Jump to content
JSG1901

How to attact more drivers into GTS...?

Recommended Posts

UKRBMW

Our cars are disadvantaged in ST for a few reasons. Their torque is free and ours is not. I know of many cars that run much higher torque than HP in ST and that is certainly an advantage. Plus, ST gives out penalties to a lot of cars that took advantage of the open rule set - side exhaust, floor pan modification, engine relocation, etc.

 

Unfortunately it is impossible to please everybody. I think at first it was a great crossover class, now folks are building actual GTS cars that are fast and crossover folks are getting discouraged. I think if you start going down the path of making everyone happy get ready for modifiers and a decent amount of them (probably help me)!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
DBeck

Maybe I can add some info from a driver who is on the fence now about starting W2W with BMW Club Racing vs. NASA GTS. The process has been fairly typical....doing autox's in the car....HPDE....more prep....DE Solo...... NASA TT and now to W2W. My initial exposure was by joining the BMWCCA where I did my first DE but they were few and far between with BMW. Since I live in Texas there is a good calendar of events for NASA . Back in the 1990's I raced in off road trucks and did race professionally for 1 year. Then a kid, a divorce and my racing ended but the racing was always in my thoughts.

As I started making real plans for the car and W2W I was very hesitant about NASA due to the image of a more "rubbing" version of racing versus BMW, with a strict no contact policy. After I watched the GTS Nationals from Ohio this year I was not going to race in GTS. People were over driving and seemed to have little regard for other cars and it appeared, with no penalty. I will say that at the events I went to in Texas I didn't really see that to be true, other than the Miata's . This was important to me. I am my team and potential body damage for a trophy? I ended up doing the BMW club racing school, which I really enjoyed. James Clay was one of the instructors and I have to say it was nice having him there. It has been a real struggle after that to decide which series to pursue but I have decide I am going to give it a go in GTS. The rules to me are ideal for someone like me. I can run a very reliable stock motor with around 230 RWHP and with the car weighing around 2550 it is a perfect GTS-3 car. Aero and other other changes are things I can do myself. I had a lot of fun making my front fenders, air dam and splitter so my 285/30-18's stay out of the air. If I want to race in BMW, motors ($$$$) are a big a part of the equation and that is not the kind of thing you do in your garage.

I went to watch the races this weekend at MSR-Cresson in Texas and I am hoping to start racing at the April event at TWS.

I really like the changes noted for Nationals.

 

IMG_12199.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
JSG1901

Welcome Dave! I'm glad you're giving GTS a try. A couple of thoughts about your comments...

 

1) Last year's nationals notwithstanding, I'm not convinced NASA deserves as much of a reputation as we seem to have in some circles about contact. I come from the PCA side and while they are completely Draconian about contact, there's still plenty of it...at least at the events I've been to.

 

It is true, though, that we don't have a ZERO CONTACT rule. My unofficial but personal opinion is that if you are truly racing hard and close (which is the best kind), inevitably, from time to time, cars are going to touch. I would like to think NASA's approach is an attempt to provide a realistic middle ground. If you read the CCR, there are some very specific and pretty strong penalties for contact.

 

2) Your reason for giving NASA a try is what I love about GTS...you can make it work your way. Some guys go huge horsepower and lots of weight. Personally, I'd rather have less horsepower and less weight. But NASA GTS gives you room to tweak, fiddle, optimize and generally experiment. I love that about it and I think you will, too.

 

Welcome!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
911.racer

Here are my thoughts, if you want them. And, I got board and gave up reading all of the posts, so excuse me if I repeat someone else.

 

 

Parity between the other clubs that race PCA and BMW primarily (I am a PCA guy, so I can speak to that group)

 

I used to race PCA, SCCA and NASA. I raced GTxs in PCA with was pretty much an open class other than safety just like the GTS is, so other than tweaking my weight I could switch back and forth between groups pretty easily and be competitive in both.

 

I started doing more NASA than any of the others (and this was about 5 years ago) because:

1. SCCA sucks for my car choice. I was running ITE, so depending on what showed up I could be by myself, rule the field, or get stomped.

2. PCA HAD an overly restrictive 13/13 rule that had me upset for a while.

 

I still race with PCA and hope to increase that in the future with my new race car. I also race with PCA because I see the same racers event after event because they travel good distances to get there. Mosport WG, VIR, ...

 

Regional NASA guys stay in region in general. Do we even race at WG ? If I went there I am pretty sure I would know no one.

 

Why do I race NASA more than anything now ?

