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JSG1901

How to attact more drivers into GTS...?

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cwbaader

Gosh, Scott...someone else bringing up the 2X torque rule. Imagine that

 

At some point in time someone realizes that the rule is unfair to certain engine combinations...they go to where they can be competitive without spending mega bucks...enough said. Chuck

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scottbm3
If you want more Porsche 911 drivers, you have to get rid of the Torque issue.

 

Racing against BMW's with 200hp, but 248lb of torque is killing our GTS2 class here in Mid-Atlantic.

Impossible to compete when you have 215hp and 187lb. of torque.

 

I am last man standing in a 911 in GTS2. All the 911's have left to race PCA or bought other cars where they can

be competitive again.

This is an issue and I am not the only one talking about it. All the mid-atlantic 911 drivers have left GTS2 bc of this.

 

Hunter

 

I would like to see the BMW's Dyno sheet in GTS2 that make 200hp and 248 Trq ??

 

-Scott B.

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JSG1901
If you want more Porsche 911 drivers, you have to get rid of the Torque issue.

 

Racing against BMW's with 200hp, but 248lb of torque is killing our GTS2 class here in Mid-Atlantic.

Impossible to compete when you have 215hp and 187lb. of torque.

 

I am last man standing in a 911 in GTS2. All the 911's have left to race PCA or bought other cars where they can be competitive again.

 

This is an issue and I am not the only one talking about it. All the mid-atlantic 911 drivers have left GTS2 bc of this.

 

Hunter

Without arguing for or against the torque, 215 hp is too much to be competitive in GTS2. The car has to weigh too much, regardless of the torque. The fastest GTS2 cars are all under 200 hp. Mine, last year at Nationals, was 196 hp.

 

215 hp = 3,118 lbs.

196 hp = 2,842 lbs, which is 276 lbs less. All else being equal, which it isn't, that's about 2 seconds a lap at Mid-Ohio.

 

I would like to see the BMW's Dyno sheet in GTS2 that makes 200hp and 248 Trq ??

That's even worse. He would have to weigh 3,248 lbs minimum, a 400-lb disadvantage in braking and cornering for substantially the same acceleration. I'd take that fight any day.

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Cyclingpeaks

Uh Jason Crist? That's the car I am referring too! And he said he was bummed because it was 'down' on torque at VIR in Feb and needed to go tweak it more with his laptop. This was AT the dyno! I was standing right there watching his run and saw the numbers.....

 

If you want more Porsche 911 drivers, you have to get rid of the Torque issue.

 

Racing against BMW's with 200hp, but 248lb of torque is killing our GTS2 class here in Mid-Atlantic.

Impossible to compete when you have 215hp and 187lb. of torque.

 

I am last man standing in a 911 in GTS2. All the 911's have left to race PCA or bought other cars where they can

be competitive again.

This is an issue and I am not the only one talking about it. All the mid-atlantic 911 drivers have left GTS2 bc of this.

 

Hunter

 

 

el o el wut? Torque rule of .5 torque?? Plus I know all of the gts2 drivers in the region, and actually am one. I run 209hp/210 torque, most run around 219hp/215-220tq.

 

Would love to know a gts2 mid-atlantic bmw that makes 200hp/248torque

 

PS- Jason Crist was doing pretty dominant last year in his 2.8 liter in gts2 with ~200 horsepower and around 170-180 torque.

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Cyclingpeaks
If you want more Porsche 911 drivers, you have to get rid of the Torque issue.

 

Racing against BMW's with 200hp, but 248lb of torque is killing our GTS2 class here in Mid-Atlantic.

Impossible to compete when you have 215hp and 187lb. of torque.

 

I am last man standing in a 911 in GTS2. All the 911's have left to race PCA or bought other cars where they can be competitive again.

 

This is an issue and I am not the only one talking about it. All the mid-atlantic 911 drivers have left GTS2 bc of this.

 

Hunter

Without arguing for or against the torque, 215 hp is too much to be competitive in GTS2. The car has to weigh too much, regardless of the torque. The fastest GTS2 cars are all under 200 hp. Mine, last year at Nationals, was 196 hp.

 

215 hp = 3,118 lbs.

196 hp = 2,842 lbs, which is 276 lbs less. All else being equal, which it isn't, that's about 2 seconds a lap at Mid-Ohio.

 

I would like to see the BMW's Dyno sheet in GTS2 that makes 200hp and 248 Trq ??

