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JSG1901

How to attact more drivers into GTS...?

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kbrew8991
No argument, but does NASA have expiration date rules on the window and center nets? Does NASA require a fire system? Does NASA require FIA fuel cells? Just a couple of examples. Chuck

 

I don't know who you are Mr. cwbaader, but can you please stay on topic. Start your own thread to bitch about what you don't like about NASA.

 

Back to the stated topic, how do we bring more participants to GTS.

It's disingenuous at best to ask how your series can gain more drivers yet berate an ex-driver about what ran them away and what is running away people like them.

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edison_GTI
Porsche and BMW are the biggest players in GTS, and FWD cars (e.g. VW, Audi and Mini) have no allowances to match those RWD cars. I think some sort of weight allowance should attract more FWD cars from other series.

 

I'm going to quote my own post because I think it's getting lost in the second page.

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beaner

I like the idea of an allowance for FWD. My MINI is a GTS4 car. I can also run ST2. The size of the field in both classes will influence my decision on where to run.

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vwmann1
No argument, but does NASA have expiration date rules on the window and center nets? Does NASA require a fire system? Does NASA require FIA fuel cells? Just a couple of examples. Chuck

 

I don't know who you are Mr. cwbaader, but can you please stay on topic. Start your own thread to bitch about what you don't like about NASA.

 

Back to the stated topic, how do we bring more participants to GTS.

It's disingenuous at best to ask how your series can gain more drivers yet berate an ex-driver about what ran them away and what is running away people like them.

 

Nets and fire systems have nothing to do with GTS. A more productive conversation would be ," how do we develop a rules package that allows Chuck to bring his IT car to GTS". Like I said try to stay on topic.

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kbrew8991

So trying to determine if its something in the GTS ruleset that pushes people away, or a NASA stuff that pushes people away isn't smart? Seems like it would be to me, but what do I know. I'll let you keep taking pot shots at Chuck if you want, but don't do it behind the veil of "I'm just trying to stay on topic" when you're really not

 

oh and Edison - told ya so on the FWD thing

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vwmann1

Ken you may want to take your own advice with the pot shots comment. If there is a NASA rules problem it is beyond the immediate sphere of influence of the GTS director.

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vwmann1

Scott

Have the higher ups in NASA given you and direction in how they see GTS moving forward? It may be helpful to know what they want to see, then the group will have somewhat of a direction on where to concentrate?

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cwbaader

Had a customer that wanted to to the NASA nats...FIA cell required. Center net and window net with date required (hence replacement required). Fire system, not bottle required. This was GTS. Perhaps you should read the CCR. Chuck

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flink

I'm in the "let's join ST and GTS" camp - a catchall power-to-weight class. I don't care what country my competitors' cars were made in - why should I? But that wasn't the question

 

Scott, I suspect you're asking in the wrong place: maybe go and ask the BMWCCA/PCA/PRC/etc guys what their thoughts are regarding GTS? bimmerforums and rennlist...

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Eric W.
Had a customer that wanted to to the NASA nats...FIA cell required. Center net and window net with date required (hence replacement required). Fire system, not bottle required. This was GTS. Perhaps you should read the CCR. Chuck

 

OK, if you are already running a fuel cell, then yes. But it isnt required to run in general.

 

 

15.4 Fuel Cell / Tank

A fuel cell is not required, except as specified by class rules

 

Youre dead wrong about the nets and fire though.

 

15.1 Fire Extinguisher

All cars without a fire system should have at least a fire extinguisher securely mounted

inside within driver’s reach while normally seated, belts fastened and steering wheel in

place.

 

15.2 Fire System

It is highly recommended that a fire system be installed (required on some cars, as

specified in class rules GTS rules make no mention of fire systems).

 

Left Side Nets:

15.10 Windows / Window Nets

The window net must be in very good

condition and carry an SFI label indicating a date showing that the net is less than five

(5) years old.

 

15.17.9 Head Restraint – Side Impact

All vehicles must be outfitted with a right-side impact head restraint system. A seat with

a “bolster” to keep the head from moving to the right side in an impact is acceptable. A

side-impact head-net restraint system, such as shown in picture 15.17.9-2 below, is also

acceptable. NO mention of dates

 

Maybe you are confused w/ BMWCCA which requires new nets every 2 years, fire suppression and HANS recerts every 5.