 

THE PEOPLE. I like the people I race with. I like the organizers. I like the way the classes are structured and the way the rules are administrated.

 

What can we do to get more racers in GTS:

 

ADVERTISE. We all need to get out there to the PCA and BMW guys and try to change the image of NASA. Right now it is still not good. SCCA and PCA guys say negative things about NASA. They think we are a bunch of red necks banging our cars up with no rules and out of control.

 

Most of the people on the other boards who are saying negative things about the 13/13 rule do not even participate with NASA. They just look at the highlight reels. I have some great PCA crash videos. Probably more than NASA. These guys have no idea the level of competition that we bring.

 

Heck, Bryon mentioned the GTS1 GL class in his post, which I am a member of the prep escalation, in the August race the top 5 cars finished within 2.5 seconds of each other without any double yellow flags.

 

I took that same car to Watkins and currently have the GT5s fast lap in it. I was even beating most if not all of the spec boxter guys.

 

So, all of that said. Two ways of getting more cars.

 

Change NASA image with PCA and BMW (and the 13/13 rule is not how to do it)

Everyone who races GTS needs to spread the word with the PCA and BMW guys.

 

 

That was a lot of typing.

 

Thanks

 

Ed

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Luke P.

I know that the NASA HPDE program brings drivers up to racing, maybe through TT, and to racing on a clear path. In the Midwest (and maybe other regions) this path does not exist in with BMWCCA, also plenty of potential racers are driving with Audi, Trackdaze, ect.

 

Here's an idea: Most of us are good enough driver's and personable enough to be instructors. Try to grab some of the guys in your region and attend a DE with the racecars of a target euro car club that has potential racers. One or two events is enough to get noticed and its refreshing turning fun laps on scrub tires with the race buddies, then drinking beer and talking racing GTS to the participants.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
911.racer

Luke,

 

In out area, most of the GTS guys participate in PCA DE as well (mostly as instructors) I am a chair of one of the events at Mid Ohio as well. Most of us bring the race cars and use the time for test and tune. Last april (remember I am one of the overprepared 944's in GTS1) I used the weekend to wool tuff the car and video it from the outside to trial several different aero peices.

 

we do a good job of talking it up, but I can tell you that in our regions (and I can name names) there are those who think that the NASA DE is one step up from an open fun day at the track with no real rules. We try to talk that down as much as we can without sounding fanatical, but it is an opinion that is hard to change.

 

Thanks

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
DBeck
Welcome Dave! I'm glad you're giving GTS a try. A couple of thoughts about your comments...

 

Well I'm signed up for my first GTS event at Texas World Speedway at the end of this month. Everyone has been really helpful. Went to the last event a couple of weeks ago at MSR Cresson and met the Texas GTS Director, Mike Patterson, and he had lots of good info. Will Faules, at the main office, has helped me get all my paperwork correctly submitted. I'll let you know how it goes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
cstreit911

Reduce cost. I know of personally at least 3 racers that are "scared" of GTS because of the open ruleset. I didnt build my car for GTS2, I only run it because that is where people are right now. I am sure some are in GTS simply because of this open ruleset. This is why I do not make rules, thats your job

 

While in general I agree with this, last time I checked GTS doesn't charge more for entry fees than the other classes. So it doesn't cost more.

 

What you are REALLY saying is "Allow me to be one of the fast guys for cheap." That's all relative. Even Spec classes get expensive. How much does a top Sunbelt Spec Miata engine cost vs. a jukyard engine? $20k vs. $500? Scottie B has kicked many an azz with a junkyard motor in GTS. My 1970 Porsche GTS4 car did fairly well. It was't some high-end Cup Car.... So while I agree that looking at costs is something we should continually do, we need to be realistic with ourselves that running German cars IS expensive, street or track... The $$$ guys will always find a way to spend more to be better, no matter what you do.

 

Cost is something we should keep an eye to though, as no one wants this series to become something that basically you spend your way to the podium with...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
cstreit911
Maybe I can add some info from a driver who is on the fence now about starting W2W with BMW Club Racing vs. NASA GTS.