That's even worse. He would have to weigh 3,248 lbs minimum, a 400-lb disadvantage in braking and cornering for substantially the same acceleration. I'd take that fight any day.

 

Scott- Thanks for your detailed email a couple months ago, btw. Much appreciated your time in that.

 

So, just let me get this straight then with your argument though so I can understand.

 

Basically you are saying that there is no class in GTS for my car to be competitive.

 

I won't be competitive at 215hp because of my weight in GTS2. But, I don't have anymore places to lose weight(besides going to all fiberglass body panels), in order to get into GTS3. I have scratched and scratched my head about how I could 'lose' 400+lbs out of my car. There just isn't anywhere else to lose it. Fake bumpers? Carbon fiber body panels? Or, do I have to drop in a 3.4 turbo in the car to get to GTS3? Not feasible and not realistic. Would be easier to buy another car.

 

So, the question is at the beginning of the thread: How do you get more GTS drivers? Right? Well then, I am telling you why everyone that i know that has a 911 is leaving. There are over 30 people registered in this weekends "Glen" race that are in the same class as me in the 911. I'll bet 75% of them would race Nasa as well if they could be competitive. There are nearly 300 registered drivers in the race this weekend. 300 racers! ALL could race in GTS in NASA.

 

Sounds like we need some more classes if there is large majority of drivers out there that just can't ever be competitive within the Torque(BMW skewed) GTS2, etc. Classes.

 

Seriously, though I am going to race two more times in NASA this year. If I get killed like earlier this year, then I am going to leave. It's great to race, but not fun if I am not competitive. Might as well just race PCA. I love NASA though....

 

Hunter

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scottbm3
If you want more Porsche 911 drivers, you have to get rid of the Torque issue.

 

Racing against BMW's with 200hp, but 248lb of torque is killing our GTS2 class here in Mid-Atlantic.

Impossible to compete when you have 215hp and 187lb. of torque.

 

I am last man standing in a 911 in GTS2. All the 911's have left to race PCA or bought other cars where they can be competitive again.

 

This is an issue and I am not the only one talking about it. All the mid-atlantic 911 drivers have left GTS2 bc of this.

 

Hunter

Without arguing for or against the torque, 215 hp is too much to be competitive in GTS2. The car has to weigh too much, regardless of the torque. The fastest GTS2 cars are all under 200 hp. Mine, last year at Nationals, was 196 hp.

 

215 hp = 3,118 lbs.

196 hp = 2,842 lbs, which is 276 lbs less. All else being equal, which it isn't, that's about 2 seconds a lap at Mid-Ohio.

 

I would like to see the BMW's Dyno sheet in GTS2 that makes 200hp and 248 Trq ??

That's even worse. He would have to weigh 3,248 lbs minimum, a 400-lb disadvantage in braking and cornering for substantially the same acceleration. I'd take that fight any day.

 

Scott- Thanks for your detailed email a couple months ago, btw. Much appreciated your time in that.

 

So, just let me get this straight then with your argument though so I can understand.

 

Basically you are saying that there is no class in GTS for my car to be competitive.

 

I won't be competitive at 215hp because of my weight in GTS2. But, I don't have anymore places to lose weight(besides going to all fiberglass body panels), in order to get into GTS3. I have scratched and scratched my head about how I could 'lose' 400+lbs out of my car. There just isn't anywhere else to lose it. Fake bumpers? Carbon fiber body panels? Or, do I have to drop in a 3.4 turbo in the car to get to GTS3? Not feasible and not realistic. Would be easier to buy another car.

 

So, the question is at the beginning of the thread: How do you get more GTS drivers? Right? Well then, I am telling you why everyone that i know that has a 911 is leaving. There are over 30 people registered in this weekends "Glen" race that are in the same class as me in the 911. I'll bet 75% of them would race Nasa as well if they could be competitive. There are nearly 300 registered drivers in the race this weekend. 300 racers! ALL could race in GTS in NASA.

 

Sounds like we need some more classes if there is large majority of drivers out there that just can't ever be competitive within the Torque(BMW skewed) GTS2, etc. Classes.

 

Seriously, though I am going to race two more times in NASA this year. If I get killed like earlier this year, then I am going to leave. It's great to race, but not fun if I am not competitive. Might as well just race PCA. I love NASA though....

