantic w/ Bimmerworld. Maybe the Porsche guys could come up with something with one of their main vendors?

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D_Eclipse9916
Plus strategic trash talking works too

 

That's how he mostly got me and I know at least one or two others

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KaiB

The reconsiderations of the 13/13 have probably hurt participation.

 

For whatever reasons, I personaly know a few guys who have left regions to go to others where 13/13 is taken somewhat more seriously. I also know a few who are backing off of NASA participation for more PCA events just because of this issue.

Edited by Guest

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Winefool

Might help to remind the folks back at NASA National that GTS is still around too! I couldn't believe how much communication and PR occurred around Nationals in September that just simply ignored GTS - the biggest single run group by far with, arguably, the most fan appeal for the cars.

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gofastzach

Maybe a cash race or two....I happen to know a guy who has a 53' race transporter that has plenty of room for advertising. works mostly in the MW/GL region....just saying.

 

Also, maybe steal some people from PCA and BMWCCA? Hearing Brian’s thoughts on this got me thinking...while I strongly disagree with the whole "ETS" idea, I like the idea of a few restrictions on the lower classes. the way i see it, it will have two major benefits. ONE: having to buy less stuff I.E. wings and gears will keep the initial cost down, thus attracting more entry level players. TWO: the pervious will slow down the "slower" classes, and will eliminate the pointy end of one class running into the slow end of the next faster class. just like how the fastest ST car will never be as fast as the slowest GS. now there will always be an anomaly and a gts1 will pass a gts2 but as racers i think we all know and love those "grey areas" that make our sport interesting to say the least.

 

To sum up, more advertising so people get excited about the series, and more incentives to race in GTS, like a cash race or set of tires…just something to think about for now. I wasn’t sure if I was running GTS this year, so that’s why I never spoke up about the whole “ETS”/GTS1/2 rule mods. That being said I can recall the first “GTS” race at Gingerman back in 05, the only rule was PW/WT. maybe its time to really re-write the rules?

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JSG1901

This is a great conversation, guys. I'm staying silent (so somebody else can be heard for a change) but reading with enthusiasm. Keep it coming!

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cwbaader

GTS is a money class...always has been. As people assimilated the rules, they began to realize they could build killer motors and ballast to a class. That is great, but they then discovered was that consumables increased exponentially, and they had a built car with basically no where else to run. Those with the most money ran up front. I think that is one of the reason why you want suggestions as to how to improve subscription.

 

Having a car that can run with more than one organization without modification has always been important to me, and quite a few people I know. NASA has forced racers to choose..NASA or everyone else...did not like that then, and still don't. So I voted with my check book and choose to let my NASA license lapse.

 

Every form of car racing that had no budget has run its course save F1. It's just what they do...they get spent to death! How to fix it...I don't know since the dollar Gennie is out of the bottle. A good start might be to get rid of the 2 X torque requirement for NA motors. Chuck

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JSG1901
A good start might be to get rid of the 2 X torque requirement for NA motors.

I've got to give you credit, Chuck, you are amazingly consistent, year-in and year-out, on your dislike of using torque in the calculation. Are you still running that diesel Rabbit torque monster?

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UKRBMW

I admire GTS class for staying consistent - no rule creep and just small adjustments here and there.

 

Running an older car like mine you're bound to beg a little for some concessions here and there, but that is a slippery slope as you're start asking for more and more. Ultimately Chuck is right - this is a money class (nothing wrong with that). TQ waiver would be nice, especially now with a lot of cars detuning instead of going up in power.

 

I agree with others, stick with the rules and the intent of the series. We just need more exposure - write up in GRM, some highlight videos we can showcase. Do a BBQ or get together with HPDE1,2,3 students that drive German cars so they can talk and ask questions. Need to drive awareness. Given current economic conditions it seems we are weathering the storm better than some other classes - SM, ST, and even Spec E30 numbers dropped off locally, some pretty dramatically.

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cwbaader

Nope...325e BMW..but that is not the only thing I said, CB

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vwmann1

GTS was not always a money class. My first GTS race was an e30 325, 8v 944, 3.2 carrera, and an e36 m3. We need to turn on the way back machine and go back to see what Mark and Denny were trying to develop in the first place, so we know how to move forward. The original intent for GTS was to give guys who ran in PCA and BMWCCA club racing another place to race their cars. Our car was an f-stock PCA 3.2 Carrera when Mark Barr approached us at a PCA race. We had all the same concerns that you have now. Was the 13/13 rule going to be used and enforced? How were they going to balance the classes. Pure HP/wt worked back then because you had the rules of the other groups limiting what could be done to the car. Tires were limited to what came on the car or one inch bigger, stock sized brakes, and no aero was allowed. All the stuff that has driven the costs to the moon.