 

Dave,

 

Thanks for that feedback. The behavior you saw at Nationals makes many of us very dissapointed. I'm the SD of the Midwest Region and if I had seen that before joining, I would have stayed away too. In fact I will personally miss Nationals in 2012 if I don't feel like it's addressed sufficiently.. That said, it was an anomoly (sp) and certainly does not go on at a regional level. There were a number of reasons that have been discussed at the top about why this happened and it will be rectified. Additionally I know Scott and the other SD's are working hard (myself included) to ensure that there will never be a repeat of that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
DBeck

To touch on the cost issue.....from my perspective. I really consider GTS the more economical way to race versus BMWCCA racing. What I mean by that is in BMW and many of the other classes of racing it seems to heavily weighted on who has the most horsepower. My car would be classed as a C-Mod car. Right off the bat that means I need 325-350+ HP to be competitive. I am aware of some cars in that class that have well in excess of $12,000 in their motors. And it's the same in JP, IP. In addition these are motors are typically temperamental, have a defined window between re-builds and require racing fuel ($$$$$). Here in GTS I can run a stock block/head , in my case, using inexpensive off-the-shelf larger injectors (using Ford V8 24lb versus stock 17lb), a home made CAI, a replacement E PROM, Ebay headers and that nets me around 230-240 HP. That's reliable HP that should only require basic expendables between races. I did devote most of my bigger expenditures to suspension since there is really no short cut there but it's a lot less than motor work.

Now the fun stuff....Aero. Look at my car (picture in the post several up) I made my fenders from knock-off fenders that cost $28.00 (really!) and some sheet metal from home depot. The front bumper is another knock off piece that I made reach down further using some foam with bondo on it. I spent nothing making the rear windows flush versus the original inset design. My splitter is 1/4 plywood. That is cheap horsepower.

I guess my point is that so much home made stuff can be done in GTS that would be good in other classes but not to the extent it is in GTS. Let's face it, racing is not cheap but keeping the between race maintenance requirements down, using pump gas etc. it's doable. As a hunter friend once told me, that deer each year ends up costing him around $3000 - $ 5000 after all the expenses but what a great time he had.

See you at the track!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Darrtracing

John,

 

Just coming out of winter hibernation to see what's going on and stumbled across this piece. Much of this "viewpoints" of technical regulations were like a blast from the past.

 

As to your question, definately the best route is for the drivers to "spread the word" about what they like and why they race in GTS. Advertising is always a good idea, but as they say in marketing, "half of marketing works, but you don't know which half.". ANd it ain't cheap and asking for money is like asking to reduce taxes. If anything happens, it won't be much.

 

In GL, GTS is pretty sucessful and I believe it is due to reasons which can be repeated in other regions. Good communication from leadership (pun intended) making it easy to know what you have to do to go racing. Great, great commrodaire from fellow competitors (this is big). Having raced GL GTS for almost 10 years, the group is great and trust level is high. This allows for a comfort level of great racing. Evening race videos, cookouts and biergartens help with this. Even the families know each other.

 

The downside, which has already been voiced, is the perception of increasing contact. I say perception because I don't have data to support this, but I do believe it to be true. In the 2007 Nationals, I was DQed for avoidable contact which today wouldn't even raise an eyebrow. Sour grapes? Maybe, but the "penalty box" after races looks like a parking lot and the volume of contact looks like it has risen. Cleaning this up should be prior 1 and if a few folks get torqued, so be it. I wasnt happy in 2007, but I appreciated the consistency of judgement and came back.

 

On the technical side, a stable rule set is critical. Part of GTSs success is the rules have not been tinkered much over the years which allows confidence in the longevity of your cr build. Yes, there are "winners and losers" and if I had a diesel I would feel difference, but you can't please everyone since there exists a wide range of cars that folks want to race.

 

As for the high ratio classes (1&2), they're in a rock and a hard place. Yes, to be competitive here, it's a purpose built car not eligiable for other places. And it does cost $, but hey, it's racing. Many question spending a lot of dough or time on a low HP car with a limited market or when just a little more will get you a 3/4 car with more value and more options. Additionally, there is quite a bit of competing classes within NASA which hurt. Not sure I see a simple solution here without some repercussions.

 

So, in short, 1) make it easy for new guys (and old guys) 2) build tight comradarire within the group, 3) spread the word 4) reduce cintact and 5) keep rule stability.

 

Just my 2 cents.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
jakermc
Welcome Dave! I'm glad you're giving GTS a try. A couple of thoughts about your comments...

 

Well I'm signed up for my first GTS event at Texas World Speedway at the end of this month. Everyone has been really helpful. Went to the last event a couple of weeks ago at MSR Cresson and met the Texas GTS Director, Mike Patterson, and he had lots of good info. Will Faules, at the main office, has helped me get all my paperwork correctly submitted. I'll let you know how it goes.