 

Hunter

 

There are 911's that run in GTS 3 and are quite competitive. Though they probably have removed weight or have bigger motors. What year is your car and motor size. Have you thought about de-tuning/restricting it some and taking some weight out ?

 

-Scott B.

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mikew968

What car has that kind of hp/T spread? Who is it?

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UKRBMW

You can also do what all the BMWs are doing - restrictor plate or detuning. Go down 20 hp or so and run lower weight, see what happens. For some reason this is just not common with P-car folks (I know, just ran one for all of 2011).

 

I still maintain you need to do more PR at BMW and PCA events. Last few DE events I attended with PCA didn't really have any GTS presence. Some Cup cars and folks who own race cars and run HPDE1/2. Scott - get some posters made and maybe some handouts - I'm sure myself and many others would be happy to have them up while we are attending. It may spark a conversation or a ride - you just never know, but for a small investment we can find out.

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rlipner

I'm very surprised to hear about p car racers concern about trq. In total agreement with Scott B. on above. Also, one major advantage p cars have over BMWs, in particular the E36 is tire size. In the Midwest we have two very competitive (front running) GTS3 993s.

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Cyclingpeaks
What car has that kind of hp/T spread? Who is it?

 

From what I have learned, it's all the BMW's in GTS2 in Mid-Atlantic.

I would think that GTS3 BMW's are the same, but I don't know.

 

I mentioned the name of the driver(a friend of mine) whom I watched his dyno run and saw his numbers earlier in this thread already, page 8.

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D_Eclipse9916
Uh Jason Crist? That's the car I am referring too! And he said he was bummed because it was 'down' on torque at VIR in Feb and needed to go tweak it more with his laptop. This was AT the dyno! I was standing right there watching his run and saw the numbers.....

 

He must be god, because I dont know a single E36 M3 with an S52 that can make 248torque without a different motor Are you sure you are not confused? We have talked plenty and I have raced with him, and we dont pull on each other. He told me he puts down 208whp, I put down 209whp with 210 torque. We both pull the same, if he was making this outrageous claim of 248 torque (impossible with his car), then he would pull lengths on me.

 

PS- This is the dyno sheet of the current GTS2 points leader in the mid-atlantic region. A gts2 BMW.

 

313016_10100252024931889_7816010_50876660_749180074_n.jpg

 

Have you thought of restrictor plates? I run a restrictor plate down to 209whp to make a flatter torque curve, and reign my car's weight in.

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Eric W.

This is the same issue w/ BMWCCA. You just cant build a cross competitive car anymore. You have PCA rules to adhere to, etc. I dont think it is a torque issue. I think it is more of the 911 being old and newer technologies now allow for newer cars to be more competitive.

 

Crist does not have 248 torque. No way. Besides, he isnt winning anymore.

 

To my knowledge, the guys winning GTS2 now in MidAtlantic are all running around 210rwhp and similar torque. Some of the guys have been running more power/torque (not 248) and adding in hundreds of pounds of ballast, but they havent been winning.

 

I'd argue that if you really built a old 911 to GTS spec, you could probably be competitive. Aero, better suspension geometry, driveline upgrades, etc etc...

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jcrist

CRAZY misinformation here. My car does not make 210-245. Last year with the 2.8 it make 212-174.

Hunter - you are dangerous with an uneducated eye. I was forced to load my STACK data file Everytime the key was shut off because it's internal battery was dead. The STACK replaced my instrument cluster so without it I have no tach or gauges. My car was obd1 at that time and requires a chip burner to make any tuning adjustments. It is now obd2 which you can make adjustments to a few things with a programmer cord of which I do not own. With the S52, there's not much you can do - you may be thinking of a S54 which has vanos on the exhaust cam which allows for tuning for torque.

 

A great driver will beat your ass Everytime. Scott Good beat mine at Nats last year. Hunter - have Skeen get in your car and see what it turns. It's time to spend more dollars on coaching ad improving your game. It's impossible to have torque curves and hp/weight level competition with so much driver disparity.

 

This year I have switched to a S52 and gotten tunes near 210/210. Yet my head has been up my ass so far and I've only managed a few 2:10's at VIR, a couple of seconds off last year with 50lbs more torque. I know I'm the issue and therefore feel confident I will get it straight once I get time to race. If I stewed in mechanical blame I would never get that time back. Blaming my equipment will see me relegated to the back of the fact. A good kick in my ass is the correct medicine.