 

So, how to make things better. First, we need to use and enforce the 13/13 rule. It works. I have seen it work. There is a full paddock of race cars that show up to every PCA race. These are all potential customers. But, they will not step foot into our sandbox if they think there is a chance that their cars will be smashed into with no real repercussions. That is a real concern for these guys. They do not drive race cars they drive Porsche's and they care about how the car looks and is cared for. There is a fair amount a cheating that goes unchecked in PCA and there are drivers that don't like it and would go somewhere else if they knew they did not have to be so worried that it would be a smash fest. Those concerns are real. Look at what we did at Nationals last year. A lot of very expensive cars were wrecked because there are no repercussions for stupidity and bravado. It felt more like a Grand Am race to me than a NASA race. Now I know this is going to be hard to do since we all race with classes that do not believe in the 13/13 rule. So, what are you going to do when you get caught in someone's out of class brain fart and they damage your car. The only way to get this done is to have all of the NASA classes adhere to the 13/13 rule. Hard thing to get to happen as I see it. It absolutely blows my mind when I see the group of people standing around filling out forms at the end of a race and there is no repercussions for the damage. I'll get off my soap box now.

 

I like the idea that GTS 1&2 to have a no aero. I would add stock tire size or one inch larger. Lower the entry bar some. Sort of back to the old days.

 

Now I understand I am getting into some esoteric stuff here, but NASA is the "land of misfit toys". The vast majority of classes are either wrapped around how do we build a race car for the least amount of money possible or I have built a car that does not fit into any class and I want somewhere to race it. In some ways GTS now fits into the latter of those two. I know that I have made a conscious effort to build Zach's car specifically so it can fit in other classes with other groups. Our GTS 2 944 will also be able to run with PCA in SP3. Now SP3 is a small class in PCA, but it is something. We need to look at ways to turn that thought process around and be able to bring in cars from other groups, PCA, SCCA, and BMWCCA. Go back to what GTS was all about in the first place.

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KaiB

Douglas hits the nail right on the head here. Thanks.

 

The carnage at Nats last year and increasing weakening of the 13/13 are actually driving folks away from GTS. This is a fact, although as a new guy on the block, I can't and won't cite names and regions.

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edison_GTI

Porsche and BMW are the biggest players in GTS, and FWD cars (e.g. VW, Audi and Mini) have no allowances to match those RWD cars. I think some sort of weight allowance should attract more FWD cars from other series.

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cwbaader

"you are amazingly consistent, year-in and year-out, on your dislike of using torque in the calculation." Scott, I am amazed that you would say that Of course, I was not the only one who objected, not even the most vocal.

 

What you did not say, though, is torque is used twice. Once in the HP calculation, and a second time in the HP+TQ/2 calc. I would run NASA races were it not for this, and, oh yea, a couple of stupid rules regarding net dates. NASA, safety wise, is much more expensive to run than SCCA...and not any safer. Chuck

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Eric W.

oh yea, a couple of stupid rules regarding net dates. NASA, safety wise, is much more expensive to run than SCCA...and not any safer. Chuck

 

You must have NASA confused w/ BMWCCA.

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cwbaader

No argument, but does NASA have expiration date rules on the window and center nets? Does NASA require a fire system? Does NASA require FIA fuel cells? Just a couple of examples. Chuck

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vwmann1
No argument, but does NASA have expiration date rules on the window and center nets? Does NASA require a fire system? Does NASA require FIA fuel cells? Just a couple of examples. Chuck

 

I don't know who you are Mr. cwbaader, but can you please stay on topic. Start your own thread to bitch about what you don't like about NASA.

 

Back to the stated topic, how do we bring more participants to GTS.

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Eric W.
No argument, but does NASA have expiration date rules on the window and center nets?

 

5 year on left net

None on right net (and not required if u have a halo seat, but still recommended)

 

Does NASA require a fire system?

 

No. Fire extinguisher at minimum.

 

Does NASA require FIA fuel cells? Just a couple of examples. Chuck

 

No.

 

Read the rules before going on a rant

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