 

Welcome to GTS! With regards to contact, we have had very few issues here in TX. In fact our Blitz run group had the fewest issues of any group in the region in 2011. Some very good drivers in the group and they all race clean. Any incidence of contact has generally just come from a mistake as opposed to aggression.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
CKKrause
Welcome Dave! I'm glad you're giving GTS a try. A couple of thoughts about your comments...

 

It is true, though, that we don't have a ZERO CONTACT rule. My unofficial but personal opinion is that if you are truly racing hard and close (which is the best kind), inevitably, from time to time, cars are going to touch. I would like to think NASA's approach is an attempt to provide a realistic middle ground. If you read the CCR, there are some very specific and pretty strong penalties for contact.

 

Sorry to say, but your comments above and the national championship carnage, where those "strong penalties" were no where to be seen, is the impression that PCA and BMWCCA guys have of GTS... and it's what keeps them away. If you have a car w/$80-100K into it and you hear the Series Director say a little contact is OK, you imagine what that means as it trickles down to the GTS masses... Make it an expectation that you will get through a race weekend unscathed and they will join up... Otherwise they won't.

 

-Chuck

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
911.racer

Sorry to say, but your comments above and the national championship carnage, where those "strong penalties" were no where to be seen, is the impression that PCA and BMWCCA guys have of GTS... and it's what keeps them away. If you have a car w/$80-100K into it and you hear the Series Director say a little contact is OK, you imagine what that means as it trickles down to the GTS masses... Make it an expectation that you will get through a race weekend unscathed and they will join up... Otherwise they won't.

 

-Chuck

 

Do you race? Have you ever had an at fault contact? Have you ever been hit and it not be your fault? How severe do you want the penalties to be for an at fault contact. At what point do we lose drivers because everyone lost their license.

 

Have you ever had an at fault accident on the street? Did you loose you license to drive over it? At some point you need to consider that you are racing and that it is possible that when you are going 150+ within a couple feet of others that contact is going to happen.

 

And, how do you handle that when there are mixed classes in racing. Do you really think that 13 month probation like PCA is going to stop body contact? Have you been to a PCA race? I am used to seeing more contact at PCA and much worse contact at PCA than at NASA.

 

And, how many $80-$100k cars are there out there racing in GTS.

 

BTW, this is coming from a guy that races as much as he can and has never had an at fault contact with NASA. This is also the guy that just had his $$$ 2004 GT3 Cup race car banged into by a CMC Firebird. Do you know what I said to him? These things happen. Because you know what, they do. He lost control in a braking zone and went into a spin that ended up in my door/rear quarter. (carbon fiber $2k door) Not a lot either of us could do once it started happening. He made a mistake. He was found at fault. I still had the most damage (and certainly the most expensive damage)

 

Thanks

 

Ed

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
RSCoupe

Just an FYI to everyone thinking about running at Nationals; penalties will be strict, but also based upon the CCR.

For those of you who don't know me, just ask anyone that runs in Midwest or Great Lakes regions.

 

I will be your Race Director.

Edited by Guest

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
JSG1901
I will be your Race Director.

Congratulations, Mark...I hadn't heard that yet. I'm looking forward to it. That should be fun!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
cstreit911
Just an FYI to everyone thinking about running at Nationals; penalties will be strict, but also based upon the CCR.

For those of you who don't know me, just ask anyone that runs in Midwest or Great Lakes regions.

I will be your Race Director.

 

I'll second Scott. Congratulations. Glad to see you're on the team!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
rlipner
Just an FYI to everyone thinking about running at Nationals; penalties will be strict, but also based upon the CCR.

For those of you who don't know me, just ask anyone that runs in Midwest or Great Lakes regions.

 

I will be your Race Director.

 

 

Outstanding news Mark, and yes folks he is strict.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sterling Doc

For those fo you who haven't met Mark, here's a picture:

 

1306486656851.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
CKKrause

 

Do you race? Have you ever had an at fault contact? Have you ever been hit and it not be your fault? How severe do you want the penalties to be for an at fault contact. At what point do we lose drivers because everyone lost their license.

 

Have you ever had an at fault accident on the street? Did you loose you license to drive over it? At some point you need to consider that you are racing and that it is possible that when you are going 150+ within a couple feet of others that contact is going to happen.

 

And, how do you handle that when there are mixed classes in racing. Do you really think that 13 month probation like PCA is going to stop body contact? Have you been to a PCA race? I am used to seeing more contact at PCA and much worse contact at PCA than at NASA.

 

And, how many $80-$100k cars are there out there racing in GTS.