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JSG1901

Wow...this got ugly. If I started that, then I apologize.

 

I take very much to heart (in the right way) the comments about last year's Nationals. I've already been discussing this--and anticipated changes for 2012--among some of the regional SDs and will add a post to the forum about it as soon as I finish this...but it will be a new post so it's easier for everybody to find.

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cwbaader

No problem, Scott...I'm done. Chuck

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Fred Crawford
Wow...this got ugly. If I started that, then I apologize.

 

I take very much to heart (in the right way) the comments about last year's Nationals. I've already been discussing this--and anticipated changes for 2012--among some of the regional SDs and will add a post to the forum about it as soon as I finish this...but it will be a new post so it's easier for everybody to find.

 

 

Welcome to the GTS National Directors position.......

 

Fred

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John Graber

Ok so GTS was created as a very simple Wt/HP class. It allowed cars from PCA, SCCA, BMWCCA etc. to show-up and fall into line. That worked great for a few years....

 

Then cars started to be come more specifically developed for GTS, modifying items that were not allowed in many of the PCA, SCCA or BMWCCA classes, other than some wide open classes like GT.

 

So now a gap developes between the drop-in PCA, SCCA and BMWCCA guys and the GTS developed cars.

 

Now to Scott's original question "how to grow GTS." Here are my thoughts.

 

I believe the goal is to lure them over based on the growing fields, driver camraderie, progressive format, youthful energy etc. Provide them with a great experience and then get them to stay. Stay means choose a class and build your car to maximize the rules set. The "crossover" rules mentality works ok when you are the one stealing, but not so well when it goes the other way. It is not a solid business plan for the long-run.

 

Why do drivers continue to run in PCA, SSCA, BMWCCA after the Nasa experience? Find out and work to resolve the issue. Is it travel, cost, lower competition, prize money, contingency etc.

 

Finally, NASA has been supportive of GTS, but at the same time detrimental to it's success. The lower Wt/HP classes (I can't necessarily say faster) stand alone for the most part within NASA other than the opportunity to run in Super Touring. Super Touring does not completely align and given the German component not much of a threat. The higher Wt/Hp classes (can't say slower) on the other hand have lots of competition within NASA. SE30, Spec 944, Spec3, Performance Touring etc. all compete for the GTS1/2 cars.

Perhaps it's time to bring these lower powered cars together? Doubtful it will work without a bunch of attrition. The other option is to limit modifcation factors for the lower GTS 1/2 classes to reduce the investment and bring in more cars. Once you do that you close the gap between GTS and the spec classes and drivers start to jump around there too.

 

So my conclusion is the success of GTS, and any class for that matter, is about the people and the leadership. Get an energetic Series Director, develop a base of good committed core drivers and spread the word. I have been a Series Director for TT, PT, and ST for 9 years. I have seen a lot of classes rise and fall and without a doubt this is the single biggest factor. I have followed Scott Good for several years in GTS and seen it first hand. I have never been to a Mid Atlantic event, but I have heard and seen online the enthusiasm from Eric Wong and their growing GTS contingency. It works.

 

My$.02

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beaner

John: i haven't been around NASA or GTS much, but your post seems to be on point. i'm watching this thread closely while trying to figure out whether to enter GTS or ST. other than contingencies and class size, it doesn't really matter to me where i run. i will always be trying to pass the car in front and stay ahead or the one behind, regardless of the class sticker on the car.

 

greg

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rabbit_diesel
So, my question is, what can/should/might be done to help build GTS everywhere, including both the haves and the have-nots?

The (WT*2)/(HP+TQ) rule is an error. Get rid of it, or fix it.

 

It has a negative effect on GTS. Several people saw my car and expressed interest in also building a diesel GTS car. I pointed this rule out to them, and recommended they figure out how their car would be competitive if it was 20 or 50 HP down on power compared to the other cars (for the engine being considered). So far, I have not seen any other diesel cars enter GTS sprint races...

 

Will

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Brad Waite

Scott,

This thread clearly examples the "no good deed goes unpunished principle" or worse yet, the well intended "suggestion" box in the workplace. Your simple question about how to attract more racers to GTS, has turned into a rehash of the same debates we've seen on this forum for several years. Kinda like asking how you can sell more boats, and having people tell you that if you added wheels and they could be driven on the street, more people would buy them.....lol.