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jcrist

And I'd like to add (at the cost of educating my competitors) a poor setup (alignment and balance, dampers and bars) can hurt you 2-3 seconds. And burn through you tires. Same car, same driver, the good setup beats the hell out of the poor one.

But that's no fun and takes preparation, tools and education. Much easier to blame the motor.

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smdub
Impossible to compete when you have 215hp and 187lb. of torque.

There's your problem. No offense, but you don't "get" GTS rules. You have an easy to tune 3.2 (vs, say, a CIS 2.7/3.0). Go get a Wong chip and dump some of that peak hp to get hp & torque the same. Its what the "BMW guys" as you state have all done. They don't have board flat equivalent trq/hp curves from the factory.

 

I race a E36 M3 in GTS2 because its cheap. I have three porsches so I'm not just blowing smoke up yer' rear (996tt, 911, 914/6). My old 911 has a short stroke 3.32L & ITB EFI. I think 911s (and 914s) can be VERY competitive in GTS. But you CANT do it while staying cross rules PCA stock compatible else its bringing a knife to a gun fight. You you have ERP type suspension & full monoballs? Fully adjustable shocks & coilovers (can't get TBs w/ high enough spring rate.) Running a 3.8RS tail w/ a full width high mount wing? Front bumper w/ full splitter? If you didn't answer yes to ALL the above then you haven't prepped the car to even remotely the same level as your competitors. So why would you expect to be competitive?

 

At *LEAST* go chip your car to be more competitive in GTS. Will be able to dump a couple hundred # if you come down to 190hp/190lbft. If you can't then get the car light enough for 190, add weight and run GTS1.

 

Im a huge Porsche fan. I wish someone would prep a old 911 and take it to the BMWs. I really think it could be done. The 2-3 (stock) 911s we had in our region (mid atlantic) left because there were also PCA stock class cars and couldn't keep up. We tried to keep out BMW both bmwcca and TT legal, but that went out the window once things got more competitive. You have to prep a car fully to the rules to be competitive now that competition has grown and thats what everyone else is doing.

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jcrist

Oh, and Wonger - I've won a few this year and will be back to dominating shortly. Thanks for the additional motivation.

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Eric W.
Oh, and Wonger - I've won a few this year and will be back to dominating shortly. Thanks for the additional motivation.

 

Glad to help Too bad you cant dominate the 11+ in GTS2 at Hyperfest

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jcrist
Oh, and Wonger - I've won a few this year and will be back to dominating shortly. Thanks for the additional motivation.

 

Glad to help Too bad you cant dominate the 11+ in GTS2 at Hyperfest

 

Sorry for bein so impolite - thanks for the compliment actually, I've won 1/2 my starts

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Cyclingpeaks
This is the same issue w/ BMWCCA. You just cant build a cross competitive car anymore. You have PCA rules to adhere to, etc. I dont think it is a torque issue. I think it is more of the 911 being old and newer technologies now allow for newer cars to be more competitive. ....SNIP....

 

I'd argue that if you really built a old 911 to GTS spec, you could probably be competitive. Aero, better suspension geometry, driveline upgrades, etc etc...

 

Scott- Herein lies the problem. This is one of the (main- IMHO) reasons why GTS is losing drivers and why people aren't flocking to NASA from PCA and BMWCCA. Back to the original question of how to get more drivers into GTS (and NASA for that matter).... the rules need to be changed so that drivers wanting to race in PCA and BMWCCA can also be competitive in the same car in NASA. Maybe it's torque, maybe its big brakes, maybe its aero, maybe it's not...I think there are many reasons. I know that a rule change is not an easy thing to do and would require a massive overhaul(revolution). But, I'll bet when you cut away all the chaff, all the BS, all the smack-talk and finally get down to brass-tacks... and look at it from a "impartial business consultant viewpoint".....that's what the conclusion will be.

 

IF Wong is correct, then my Car is too old to be competitive and it won't ever be in NASA, unless I do something drastic like Fiberglass body panels, different motor, Crazy Aero package, etc. But, again, why bother, when I could just buy another car that's already competitive and is newer.