 

BTW, this is coming from a guy that races as much as he can and has never had an at fault contact with NASA. This is also the guy that just had his $$$ 2004 GT3 Cup race car banged into by a CMC Firebird. Do you know what I said to him? These things happen. Because you know what, they do. He lost control in a braking zone and went into a spin that ended up in my door/rear quarter. (carbon fiber $2k door) Not a lot either of us could do once it started happening. He made a mistake. He was found at fault. I still had the most damage (and certainly the most expensive damage)

 

Thanks

 

Ed

 

Yes I've been racing for the past 3 years... Mostly w/BMWCCA and NASA GTS2... No contact needing needing repair in maybe 40-50 races...

 

The question was, how do attract more to the class... and I have a number of friends who race PCA and BMWCCA and I think I represented their views well... The fact is they don't want to increase the risk of damage to their, often, very expensively built cars. And they "perceive" they will if they race in the current iteration of GTS. Pretty simple...

 

-Chuck

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Michael G.

Chuck,

I am not sure, may be folks on the west coast see this differently, but I can tell you that here in the NY metro area, we have large number of BMWCCA, PCA and NASA racers crossing over, and the risk of damage is not the reason for even bigger mix, but mostly the scheduling conflict and the preferences based on what the cars built for.

Michael G. (NE GTS Dir.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
911.racer

 

Yes I've been racing for the past 3 years... Mostly w/BMWCCA and NASA GTS2... No contact needing needing repair in maybe 40-50 races...

 

The question was, how do attract more to the class... and I have a number of friends who race PCA and BMWCCA and I think I represented their views well... The fact is they don't want to increase the risk of damage to their, often, very expensively built cars. And they "perceive" they will if they race in the current iteration of GTS. Pretty simple...

 

-Chuck

 

And, what I am saying is that it is just that. A perception. At least in the PCA, SCCA, and NASA races that I have been involved in there are about equal amount of car damage in each. Any rules that are put in place to monitor the GTS class alone are pretty much useless if we are running in a mixed class. (Try swimming through about 30 spec Miatas while chasing down a leader) There are always guys out of class racing.

 

Last nationals may be an exception to that. Nationals has always been very stressful. Everyone is trying to be at the peak of performance. Two qualifying races and then the big race. Hard to be perfect all weekend. Then, add a rain storm that soaks down two corners of the track and convinces about half the field to go out on rain tires. I won GTS1. I also beat the guy who won GTS5. Having that kind of mix of cars and performance levels (in the straights and in the corners) is very difficult.

 

40 to 50 races in 3 years. That is impressive. 15 races per year. You must not live in the north like I do, but that said, when I first started and I was racing all three groups I was probably knocking down about 20 a year.

 

Interesting thing. More than half of the GTS drivers that I race with around here also race in PCA or BMW too.

 

Thanks

 

Ed

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Mike Miller

I watched the PCA races at Lime Rock last weekend and saw quite a bit of carnage. I saw the results of 3 incidents with car to car contact on Saturday alone. Many cars were hauled in on rollbacks. Having attended numerous PCA events as a spectator and NASA events as a racer, I'd say with confidence they are equal with regard to contact. It is going to happen when guys race for position.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Cyclingpeaks

If you want more Porsche 911 drivers, you have to get rid of the Torque issue.

 

Racing against BMW's with 200hp, but 248lb of torque is killing our GTS2 class here in Mid-Atlantic.

Impossible to compete when you have 215hp and 187lb. of torque.

 

I am last man standing in a 911 in GTS2. All the 911's have left to race PCA or bought other cars where they can

be competitive again.

This is an issue and I am not the only one talking about it. All the mid-atlantic 911 drivers have left GTS2 bc of this.

 

Hunter

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
D_Eclipse9916
If you want more Porsche 911 drivers, you have to get rid of the Torque issue.

 

Racing against BMW's with 200hp, but 248lb of torque is killing our GTS2 class here in Mid-Atlantic.

Impossible to compete when you have 215hp and 187lb. of torque.

 

I am last man standing in a 911 in GTS2. All the 911's have left to race PCA or bought other cars where they can

be competitive again.

This is an issue and I am not the only one talking about it. All the mid-atlantic 911 drivers have left GTS2 bc of this.

 

Hunter

 

 

el o el wut? Torque rule of .5 torque?? Plus I know all of the gts2 drivers in the region, and actually am one. I run 209hp/210 torque, most run around 219hp/215-220tq.

 

Would love to know a gts2 mid-atlantic bmw that makes 200hp/248torque

 

PS- Jason Crist was doing pretty dominant last year in his 2.8 liter in gts2 with ~200 horsepower and around 170-180 torque.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...