 

Brad

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D_Eclipse9916
Scott,

This thread clearly examples the "no good deed goes unpunished principle" or worse yet, the well intended "suggestion" box in the workplace. Your simple question about how to attract more racers to GTS, has turned into a rehash of the same debates we've seen on this forum for several years. Kinda like asking how you can sell more boats, and having people tell you that if you added wheels and they could be driven on the street, more people would buy them.....lol.

 

Brad

 

Reduce cost. I know of personally at least 3 racers that are "scared" of GTS because of the open ruleset. I didnt build my car for GTS2, I only run it because that is where people are right now. I am sure some are in GTS simply because of this open ruleset. This is why I do not make rules, thats your job

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ThePaul
Scott,

This thread clearly examples the "no good deed goes unpunished principle" or worse yet, the well intended "suggestion" box in the workplace. Your simple question about how to attract more racers to GTS, has turned into a rehash of the same debates we've seen on this forum for several years. Kinda like asking how you can sell more boats, and having people tell you that if you added wheels and they could be driven on the street, more people would buy them.....lol.

 

Brad

 

Sir, your idea of boats with wheels intrigues me. How might one subscribe to your newsletter?

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Cobra4B
Scott,

This thread clearly examples the "no good deed goes unpunished principle" or worse yet, the well intended "suggestion" box in the workplace. Your simple question about how to attract more racers to GTS, has turned into a rehash of the same debates we've seen on this forum for several years. Kinda like asking how you can sell more boats, and having people tell you that if you added wheels and they could be driven on the street, more people would buy them.....lol.

 

Brad

 

Sir, your idea of boats with wheels intrigues me. How might one subscribe to your newsletter?

Where might I invest in this idea?

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vwmann1

Scott

I really like the suggestion of going over and asking the PCA and BMWCCA guys what they think. The reality is we are all guessing at what they think. Put it up on the Rennlist and Bimmerforums and ask. Be ready to get your ears pinned, but listen and try to weed thought the B.S. It may give you better info to base your decisions on.

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JSG1901
Scott

I really like the suggestion of going over and asking the PCA and BMWCCA guys what they think. The reality is we are all guessing at what they think. Put it up on the Rennlist and Bimmerforums and ask. Be ready to get your ears pinned, but listen and try to weed thought the B.S. It may give you better info to base your decisions on.

Doug, I like that idea, too. I also really like the idea of trying to be more inclusive of the HPDE participants DURING our events (particularly those in German cars but, realistically, anybody) because they are a likely and enthusiastic source of new participants who already, presumably, know and like NASA.

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Brad Waite

And now in a moment of seriousness, I do agree that the 13/13 or some other type of enforcement should be strengthened to maintain some integrity in the series. I appreciate your comments about the Nationals and agree with them. As someone who was in P1 in the Championship race until being punted off the track from behind in Keyhole, it was pretty disappointing to not see any penalty imposed, even if it would have been against me, for having the gall to drive a 944 and not pull over for an upcoming Cup car.....lol

 

Brad

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ThePaul

 

Reduce cost. I know of personally at least 3 racers that are "scared" of GTS because of the open ruleset. I didnt build my car for GTS2, I only run it because that is where people are right now. I am sure some are in GTS simply because of this open ruleset. This is why I do not make rules, thats your job

 

I'm one of those "scared" racers and I'm in GTS2 for now until more PTC/PTD guys show up. Already blew my budget to catch up with the back of the field.

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Brad Waite

I understand what "The Paul" is saying as certainly there are varying budgets on what people are willing to spend on racing. That said, at least in NASA with the open rule set, you are making a conscious decision as to how competitive you want to be and the wt/hp open rule set provides no room for gamesmanship. I am personally one of several racers who moved from PCA to NASA after running in a stock class against "cheater" motors with no system for verification of stock status. Granted the vast majority of PCA racers were and are honest. However, it just takes one dishonest racer to show up to create a situation where everyone else knows they are racing for second. In NASA, you choose where you want to run in the pack, based upon your skill and budget........at least its all out in the open and legal.

 

Brad

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