 

I am all about learning, tweaking setup, analyzing data, getting coaching. Heck, I am a race engineer/professional coach as my full time job! That's what I do 50 hours a week. I have gotten a ton of coaching and my coach told me that when I was running consistent 2:15, 2:16's at VIR, I was at the limit of what the car could do and no more coaching was necessary. Well, that's my consistent times now. I have tweaked setup, corner balance religiously, etc. read and try to figure out as much as possible. I love that stuff! Heck, I have even have a custom set of BIG brakes coming for the Porsche that Performance Friction is making for me so I can see if that's the issue! Don't get me wrong either, its not just the car as I am not a pro driver, and can always improve, but to drive a 2:09 at VIR? 7 seconds faster? That's a different class altogether from my GTS2 car, no matter if Skeen, Jason, DJ, or Schumi is driving it.

 

I love the family in NASA, I enjoy the people, the races and the competitiveness, and want to stay, but it's sounding more and more like I won't ever be competitive in a 88' 911 AND still be able to race in PCA in stock class.

 

Real change sometimes takes a revolution.

 

The Question Remains: How do we get more people into GTS? First, find out why they are leaving and then figure out why they won't come back or join up again and why new ones won't start up.

 

Hunter

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jcrist

If your coach says that's all you can get out of your car, you need a new coach.

 

No one is flocking anywhere, I'm heavily involved with BMW CR and racer development as a key person in our race school program. We are trying very hard to get BMW to adopt power to weight classing. Your argument holds little water as power to weight is the best option. Try being in a prepared/spec bmw class were you have to have a $12k motor to compete with SIMILAR SKILLED DRIVERS. Hunter I swear, this argument is the epitome of the wrong way of thinking. DE guys get the cams, awesome /intake, exhaust, hot chip, or whatever - all before spending a dime on safety, brakes or coaching. I don't want to have to build a crazy motor to be able to fit into the rules. I don't want a guy beating me because he can afford an Epic motorsports build.

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D_Eclipse9916

but it's sounding more and more like I won't ever be competitive in a 88' 911 AND still be able to race in PCA in stock class.

 

There is your problem right there. You say you wont ever be competitive, YOU CAN, but you cant run PCA stock class.

 

Cant have your cake and eat it too, until NASA/PCA/BMWCCA decides to all play together and try to increase car counts for all of them.

 

You are trying to mix a VERY limited class with an unlimited modification class with a power/weight, and I thought TTC and GTS2 were a stretch for me!

 

Solution isnt torque rule changes (why dont we do horsepower/torque counted the same?), solution in my opinion is to get PCA/BMWCCA (the two largest german groups of racers) to have similar/same rulesets. I am not sure how it will be possible. Glad I am not in that position!

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Jimax
Scott- Herein lies the problem. This is one of the (main- IMHO) reasons why GTS is losing drivers and why people aren't flocking to NASA from PCA and BMWCCA. Back to the original question of how to get more drivers into GTS (and NASA for that matter).... the rules need to be changed so that drivers wanting to race in PCA and BMWCCA can also be competitive in the same car in NASA.

 

With all do respect, you have it backwards, Hunter. The only rule GTS has is power-to-weight. If you're being held back in GTS because you lack aero, brakes, fancy tunes, or are laden with additional weight, it's because PCA is holding you back, not NASA, and definitely not GTS. GTS is wide open.

 

I'm in GTS2. I was the black BMW in front of you in February.

 

Jim

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JSG1901

Great conversation, guys. It's an interesting and difficult problem. For the record, although I'm sure there are folks who have left NASA, on the whole GTS is growing, not shrinking, even with the poor economy of the last couple years. I just want there to be even more.

 

Also, regarding the PCA Stock vs GTS battle, I think it's true that you probably can't win with a PCA stock car. Of, if you can, it is only certain cars from certain classes. I certainly couldn't do it with my car back when it was F Stock legal (now E Stock).

 

While it would be great to match up to the PCA (or BMWCCA) classes, it's not really feasible. In PCA alone there are 12 stock classes, 7 spec classes, 5 classes for Cup Cars, and 14 more for the rest of the race cars. That's 38 classes, just for Porsches. Not surprisingly, they won't all fit nicely and neatly into six (or seven or eight) GTS classes.

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Personally I would love to have the car I am putting together optimized for both NASA GTS2 and PCA E class. But to max out for GTS2, moves it too far outside what I can do with it for PCA. I will still get the car out this summer for a GTS2 race.

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smdub
sounding more and more like I won't ever be competitive in a 88' 911 AND still be able to race in PCA in stock class.

 

Agreed. NASA's GTS rules are roughly equivalent to PCA's GT class. You wouldn't be competitive in GTS-5R w/ a E stock car either.

 

I don't think GTS fields are shrinking either. Seems to be a very popular class.

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